Scottish Greens to vote on SNP power-sharing deal

[Nearly Sane]

Don't be stupid Vlad - Yousaf and for that matter Sunak, Khan (as other non christian senior politicians) haven't said they think people choosing to have sex are sinners because they aren't married, nor stated they are against gay marriage etc - then I'm sure Farquharson would be just as critical. Similarly I doubt he'd have any issue with other christian politicians whose opinions are more mainstream and not just in general terms but amongst christians (Forbes views are extreme across the spectrum of views of UK christians).

And you are also completely missing the point regarding role models - he praises "a Hindu in Downing Street, a black first minister in Cardiff, a Muslim mayor in London and a Scots Asian in Bute House" not because they are inherently more worthy than christians, but because they are trailblazers - we'd never before had leading non-christian or ethnic minority leaders. The point is that they allow people of non white ethnicity or non christian religions to aspire to be political leaders. There is no such need for christianity as we've had 'role models' of christians as PMs etc as long as we've had PMs.

Bur of course none of those individuals (the Hindu in Downing Street, a black first minister in Cardiff, a Muslim mayor in London and a Scots Asian in Bute House) hold such extreme views as Forbes, although there will be other Hindus, Muslims etc that do) - it is the extreme views of Forbes that is his focus, not her christianity.

He says Scotland should be proud of being the first Western country to have a Muslim leader. He doesn't question what views Yousaf has. They are fine because they ate Muslim according to that statement.

And you seem happy with Yousaf missing the vote on gay marriage to avoid the problems of his avowed devoutness.

[ProfessorDavey]

He says Scotland should be proud of being the first Western country to have a Muslim leader. He doesn't question what views Yousaf has. They are fine because they ate Muslim according to that statement.

Err you seem to have missed the key word - first. That's the point. Don't forget that there were all sorts of people who opposed Thatcher's views but still felt it was really significant that there had now been a first female PM - the norm that you couldn't be PM unless you were a man had been broken. That despite her views it sent a message to all women that they could aspire to be PM.

And you seem happy with Yousaf missing the vote on gay marriage to avoid the problems of his avowed devoutness.

Stop lying - where am I saying this.

Your shrill cry of 'christianophobia' when the criticism is about Forbes views is the equivalent of those who cry 'antisemitism' at anyone who criticises the views of Netanyahu. It is non-sense in both cases.

[Nearly Sane]

Err you seem to have missed the key word - first. That's the point. Don't forget that there were all sorts of people who opposed Thatcher's views but still felt it was really significant that there had now been a first female PM - the norm that you couldn't be PM unless you were a man had been broken. That despite her views it sent a message to all women that they could aspire to be PM.
Stop lying - where am I saying this.

Your shrill cry of 'christianophobia' when the criticism is about Forbes views is the equivalent of those who cry 'antisemitism' at anyone who criticises the views of Netanyahu. I tis non-sense in both cases.

Why does 'first' make a difference to the views of the person? You think a set of views make a person unfit for office but if they happen to be the first person elected with those views, you should be proud?


Where am I lying? Have you dealt with Yousaf avoiding the vote on gay marriage? Where?

[ProfessorDavey]

Why does 'first' make a difference to the views of the person?

I sometimes think that you don't even bother to read what I post.

I made the point (using Thatcher as an example) that the notion of being a trailblazer is significant even if you may not agree with the views of that trailblazer (as was the case for me with Thatcher).

How hard is it for you to understand that if there has never been an ethnic minority PM that for people from ethnic minorities to think that being PM is something they can never aspire to as regardless of their views. Effectively that their non majority ethnicity will be a deal-breaker preventing them from being elected. The first ethnic minority PM (or woman PM, or muslim PM etc, etc) breaks that glass ceiling. It demonstrates that being from an ethnic minority (or being a woman, or muslim) is no fundamental barrier ... but your views may be if they are not attractive enough to the electorate.

That's exactly what the article does - it detaches the notion of identity (black, muslim, female etc, etc) which is no longer a block to being PM etc from views, which may well still be a block unless they are sufficiently attractive to the electorate.

Are you really arguing that the election of Thatcher was not significant for the ability of women in the UK to consider that they could become PM, or that the election of election of Obama was not significant for the ability of black people in the US to consider that they could become President, regardless of whether or not you agreed with the views of Thatcher or Obama.

[ProfessorDavey]

Where am I lying? Have you dealt with Yousaf avoiding the vote on gay marriage? Where?

That's the point - I have made no comment on that matter, as it isn't relevant.

Your lie is claiming that I'm happy about something that I've never proffered an opinion on.

[Nearly Sane]

Cowardly John?

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/cowardly-john-swinney-first-minister-in-waiting-cant-keep-dodging-this-simple-question-what-is-a-woman-susan-dalgety-4615152

[Nearly Sane]

Graeme McCormick steps aside


https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy0lgnm3037o

[Nearly Sane]

Kate Forbes to be Deputy First Minister.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-68976320

[ProfessorDavey]

Kate Forbes to be Deputy First Minister.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-68976320

Is deputy First Minister a non-job in the same way that Deputy PM and US Vice President are also non-jobs?

[Nearly Sane]

Is deputy First Minister a non-job in the same way that Deputy PM and US Vice President are also non-jobs?

Pretty much, but it is symbolic, and will be seen as such by the Greens. She'll also get a cabinet post but those seem to be being announced tomorrow.

[ProfessorDavey]

Pretty much, but it is symbolic, and will be seen as such by the Greens. She'll also get a cabinet post but those seem to be being announced tomorrow.

So given that she was previously the Scottish equivalent of the chancellor of the exchequer then anything other than that will be effectively a demotion from where she was a couple of years ago.

[ProfessorDavey]

Pretty much, but it is symbolic, and will be seen as such by the Greens. She'll also get a cabinet post but those seem to be being announced tomorrow.

Why is it symbolic - it was obvious that Swinney and Forbes struck a deal whereby she got a cabinet position and in return agreed not to run for the leadership. That was clear days ago, and would have been clear to the Greens too.

The question is whether Swinney will be able to operate as a minority government for any length of time.

[Nearly Sane]

So given that she was previously the Scottish equivalent of the chancellor of the exchequer then anything other than that will be effectively a demotion from where she was a couple of years ago.

I can see her asking for the Islands and Rural Affairs role, which while it might normally be seen as a demotion, would allow her to be in some ways more powerful in terms of influence within the party.

[Nearly Sane]

Why is it symbolic - it was obvious that Swinney and Forbes struck a deal whereby she got a cabinet position and in return agreed not to run for the leadership. That was clear days ago, and would have been clear to the Greens too.

The question is whether Swinney will be able to operate as a minority government for any length of time.

Well, I was saying the DFM role is symbolic generally but it's in addition to whatever cabinet role she gets.

[ProfessorDavey]

I can see her asking for the Islands and Rural Affairs role, which while it might normally be seen as a demotion, would allow her to be in some ways more powerful in terms of influence within the party.

In other words ... err ... a demotion.

[Nearly Sane]

In other words ... err ... a demotion.

No. In other words, if she asks for it, it will make her position in the party stronger since there is seem to be a split between the urban and rural. Things aren't always black and white.

[ProfessorDavey]

Well, I was saying the DFM role is symbolic generally but it's in addition to whatever cabinet role she gets.

So it sounds to me like DFM is like Deputy PM - where you put someone who you have to pay lip service to, but want outside the inner circle of key decision makers. Throw in a junior ministerial post and job done.

Unless she gets her old job back (and there was plenty of speculation around the time of the deal that she would) then this will be seen as Forbes having been rather successfully played by Swinney.

[Nearly Sane]

So it sounds to me like DFM is like Deputy PM - where you put someone who you have to pay lip service to, but want outside the inner circle of key decision makers. Throw in a junior ministerial post and job done.

Unless she gets her old job back (and there was plenty of speculation around the time of the deal that she would) then this will be seen as Forbes having been rather successfully played by Swinney.

Sturgeon was DFM as a very clear anointing. So, no.

If I were Swinney, I'd want her in Finance. In terms of the party that means getting a lot of flak for decisions that others disagree with. If I were Forbes, as covered I'd go for the Islands, as it allows a more independent look.

[Nearly Sane]

And after all that she has the Economy, and Gaelic

[ProfessorDavey]

Sturgeon was DFM as a very clear anointing. So, no.

But Sturgeon was very clearly Salmond's heir apparent. Are you somehow suggesting that Swinney sees Forbes as his heir apparent

[Nearly Sane]

But Sturgeon was very clearly Salmond's heir apparent. Are you somehow suggesting that Swinney sees Forbes as his heir apparent

No, I was saying that your characterisation of DFM wasn't correct, as Sturgeon's role didn't fit within it.

[ProfessorDavey]

And after all that she has the Economy, and Gaelic

So a demotion, albeit a different one.

There was no bar to Swinney giving Forbes back her old job alongside being DFM - the current Scottish chancellor of the exchequer (so to speak) was also DFM until today.

Realistic given Forbes views there were rather fewer available cabinet post than might have been the case for others. No-one is going to let her near Health or Education.

In fact it would appear that Swinney has had to create a new job (is this another non-job to go with DFM - who knows) to fit her in, as he's increased the cabinet from 10 to 11

[ProfessorDavey]

No, I was saying that your characterisation of DFM wasn't correct, as Sturgeon's role didn't fit within it.

But it was you who described the role as generally symbolic:

' ... I was saying the DFM role is symbolic generally ...'

[Nearly Sane]

But it was you who described the role as generally symbolic:

' ... I was saying the DFM role is symbolic generally ...'

And? It doesn't mean that I agreed with your characterisation which was, as the case of Sturgeon shows, wrong. The symbolism when Sturgeon was chosen was obviously an anointing. The symbolism here is Forbes being welcomed back. Politics, like Paris is a moveable feast.

[Nearly Sane]

So a demotion, albeit a different one.

There was no bar to Swinney giving Forbes back her old job alongside being DFM - the current Scottish chancellor of the exchequer (so to speak) was also DFM until today.

Realistic given Forbes views there were rather fewer available cabinet post than might have been the case for others. No-one is going to let her near Health or Education.

In fact it would appear that Swinney has had to create a new job (is this another non-job to go with DFM - who knows) to fit her in, as he's increased the cabinet from 10 to 11

Again, you seem not to have any real understanding of why Forbes might not want to take on the most unpopular role in an SNP cabinet again.