Author Topic: Football 2023 - 2024  (Read 27919 times)

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Football 2023 - 2024
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2023, 12:26:47 PM »
Really - I think that Harland is absolutely in Mbappe's class and has made the shift from a small club to a big one competing at the top level astonishingly well.
I don't disagree with the second part, but Mbappé is Messi/Nymar level. Haaland is not.


This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Football 2023 - 2024
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2023, 12:28:33 PM »
Side note: Haaland is qualified to play cricket for Yorkshire.
So is anyone - Yorkshire dumped the requirement that their players had to have been born in Yorkshire years ago - in fact over 30 years ago, so before Harland was even born.

The more interesting point being that Harland could have played football for England.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Football 2023 - 2024
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2023, 12:33:08 PM »
I don't disagree with the second part, but Mbappé is Messi/Nymar level. Haaland is not.
Again you are comparing apples and oranges - Mbappe is more of a Messi type player, but that doesn't mean he is necessarily better. Harland has been smashing records that have stood for decades - which I think is notable as you are comparing Mbappe with others who are still playing. Mbappe is, potentially, a one in a generation player of his type (albeit the awards this year may declare that Vini Jn, who is a similar type of player is currently better than Mbappe)  - if Harland carries on as he is he could easily become the best striker for many generations.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 65801
Re: Football 2023 - 2024
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2023, 12:33:53 PM »
Really - I think that Harland is absolutely in Mbappe's class and has made the shift from a small club to a big one competing at the top level astonishingly well. He's a different type of player, so to an extent you are comparing apples with oranges, but currently I think it is pretty hard to argue that Harland and Mbappe aren't in the same class.

Mbappe hasn't really enhanced his position in the 22/23 season while Harland has, frankly, blitzed it both domestically and in Europe.

Will be interesting to see who win's the various player of the season awards for the past year - suspect Harland and Vini Jn, plus possibly DeBruijn will be ahead of Mbappe.
If scoring a hattrick in a World Cup final doesn't really enhance your position, then you are on another level to Haaland.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Football 2023 - 2024
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2023, 12:49:09 PM »
If scoring a hattrick in a World Cup final doesn't really enhance your position, then you are on another level to Haaland.
I meant in club football. You can't really compare their respective international records as one plays for a top side, full of other stars - the other for Norway.

His record last season for PSG hasn't really enhanced his reputation, has it. Again failing to get beyond the round of 16 in the Champions League.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Football 2023 - 2024
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2023, 01:20:48 PM »
It's just business. Players are often putting money ahead of club. Don't forget top tier players are accustomed to lavish lifestyles and will be retiring in their mid thirties. They need to accumulate a lot of wealth during their careers in order to continue to live in the style to which they are accustomed.
Nope - as far as I am aware this is unprecedented. Sure - for yonks we've had players at the end of their careers signing for big money to play in uncompetitive leagues - e.g. Japan (Lineker), USA (Best and others). But this has always been a swan song move where players don't really mind playing in what are effectively exhibition matches, as they were making a bit of last ditch money before they retired.

This is different - Mbappe is at the peak of his career - do correct me if I'm wrong but I cannot think of another example of a top player at the peak of their careers making a move of this type.

Players often make decisions that are bizarre from a footballing perspective but make financial sense. For example, anybody moving to Real Madrid (or previously Barcelona) who isn't absolutely exceptional risks never getting a game. They do it anyway for the pay cheque.
Well, firstly I guess it is debatable whether a squad player at Real Madrid gets paid much more than a 'first on the team sheet' for Crystal Palace (as an example). But I think that in most cases players will think they will play when they sign (even if in reality they don't) - perhaps not hugely regularly, but sufficiently to get winners medals with Real Madrid rather than nothing with Crystal Palace. Now that may be a few substitute appearances - but the possibility of coming on as a sub for Real Madrid in a winning Champions League final might be rather more of a motivation than just the money.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 65801
Re: Football 2023 - 2024
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2023, 03:07:51 PM »
Seen elsewhere


There was once a lad called MBappe
Whose life at PSG was unhappy
So he left his chateau
And followed the dough
To a league that's no better than crappy


jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Football 2023 - 2024
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2023, 02:05:59 PM »
Again you are comparing apples and oranges
I think you'll find I'm comparing footballers with footballers.

Quote
- Mbappe is more of a Messi type player, but that doesn't mean he is necessarily better.
True, but he is better. If you had ten people for your team and for the eleventh you had the choice between Haaland and Mbappé, you'd choose the latter every time.

Quote
Harland has been smashing records that have stood for decades

That's because he is a striker. Most of the records are about scoring goals.

Quote
- which I think is notable as you are comparing Mbappe with others who are still playing. Mbappe is, potentially, a one in a generation player of his type (albeit the awards this year may declare that Vini Jn, who is a similar type of player is currently better than Mbappe)  - if Harland carries on as he is he could easily become the best striker for many generations.
Mbappé is 24 and Haaland is 23. Neither have reached their peak yet.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Football 2023 - 2024
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2023, 02:08:41 PM »
Nope - as far as I am aware this is unprecedented.
Really? Players are always putting money before club. This is why they can be bought by Real Madrid and Barceno (well, not so much the latter anymore) despite being unlikely to get any much team football.

 
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Football 2023 - 2024
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2023, 02:11:36 PM »
Really? Players are always putting money before club.
The unprecedented part (not that is is going to happen) would be a player at the peak of their career moving to a club in a non established league, that happens to have money. The current example is Saudi, but in previous times it was Japan or the USA. Top players have seen out the end of their careers in those leagues - and earning huge sums to do so - but I'm unaware of anyone doing so in the peak of their career.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Football 2023 - 2024
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2023, 02:23:54 PM »
Really? Players are always putting money before club. This is why they can be bought by Real Madrid and Barceno (well, not so much the latter anymore) despite being unlikely to get any much team football.
So you are a mindreader then Jeremy - knowing exactly why a player might chose to move clubs. Remember that particularly now football isn't just a team game but a squad game so I suspect those that do move to the big clubs will expect to play a decent number of games as part of that squad rotation. And that may well be sufficient to win a host of winners medals that they'd have no hope of winning if they'd stayed at a small club.

Here is a good example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julián_Álvarez_(footballer)

He hasn't played all that much, but seems to be a key member of the squad. Did he move from River Plate to Man City just for the massively increased wages - or perhaps because he thought he might be a key member of a squad that would be playing in top competitions and could win a treble (as happened). Add to that the value of playing alongside the great players and top coaches that you get at a big club in terms of improving as a player.

Given that becoming a top player requires not only supreme talent but total commitment and dedication, and in many cases significant personal sacrifice (e.g. Messi whose family moved continents to give him a chance) I think it is insulting in the extreme to suggest that all players are interested in is the money.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2023, 03:11:06 PM by ProfessorDavey »

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Football 2023 - 2024
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2023, 03:41:43 PM »
Yawn.

It's all moot now, but had Mbappé gone to Saudi Arabia it would be for a shed load of money and it would have been one year. There's no reason to presume he wouldn't be snapped up by a top club when he got back. In fact it's ludicrous to suggest otherwise.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Football 2023 - 2024
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2023, 04:04:21 PM »
Yawn.

It's all moot now, but had Mbappé gone to Saudi Arabia it would be for a shed load of money and it would have been one year. There's no reason to presume he wouldn't be snapped up by a top club when he got back. In fact it's ludicrous to suggest otherwise.
That he wasn't even prepared to contemplate that move (despite it earning him far more in the 23/24 season than he will earn if he stays at PSG, nor even if he moves to Real or another big club) rather undermines your argument that footballers are only interested in the money.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Football 2023 - 2024
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2023, 04:12:38 PM »
Yawn.

It's all moot now, but had Mbappé gone to Saudi Arabia it would be for a shed load of money and it would have been one year. There's no reason to presume he wouldn't be snapped up by a top club when he got back. In fact it's ludicrous to suggest otherwise.
The Mbappe saga demonstrates that was PSG 'only interested in the money' not the player.

Out of interest if this is correct:

One of the bigger English signings of the summer - MacAllister from Brighton to Liverpool involves him taking a pay cut - £63k last season at Brighton to £48k a week next season at Liverpool.

https://salarysport.com/football/player/alexis-mac-allister/
https://salarysport.com/football/premier-league/liverpool-f.c./

He'll probably be less likely to play every game at Liverpool, clearly he isn't doing it for the money. Maybe, just maybe (whisper it quietly so Jeremy doesn't hear) he's making the move because he thinks he might have a better chance of winning trophies at Liverpool than Brighton.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2023, 04:15:38 PM by ProfessorDavey »

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Football 2023 - 2024
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2023, 10:37:47 AM »
That he wasn't even prepared to contemplate that move
How do you know he didn't contemplate it? Now you are the mind reader.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Football 2023 - 2024
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2023, 10:42:19 AM »
One of the bigger English signings of the summer - MacAllister from Brighton to Liverpool involves him taking a pay cut - £63k last season at Brighton to £48k a week next season at Liverpool.

https://salarysport.com/football/player/alexis-mac-allister/
https://salarysport.com/football/premier-league/liverpool-f.c./

He'll probably be less likely to play every game at Liverpool, clearly he isn't doing it for the money. Maybe, just maybe (whisper it quietly so Jeremy doesn't hear) he's making the move because he thinks he might have a better chance of winning trophies at Liverpool than Brighton.

Is that supposed to prove anything? Footballers move clubs for all sorts of reasons including financial ones. I don't know why you think that's a problem.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Football 2023 - 2024
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2023, 11:18:26 AM »
Footballers move clubs for all sorts of reasons including financial ones.
Hmm - says the guy you previously said:

'Players are always putting money before club.'

Now you appear to have changed your tune to:

'Players are sometimes putting money before club.'

And if that is your view I don't disagree - but I disagree with your inference that footballers are all money grabbing sods always putting money before club.

And actually the Mbappe saga is exactly the opposite - he's refused to contemplate a move that would earn him far more than he is currently earning at PSG. And it appears he really wants to move to Real Madrid, and to do so he will almost certainly have to take a pay cut as Real are very unlikely to be able to afford the wages he is currently on at PSG (he is currently earning over twice as much as the top earning Real player), let alone what he would have earned had he been prepared to put money before club by moving to Saudi.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 65801
Re: Football 2023 - 2024
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2023, 11:22:19 AM »
Hmm - says the guy you previously said:

'Players are always putting money before club.'

Now you appear to have changed your tune to:

'Players are sometimes putting money before club.'

And if that is your view I don't disagree - but I disagree with your inference that footballers are all money grabbing sods always putting money before club.

And actually the Mbappe saga is exactly the opposite - he's refused to contemplate a move that would earn him far more than he is currently earning at PSG. And it appears he really wants to move to Real Madrid, and to do so he will almost certainly have to take a pay cut as Real are very unlikely to be able to afford the wages he is currently on at PSG (he is currently earning over twice as much as the top earning Real player), let alone what he would have earned had he been prepared to put money before club by moving to Saudi.
Just to help you out with your understanding of English


https://www.phrasemix.com/phrases/someone-is-always-doing-something

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Football 2023 - 2024
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2023, 11:34:27 AM »
Hmm - says the guy you previously said:

'Players are always putting money before club.'

That's a figure of speech, it doesn't mean every single instance of a player transfer ever was done purely for money. I apologise if English is not your native language and that idiom was unfamiliar to you.

Edit: I see I have been ninja'd by NS.

This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Football 2023 - 2024
« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2023, 12:40:54 PM »
That's a figure of speech, it doesn't mean every single instance of a player transfer ever was done purely for money. I apologise if English is not your native language and that idiom was unfamiliar to you.

Edit: I see I have been ninja'd by NS.
Bit patronising.

Even with the idiom I still disagree as it still implies that this is the motivation in many/most cases, even if not literally always.

Top footballers get paid crazy amounts of money but I don't think getting even more money is the motivation for moving clubs in most cases. Players move to enhance their careers - that may be to play more, to have a better chance of winning trophies, to be at a club that will give them more opportunity to advance as a player. Being paid loads is, of course, a nice additional consequence but not the primary motivation in my opinion.

Don't forget that to even get to be a professional (let alone a top professional) requires years of massive commitment as well as talent. To imply that as soon as a player attains that level that money suddenly becomes the key doesn't really seem plausible.

Sure there are examples where player move primarily for the money, where the club they move to won't give them the other things I've described. But that largely seems to occur at the end of player's careers. So, yup, Jordan Henderson (age 33) has just moved to Saudi for the money (he's over tripled his wages), but I doubt that money, rather than the opportunity to enhance his career, win trophies etc would have been the prime motivation when he moved from Sunderland to Liverpool at the age of 21.

And if Mbappe moves to Real, or Barcelona, or Inter Milan, or Man U, or Liverpool, or even Man City etc, etc he will almost certainly have to take a pay cut as none of those clubs (even Man City) come close to being able to match PSG on player salaries.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Football 2023 - 2024
« Reply #46 on: July 28, 2023, 12:57:33 PM »
True, but he is better. If you had ten people for your team and for the eleventh you had the choice between Haaland and Mbappé, you'd choose the latter every time.
They are both forwards but of different types. If I lacked an out and out striker in my first 10 players, then I'd choose Haaland over Mbappe every time. If on the other hand I need a Salah type forward, well I'd choose Mbappe over Haaland. If I lacked a goalkeeper ... well.

That's because he is a striker. Most of the records are about scoring goals.
Mbappe is also a forward, just of a different type.

Mbappé is 24 and Haaland is 23. Neither have reached their peak yet.
True, which is why both look to move to clubs that will enhance their careers, make them better players, win more trophies etc. Haaland did that a year ago (and has been astonishingly successful with that move), Mbappe looks as if that move may be this summer or next summer.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2023, 02:16:38 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 65801
Re: Football 2023 - 2024
« Reply #47 on: July 28, 2023, 06:44:01 PM »
Juventus kicked out of European Conference League. And presumably Chelsea would have been too had they qualified.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66342566

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Football 2023 - 2024
« Reply #48 on: July 29, 2023, 02:00:24 PM »
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Football 2023 - 2024
« Reply #49 on: July 29, 2023, 02:02:14 PM »
Juventus kicked out of European Conference League. And presumably Chelsea would have been too had they qualified.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66342566

Quote
The Blues have spent around £600m on 19 new players since new owner Todd Boehly took charge of the club in May 2022
Wow. Can't say they got value for money.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply