Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.

[Maeght]

Dear Maeght,

It's a bloody long list but here goes.

1. I was born at the centre of the Universe.
2. I was blessed by being born a jock.
3. My Mother and Father were Christian, but they did not have much time for religion, to busy putting food on the table.
4. I was sent to Sunday school but hated it, would much rather prefer playing football with my mates.
5. I was also blessed with an enquiring mind, favourite word WHY.
6. Being brought up in the centre of the Universe I was told to hate ( not by my parents ) members of the RC religion, as I grow older I asked why.
7. From number 6 I started asking what does God say about this nonsense.
8. I suppose that is where my love affair with all religions comes from.
9. The bad times in my life is when I walked away.
10. The good times, when I returned to him✝️

How's that for starters, call it indoctrination if you want, I am absolutely fine with that.

Gonnagle

PS: Sorry, 11, it works, I would thoroughly recommend it✝️

Gonnagle.

Is that actually just for starters or is that it - I grew up in a Christian environment and it I feel better when I believe?

[Stranger]

My question in bold.

I already responded to that. "Every best quality that any man can hope to rise too" is a subjective and abstract idea. You asked "what are they" but, although there will undoubtably be some commonality, you're likely to get a different list from each person you ask. Off the top of my head, my list would probably emphasise empathy, compassion, generosity, and honesty. There'd probably much more to it if I considered it for longer, but what you will never get out of this is a being with a separate existence. God (in this sense) exists only in human minds, which would, as was pointed out, make you an atheist, or me a theist, depending on how we use language.

[Gordon]

Dear Gordon,

This Aristotle guy, sounds very interesting.

The act of contemplation ( theoria ) is what is most pleasant and best. If, then, God is always in that good state in which we sometimes are, this compels our wonder, and if in a better this compels it yet more.
And God is in a better state. And life also belongs to God is that actuality, and Gods self dependent actuality is life most good and eternal. We say therefore that God is living being, eternal, most good, so that life and duration continuous and eternal belongs to God, for this is God.

According to Karen Armstrong Aristotle thought theologia discourse about God, was the highest philosophy because it was concerned with the highest mode of being, what I take from reading about this Aristotle is, the mere act of thinking about God brings you closer to God, sounds about right to me.

This Golden Mean.

The "golden mean" is a philosophical concept, popularized by Aristotle, that suggests virtuous behavior lies in the balanced middle ground between two extremes: excess and deficiency. It's about finding the right balance in actions, emotions, and character traits to achieve moral excellence.


Sorry Gordon but the Ref has disallowed your goal, good call, for me the golden mean and the golden rule can walk happily hand in hand, so still 0-0 but it is only half time, lets see what the boys in the commentary box say

Gonnagle.

Aristotle live in pre-Christian times and in a polytheistic culture, so religiosity was the norm, and was thought to be more of deist (seen quote below). I think his approach to ethics and morality, in the sense of developing 'good character' has it's attractions in that increasing maturity and experience have a role in acting ethically in proportion to the prevailing circumstances.

Aristotle believed in a prime mover, an unmoved and eternal being responsible for the motion and order of the universe. However, he did not believe in a personal god who intervenes in human affairs or responds to prayer and sacrifice.

In fact, Aristotle argued that humans create gods in their own image, projecting their own desires and beliefs onto the divine. He also believed that religion could be used as a tool for political control, as seen in his critique of tyranny’s use of religion.

These views suggest a level of skepticism towards traditional religious beliefs and practices, but they do not necessarily indicate a complete rejection of the existence of a divine being. Instead, Aristotle’s beliefs may align more closely with deism, which posits a distant and non-interventionist creator.

It’s also worth noting that Aristotle’s ideas were shaped by the cultural and philosophical context of ancient Greece, where polytheistic beliefs were prevalent. Thus, his views on the divine may not neatly fit into modern categories of theism or atheism.

https://www.deepthinkers.net/was-aristotle-an-atheist-the-truth-about-his-beliefs/#:~:text=Aristotle%E2%80%99s%20belief%20in

[Aruntraveller]

PS: Sorry, 11, it works, I would thoroughly recommend it✝️

I can see that in individual cases religion may work for some people by bringing peace of mind, solace, etc. but how do you go from that to the generalised statement above?

If you want to generalise, then so do I.

How are the very many prayers that are being sent up in Gaza currently being answered?

How is religion helping there? How is it working?

[Gonnagle]

I already responded to that. "Every best quality that any man can hope to rise too" is a subjective and abstract idea. You asked "what are they" but, although there will undoubtably be some commonality, you're likely to get a different list from each person you ask. Off the top of my head, my list would probably emphasise empathy, compassion, generosity, and honesty. There'd probably much more to it if I considered it for longer, but what you will never get out of this is a being with a separate existence. God (in this sense) exists only in human minds, which would, as was pointed out, make you an atheist, or me a theist, depending on how we use language.

Dear Stranger,

Two parts of your post jump out at me, off the top of my head and probably

And to answer your question, my definition of God, Empathy, Compassion, generosity, honesty these to me are universal ideals/virtues, there is God, but they are not off the top of my head or probably✝️

Gonnagle.

[Maeght]

Dear Stranger,

Two parts of your post jump out at me, off the top of my head and probably

And to answer your question, my definition of God, Empathy, Compassion, generosity, honesty these to me are universal ideals/virtues, there is God, but they are not off the top of my head or probably✝️

Gonnagle.

So is God a thinking being or just a name you give to some human qualities?

[Gonnagle]

Aristotle live in pre-Christian times and in a polytheistic culture, so religiosity was the norm, and was thought to be more of deist (seen quote below). I think his approach to ethics and morality, in the sense of developing 'good character' has it's attractions in that increasing maturity and experience have a role in acting ethically in proportion to the prevailing circumstances.

https://www.deepthinkers.net/was-aristotle-an-atheist-the-truth-about-his-beliefs/#:~:text=Aristotle%E2%80%99s%20belief%20in

Dear Gordon,

I will have a look at your deepthunkers link later ( sounds a bit big headed to me, oh I am a deep thinker )

Anyway, in one of your quotes, Thus, his views on the divine may not neatly fit into modern categories of theism or atheism. and going back to the original point of this thread, nuances and complexities critical thinking, it is not a simple subject theism and atheism.

Gonnagle.

[Gonnagle]

So is God a thinking being or just a name you give to some human qualities?

Dear Maeght,

I kind of get the feeling where old Vlad is coming from, questions questions questions, but a clue is in your post, human qualities

Gonnagle.

[Maeght]

Dear Maeght,

I kind of get the feeling where old Vlad is coming from, questions questions questions, but a clue is in your post, human qualities

Gonnagle.

How is that an answer?

[Stranger]

And to answer your question, my definition of God, Empathy, Compassion, generosity, honesty these to me are universal ideals/virtues, there is God

And another ambiguous statement.   

It's like you're being deliberately evasive, frightened of committing to what you think God is, which means you keep contradicting yourself.

Before you said (#8) "God is every best quality that any man can hope to rise too [sic]" (my emphasis), which means that God is ideas in people's minds, not a separate being. But then you seemed to contradict that with (#27) "God is real as real as you and me but only realer, much more realer".

Now we have the "...there is God". What are we to make of that? There is the influence or manifestation of God (in line with  #27) or those things, in and of themselves, are literally God (in line with #8)?

[Stranger]

I kind of get the feeling where old Vlad is coming from, questions questions questions, but a clue is in your post, human qualities

More evasion...

[Gonnagle]

I can see that in individual cases religion may work for some people by bringing peace of mind, solace, etc. but how do you go from that to the generalised statement above?

If you want to generalise, then so do I.

How are the very many prayers that are being sent up in Gaza currently being answered?

How is religion helping there? How is it working?

Dear Arun,

Is this what the debate has sunk to, why does God not answer prayers, my answer would be, why does man not do what God wants, what does God want, go and read Strangers post.

In the words of a highly respected poster on here ( well I respect him ) For Fuck Sake

Gonnagle.

[Aruntraveller]

Your god created everything, is omniscient, omnipresent. It knows all that was, is and will be.

It created us, and yet allows us to destroy each other. Why? God knows all this suffering will happen, but still allows it to continue.

Oh yes, FOR FUCKS SAKE indeed. Your god is hateful, uncaring and destructive. You can't cherry pick the good bits and ignore the bad bits.

Sorry about that.

[Free Willy]

Your god created everything, is omniscient, omnipresent. It knows all that was, is and will be.

It created us, and yet allows us to destroy each other. Why? God knows all this suffering will happen, but still allows it to continue.

Oh yes, FOR FUCKS SAKE indeed. Your god is hateful, uncaring and destructive. You can't cherry pick the good bits and ignore the bad bits.

Sorry about that.

This isn't an atheist argument though is it?
This is a cruel god argument and as with all focus on the wrong doing of others leaves us open to view ourselves as the good guys.And a prelude to effectively exonerate the grossest of sins in God or the devil made me do it arguments

If we ar serious about this I think we need to think it through a bit more.

CS LEWIS I think said that now it was God in the Dock.

[Gonnagle]

How is that an answer?

Dear Maeght,

Its the only answer I am going to give, so why don't you as a good Atheist go and do some critical thinking, you may surprise yourself, or, OR, become a Gonnagleologist

Gonnagle.

[Stranger]

Its the only answer I am going to give...

In that case your use of the words 'God', 'theist', and 'atheist' will remain meaningless gibberish that everybody can simply disregard.

...so why don't you as a good Atheist go and do some critical thinking...

You could always try it yourself. You might clear up your confused doublethink regarding what 'God' is, you never know....

[Dicky Underpants]

". The bad times in my life is when I walked away.
10. The good times, when I returned to him✝️"
That makes you sound like a 'fair-weather' Christian, Gonners.
It was in my worst time that I realised there was nothing there.

[Maeght]

Dear Maeght,

Its the only answer I am going to give, so why don't you as a good Atheist go and do some critical thinking, you may surprise yourself, or, OR, become a Gonnagleologist

Gonnagle.

If that is your only answer I'd suggest you need to do some critical thinking. I've done it, maybe you should give it a try.

[Gonnagle]

". The bad times in my life is when I walked away.
10. The good times, when I returned to him✝️"
That makes you sound like a 'fair-weather' Christian, Gonners.
It was in my worst time that I realised there was nothing there.

Dear Dicky,

No sorry, it makes me sound very human✝️

Gonnagle.

[Aruntraveller]

This isn't an atheist argument though is it?
This is a cruel god argument and as with all focus on the wrong doing of others leaves us open to view ourselves as the good guys.And a prelude to effectively exonerate the grossest of sins in God or the devil made me do it arguments

If we ar serious about this I think we need to think it through a bit more.

CS LEWIS I think said that now it was God in the Dock.

I never claimed it was an atheist argument. It is my argument. Gonners is into all this light and joy without considering the flipside in his assessment of god/religion/whatever the heck he's wibbling on about.

Critical thinking must surely include the thought that "hold on, God created all this and then threw in a get out clause (freewill) so that really bad things continue to happen while claiming to be a God of love". I would have thought that would give even the most ardent believer pause to reconsider matters, but no.....all quite happy with this god that allows unspeakable horrors.

It is all unutterable bollocks. I repeat FFS.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Vlad,

You have done it again, upsetting the atheists, jolly bad form

Dear Arun,

Light and joy more a quiet contentment✝️ Well except when I log on to this forum then I am FFSING all over the place, this forum is probably bad for my Karma❤️

Anyway, critical thinking, lets bring a bit of critical thinking into the problem of as you put it "unspeakable horrors in this world".

How much is the war in Ukraine and Gaza costing, where do you think Our Lord Jesus would rather that money be spent? I do not have to use much critical thinking to work this one out. This definitely makes me FFizz.

But the above problem is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to mans inhumanity to man.

Gonnagle.

[Aruntraveller]

where do you think Our Lord Jesus would rather that money be spent?

Your god is omnipotent.

If they want to, they can direct the spending however they think best.

[Gonnagle]

Your god is omnipotent.

If they want to, they can direct the spending however they think best.

Dear Arun,

I much prefer omnibenevolent.

Gonnagle.

[Aruntraveller]

I much prefer omnibenevolent.

And I'd much prefer it if there were proof of such.

[Stranger]

You have done it again, upsetting the [meaningless undefined term], jolly bad form

There you go again. If you won't say what God is, referring to people who don't accept it, is devoid of meaning...