Author Topic: What is science?  (Read 1745 times)

Sriram

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What is science?
« on: June 30, 2022, 10:19:03 AM »
H everyone,

A nice short video making a very valid point about science.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGDbpg1nG8Y

Cheers.

Sriram

ProfessorDavey

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Re: What is science?
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2022, 03:57:12 PM »
H everyone,

A nice short video making a very valid point about science.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGDbpg1nG8Y

Cheers.

Sriram
Don't think this chap has much understanding of science at all.

He keeps going on about peer reviewed papers - well that doesn't define science at all - but it does help validate the credibility of scientific findings. And science is based on observation and repeatability - peer review will robustly assess those key features and if they aren't present authors will be sent away to gain further data until and unless those criteria are satisfied.

His notion that science and academia can't make big leaps and challenge existing thinking is complete non-sense - virtually all of our big leaps came from traditional science, whether structure of DNA, theory of evolution, black holes, graphene etc etc. All science and academia requires is that these claims are justified and if they are then they are accepted. What science and academia have low thresholds for is unjustified, unsubstantiated hand-waving claims - these sit (at best) in the world of hypotheses - and the appropriate response is "come back when you have tested your hypothesis and have data to substantiate it, or not'.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: What is science?
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2022, 04:05:25 PM »
H everyone,

A nice short video making a very valid point about science.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGDbpg1nG8Y

Cheers.

Sriram
Looking at both his video and his Wiki page I don't think he understands the difference between science and innovation either.

Enki

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Re: What is science?
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2022, 05:19:32 PM »
Savory's pet idea is that we need more cows, not fewer, grazing on the arid and semiarid land surface, and we should have an holistic approach which essentially means we keep the cows moving to mimic the behaviour of the original wild herds. in this way we can combat climate change.

Unfortunately his approach has been critically examined by a large variety of ecological scientists and been found wanting, so it comes as no surprise that he rejects the science and the scientific method which undoes the vagueness surrounding his 'holistic' methods and his anecdotal (and sometimes misrepresenting photographic) evidence.

One such scientific study by the Briske team led to Briske actually rejecting a request for an interview saying "Frankly, I have grown weary of the grandiose and unsubstantiated claims of Mr. Savory".

The following, for me, is a reasonable definition of science.

Quote
Science is the pursuit and application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world following a systematic methodology based on evidence.

Scientific methodology includes the following:

Objective observation: Measurement and data (possibly although not necessarily using mathematics as a tool)

Evidence
Experiment and/or observation as benchmarks for testing hypotheses
Induction: reasoning to establish general rules or conclusions drawn from facts or examples
Repetition
Critical analysis
Verification and testing: critical exposure to scrutiny, peer review and assessment

It would suggest that Savory decries this approach simply because it undermines his total belief in the veracity of his own hypothesis.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: What is science?
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2022, 10:30:17 AM »
Savory's pet idea is that we need more cows, not fewer, grazing on the arid and semiarid land surface, and we should have an holistic approach which essentially means we keep the cows moving to mimic the behaviour of the original wild herds. in this way we can combat climate change.

Unfortunately his approach has been critically examined by a large variety of ecological scientists and been found wanting, so it comes as no surprise that he rejects the science and the scientific method which undoes the vagueness surrounding his 'holistic' methods and his anecdotal (and sometimes misrepresenting photographic) evidence.

One such scientific study by the Briske team led to Briske actually rejecting a request for an interview saying "Frankly, I have grown weary of the grandiose and unsubstantiated claims of Mr. Savory".

The following, for me, is a reasonable definition of science.

It would suggest that Savory decries this approach simply because it undermines his total belief in the veracity of his own hypothesis.
He does come across as someone who doesn't like to be criticised and challenged, nor to expect to have to justify his assertions with evidence. So I suspect when he makes his highly patronising claim about young scientists only being interested in peer reviewed papers the reality is that these people simply won't accept his assertions and claims without evidence.

I note too that he isn't really a scientist at all - as far as I can see his scientific career got no further than a BSc in Biology

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: What is science?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2022, 05:14:21 PM »
He does come across as someone who doesn't like to be criticised and challenged, nor to expect to have to justify his assertions with evidence. So I suspect when he makes his highly patronising claim about young scientists only being interested in peer reviewed papers the reality is that these people simply won't accept his assertions and claims without evidence.

I note too that he isn't really a scientist at all - as far as I can see his scientific career got no further than a BSc in Biology
So let me get this straight. A scientific career involves the gaining of increasingly higher academic awards.....I wonder if there are Nobel prizewinning scientists going “Of course he’s only got a doctorate so he’s not a real scientist.”.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: What is science?
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2022, 06:42:16 PM »
So let me get this straight. A scientific career involves the gaining of increasingly higher academic awards.....I wonder if there are Nobel prizewinning scientists going “Of course he’s only got a doctorate so he’s not a real scientist.”.
Nope - it involves engaging in scientific research in an appropriately professional manner, which as with other professions involves being appropriately trained - typically involving at least a research degree.

Would you describe someone as having a medical career if they weren't appropriately medically qualified, or a legal career if they weren't legally qualified.

This guy has a Bachelor degree in Biology and as far as I can see has never engaged in scientific research as a profession.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: What is science?
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2022, 07:51:51 PM »
Nope - it involves engaging in scientific research in an appropriately professional manner, which as with other professions involves being appropriately trained - typically involving at least a research degree.

Would you describe someone as having a medical career if they weren't appropriately medically qualified, or a legal career if they weren't legally qualified.

This guy has a Bachelor degree in Biology and as far as I can see has never engaged in scientific research as a profession.
You seem to be equating having a BSc with not having a qualification. I worked happily in water research for years alongside PhD,BSc, HND, and city and Guildsmen and women doing important and seminal scientific work using scientific methodology and  achieving scientific conclusions.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: What is science?
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2022, 08:56:36 AM »
You seem to be equating having a BSc with not having a qualification. I worked happily in water research for years alongside PhD,BSc, HND, and city and Guildsmen and women doing important and seminal scientific work using scientific methodology and  achieving scientific conclusions.
Just as while there are all sorts of people involved in healthcare not all are professional doctors, there are all sorts of people involved in research, not all are professional researchers. To be the latter involves the ability to develop hypotheses and design research programmes to test those hypotheses and to be able to interpret and present the data arising from the work. Someone whose role is merely to perform a particular test but does not have the skills and expertise required for those other elements isn't a professional research, hence their roles are often described as 'research assistant', 'research technician' etc.

A PhD is a training programme requiring a student to learn how to develop hypotheses and design studies to test them, under the supervision of an existing professional researcher (or research team) - hence most people who have those skills have been trained to PhD level.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2022, 09:00:20 AM by ProfessorDavey »

Sriram

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Re: What is science?
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2022, 05:17:26 PM »


I don't think that many of the pioneers in science such as Copernicus, Newton, Galileo, Mendel, Darwin and others can be called professional scientists in the category that you state.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: What is science?
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2022, 09:20:19 AM »

I don't think that many of the pioneers in science such as Copernicus, Newton, Galileo, Mendel, Darwin and others can be called professional scientists in the category that you state.
That's a bit of a daft comment Sriram, as for the people you mentioned there wasn't an established route into becoming a professional scientific researcher, so it is unlikely they would have followed that route ... as it didn't exist.

However, that said, certainly for Mendel and Darwin - they looked to follow as close to what we would now consider to be training in scientific research as was possible at the time. Each worked closely with an expert mentor in their chosen field during their formative years in research - in the case of Mendel this was Johann Karl Nestler and for Darwin this was John Stevens Henslow. In a different era I suspect each would have completed a PhD under the supervision of their respective mentors.

Also worth noting that the people you mention were mavericks, but not in the manner that Savory is a maverick. These people were using robust scientific method in the face of a world that routinely rejected such method to explain the world relying rather on un-evidenced faith. Copernicus, Newton, Galileo, Mendel, Darwin are soul-mates of modern professional scientists. By contrast Savory rejects and dismisses robust scientific method - he is a maverick because, thankfully, we have now accepted that robust scientific method is the best way to understand the nature of the world.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2022, 09:44:42 AM by ProfessorDavey »

Sriram

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Re: What is science?
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2022, 10:17:18 AM »

As always you are missing the point. Its about thinking out of the box. Lateral thinking.

Scientific training 'boxes in' ones thinking.

jeremyp

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Re: What is science?
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2022, 10:51:32 AM »
As always you are missing the point. Its about thinking out of the box. Lateral thinking.
If you are going to make radical new discoveries, you have to know what the conventional wisdom is and why the conventional wisdom is as it is. You also have to be aware of a problem that needs solving. You also need to be aware of experimental results and be able to, at least propose tests for your ideas.

Knowing the above is what PD means by "scientific training".

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Scientific training 'boxes in' ones thinking.

There's no point in unboxing your thinking if it means your ideas are wrong.
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Enki

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Re: What is science?
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2022, 11:22:54 AM »
As always you are missing the point. Its about thinking out of the box. Lateral thinking.

Scientific training 'boxes in' ones thinking.

Actually thinking outside the box can be very limiting because the mindset it produces is that there is a box to think outside of. Far better, in my estimation, is to think without regard to a box at all.

Then, when an hypothesis is reached, that's when scientific methodology kicks in to establish whether it has legs or not.

As regards Savory's ideas there seems to be too many fault lines when science is applied to make them particularly worthwhile.
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