Author Topic: The Queen is dead.  (Read 21589 times)

Steve H

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2022, 01:36:26 PM »
I find myself with very mixed feelings about the death of the Queen. I am much more upset at the news than I expected to be, and I know 96 years old, in failing health, loss of husband recently - what did I expect?

I don't believe that a modern democracy should have the anachronism that is the Royal family as any part of it.

And yet, I can't help but mourn the loss of a woman who has been there my whole life, whose commitment to duty and service cannot be faulted.

I think (tried to find it but couldn't when I looked) I said on here some time ago that we struck lucky with Elizabeth II. And we really did. She was, whether you approve of the monarchy or not, an excellent representative of our countries and a positive influence in many ways.

Did she have faults? Of course. Was she obscenely privileged? Again, of course. Still, I would argue she used that privilege to altogether greater and better effect than many of our privileged politicians.

So I find myself mourning the Queen, still thinking we would be better off without a monarchy, and feeling both confused and very sad.
My feelings exactly - excellent post. As a long-time republican, I'm surprised at how sad I feel - i.e. a bit sad. I shouldn't feel sad at all, but I do.
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Outrider

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2022, 02:39:58 PM »
My feelings exactly - excellent post. As a long-time republican, I'm surprised at how sad I feel - i.e. a bit sad. I shouldn't feel sad at all, but I do.

An elderly lady has died who has spent an entire lifetime suppressing her sense of self to portray a passively disinterested head of state - I'm a little sad for her, too. I've long been of the opinion that the monarchy does a disservice both to us and to the country, but it's a testament to the Queen's capacity at the role that we still have one. To have navigated the various waters she has without running the ship ashore is a testament to her.

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Udayana

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2022, 02:41:17 PM »
That's a different issue to Steve's idea that it was uncharitable to raise now. And there would be many who would have said it would have been uncharitable to mention before the Queen's death.

My tack was more about when a discussion on the constitution should be held ... maybe belongs in a separate thread anyway.

 
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Nearly Sane

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2022, 02:45:49 PM »
This is an excellent piece from Simon Schama.

https://archive.ph/nDAtF

Nearly Sane

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2022, 03:16:17 PM »
No Waitrose delivery slots being offered for Monday 19th.

Nearly Sane

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2022, 04:04:39 PM »
I wondered whether the fact that my mother who is in her 90s has had her own health issues of late might have an effect on my reaction to the Queen's death but it seems not. I ferl neither sad nor even a feeling of the end of an era. I find many of the reactions from the sadly vicious attacks to the sycophantic maunderings just bizarre.

I don't see why expressing republican sentiments at this time is in any sense disrespectful, and while I understand that expressing those won't make a difference in the short term but shutting up about it seems counterproductive to me in the long term because it tacitly buys it to the idea of there being inappropriate times. The very fact that this is the first death in 70 years makes it to me a significant time for the discussion to be had, not least because else there is a flood of encomiums to the institution unchallenged.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2022, 04:26:49 PM by Nearly Sane »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2022, 04:47:31 PM »
More's the pity: pity that the institution of the monarchy didn't die with her.
This looks penned by one that wants things not just to go but to be destroyed.

As an affective force, British republicanism lies somewhere between Cornish nationalism and Yorkshire nationalism.

SqueakyVoice

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2022, 06:34:10 PM »

Udayana

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2022, 07:19:32 PM »
I wondered whether the fact that my mother who is in her 90s has had her own health issues of late might have an effect on my reaction to the Queen's death but it seems not. I ferl neither sad nor even a feeling of the end of an era. I find many of the reactions from the sadly vicious attacks to the sycophantic maunderings just bizarre.

I don't see why expressing republican sentiments at this time is in any sense disrespectful, and while I understand that expressing those won't make a difference in the short term but shutting up about it seems counterproductive to me in the long term because it tacitly buys it to the idea of there being inappropriate times. The very fact that this is the first death in 70 years makes it to me a significant time for the discussion to be had, not least because else there is a flood of encomiums to the institution unchallenged.

In much the same boat: Both mother and mother-in-law in their 90s with health problems, so not unsympathetic to women in that position, but I feel no particular impact from the death of the Queen. Looking back over the years I think the only point at which her existence has had any relevance to me was as a figurehead, a picture on the wall, for loyalty when I was a scout.

However, I can see how, as suggested by jeremyp earlier, people who do feel an impact are unlikely to engage seriously in a discussion of republicanism or constitutional reform at this time or on a channel where they are trying to express their emotions.   
   
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Nearly Sane

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2022, 09:12:44 PM »
Beyond parody

Gordon

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2022, 06:53:29 AM »
I agree with this - but it won't happen because, it seems to me, the subservient forelock-tuggers won't let it happen.

Quote
Charles III’s coronation, set for next year, cannot be a copy of his mother’s, a ceremony whose authority was derived from the Anglican church where the aristocracy paid homage to the crown. The past is another country. Should not parliament take advantage of this period to consider the constitutional and legal framework of the monarchy in a formal and measured manner? If done by a joint committee, no government would be beholden to its outcome. A chance to rethink rarely arises in a constitutional monarchy. A new king, and a new prime minister, ought to seize the opportunity.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/sep/09/the-guardian-view-on-king-charles-iii-a-central-character-in-historys-new-chapter

Steve H

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2022, 07:49:06 AM »
Good tribute from Johnson, even if he is a narcissistic, psychopathic, mendacious arsehole. Like his anecdote about the Middle-Eastern head of state at London 2012.
I came to realise that every time we recognise something human in creatures, we are also recognising something creaturely in ourselves. That is central to the rejection of human supremacism as the pernicious doctrine it is.
Robert Macfarlane

Steve H

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2022, 08:03:46 AM »
I wonder if William will have a ceremonial investiture as Prince of Wales, as Charles did in 1969.
I came to realise that every time we recognise something human in creatures, we are also recognising something creaturely in ourselves. That is central to the rejection of human supremacism as the pernicious doctrine it is.
Robert Macfarlane

Nearly Sane

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2022, 09:38:16 AM »
In much the same boat: Both mother and mother-in-law in their 90s with health problems, so not unsympathetic to women in that position, but I feel no particular impact from the death of the Queen. Looking back over the years I think the only point at which her existence has had any relevance to me was as a figurehead, a picture on the wall, for loyalty when I was a scout.

However, I can see how, as suggested by jeremyp earlier, people who do feel an impact are unlikely to engage seriously in a discussion of republicanism or constitutional reform at this time or on a channel where they are trying to express their emotions.   
   

I agree with that but that's ignoring my point that by just shutting up you cede the entire conversation at a time of change to those saying how marvellous the institution is, and that's problematic. A friend is on a FB soup making group, and on Thursday, one of the admins said people shouldn't post soup recipes 'out of respect'. I doubt no matter how persuasive my arguments might be that I sm ever going to win such a person over to republicanism, but for those who are winnable, a flag that there is a conversation to be had is, I think, necessary else we end up back where it was argued to be rude to mention it when the Queen was still going.


One of the difficulties that has to be got round is that peooke could feel that it would be rude to talk about what happens to the monarchy because Chuck 3 has waited so long.

To an extent, I view this as all a bit of an intellectual exercise since it seems unlikely that we will see a change in the foreseeable future, and it's never been that high up my list of objectives, but I've seen enough much more fringe beluefs rise and become central over the years to think that it is not worth making the arguments.

Nearly Sane

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2022, 10:08:02 AM »
.

Aruntraveller

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2022, 10:46:17 AM »
Yep.

That is definitely me!
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2022, 11:00:23 AM »
Good tribute from Johnson, even if he is a narcissistic, psychopathic, mendacious arsehole. Like his anecdote about the Middle-Eastern head of state at London 2012.
I agree and am one of those he describes as affected by this event and wondering why. I think it is the realisation of having something, a point of constancy, and only noticing it when it’s gone.

I’m more than willing to discuss the pros and cons and arguments for a republic which given the length of the reign should be encyclopaedic by now.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2022, 11:06:16 AM »


Charles III’s coronation, set for next year, cannot be a copy of his mother’s, a ceremony whose authority was derived from the Anglican church where the aristocracy paid homage to the crown.
 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/sep/09/the-guardian-view-on-king-charles-iii-a-central-character-in-historys-new-chapter
Where would the authority for a republic be derived?

Nearly Sane

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2022, 11:26:21 AM »
Where would the authority for a republic be derived?
Literally it's in the word 'republic'.

Udayana

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2022, 11:50:28 AM »
I agree with that but that's ignoring my point that by just shutting up you cede the entire conversation at a time of change to those saying how marvellous the institution is, and that's problematic. A friend is on a FB soup making group, and on Thursday, one of the admins said people shouldn't post soup recipes 'out of respect'. I doubt no matter how persuasive my arguments might be that I sm ever going to win such a person over to republicanism, but for those who are winnable, a flag that there is a conversation to be had is, I think, necessary else we end up back where it was argued to be rude to mention it when the Queen was still going.


One of the difficulties that has to be got round is that peooke could feel that it would be rude to talk about what happens to the monarchy because Chuck 3 has waited so long.

To an extent, I view this as all a bit of an intellectual exercise since it seems unlikely that we will see a change in the foreseeable future, and it's never been that high up my list of objectives, but I've seen enough much more fringe beluefs rise and become central over the years to think that it is not worth making the arguments.

Agreed, and there is no case for just shutting up, just that maybe conversations should occur "in parallel".

Charles III is in place and unless there is some kind of revolution or coup I expect he will reign until his death in, possibly, around 20 years. I don't think the institution of the monarchy can be discussed or resolved without having the constitution put on a written basis, with appropriate reform wrt. HoL, devolution/independence of the UK nations and so on.

There will be a general election in around 2 years, I would like whoever wins that election to have a plan that will enable constitutional questions to be resolved democratically. I think my preference would be for a citizens assembly to be formed to look at the issue and make recommendations over a long term, independently of political considerations.
   
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #45 on: September 10, 2022, 11:59:34 AM »
Literally it's in the word 'republic'.
So a Republic gets it's authority from itself......circular argument.

Nearly Sane

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #46 on: September 10, 2022, 12:29:49 PM »
So a Republic gets it's authority from itself......circular argument.
  You are showing here you don't understand the term 'circular argument', the term 'republic' and quite possibly 'authority'.

Nearly Sane

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #47 on: September 10, 2022, 12:31:52 PM »
Agreed, and there is no case for just shutting up, just that maybe conversations should occur "in parallel".

Charles III is in place and unless there is some kind of revolution or coup I expect he will reign until his death in, possibly, around 20 years. I don't think the institution of the monarchy can be discussed or resolved without having the constitution put on a written basis, with appropriate reform wrt. HoL, devolution/independence of the UK nations and so on.

There will be a general election in around 2 years, I would like whoever wins that election to have a plan that will enable constitutional questions to be resolved democratically. I think my preference would be for a citizens assembly to be formed to look at the issue and make recommendations over a long term, independently of political considerations.
   
I don't really get what you mean by 'in parallel' here. 

Gordon

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #48 on: September 10, 2022, 12:34:32 PM »
I see that pageantagious flummery is in full swing now: my term for what afflicts those who, on being infected with a liking for pageantry, have no resistance to it and who fail to spot that it really is no more than pointless window-dressing and/or entertainment - but with added lashings of faux gravitas.

 
« Last Edit: September 10, 2022, 02:36:07 PM by Gordon »

Gordon

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2022, 12:37:38 PM »
So a Republic gets it's authority from itself......circular argument.

Not even wrong, Vlad.