Author Topic: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.  (Read 2262 times)

Stranger

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #125 on: May 16, 2025, 10:15:00 AM »
You seem assume in what you wrote that God could have made a better world. That’s how I read it. Further, God might well have made universes with different outcomes but the same laws or even other universes with different laws. His will would be free to do so and if he has Freewill, by what process could he be denied giving freedoms to anything in his ambit?

Free will for God opens a whole new world of absurdity and contradictions. Many seem to think God is outside (space-)time, so the idea of it actually choosing at all becomes seriously questionable. But all you've done here is assert that God has free will is able to give it to others.

Not an argument.  ::)

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Stranger

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #126 on: May 16, 2025, 10:27:36 AM »
Anyway :) onwards and upwards or in this case just slightly left at the God Dodgers corner ( not nice Gonnagle, not nice at all ) this free will debate has me all of a tizzy, why is it so important, my [meanginless gibberish] ( theobllocks ) is built on words such as Faith, Trust, Belief and yes I will admit sometimes doubt, so lets talk free will, what's the big issue.

https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/determinism-classical-argument-against-free-will-failure/

Now here is a man telling me that the whole debate is still not decided, the question of free will is not such a open and shut case, me personally I think I have freewill ( think ) will I have a nice healthy breakfast, bollocks :P there is a lovely fry up with my name on it just waiting, so quite obviously I don't have freewill, no just me pandering to my more basic instincts.

So lets talk freewill, to end, if I am part of [meanginless gibberish] master plan then so be it, I have Faith, trust and belief, unsure about this freewill, enlighten me✝️

Your link mentioned, but did not address, the argument against free will that is being used by myself and others here. Just said:

"And in order to undermine the philosophical argument, we need to explain how a decision could be the product of someone’s free will — how the outcome of the decision could be under the given person’s control — even if the decision wasn’t caused by anything.

So, yes, this would all take a lot of work. Maybe I should write a book about it.
"

Under a person's control but not caused by anything? Good luck with that....
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #127 on: May 16, 2025, 12:36:52 PM »
You sound very bitter. Relax, there probably isn't a God. Enjoy life.

Still, I can confirm one thing, my confirmation bias has not been removed, as every time I read a post like this it confirms my opinion of you religionist types. :P
What should you do if you feel more relaxed and enjoy life more if you believe there probably is a God?
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #128 on: May 16, 2025, 12:41:49 PM »
I don't see why you find it difficult to grasp. Some of us are not convinced by the arguments and supposed facts that you religionists put forward.
I cannot believe in something I don't think exists. It is not complicated. Now you may claim that I need to undergo some sort of revelation or if I just try hard enough, study long enough, I will understand this thing called God. But, I just won't. It makes no sense to me.

As to religion that is practised by the likes of Christianity, Islam and to a lesser extent Hinduism, on a personal level I have found them at times to be hateful and judgemental. Other religions I know less about and so won't comment on them, but as many adherents to each religion claim that theirs is the only true way, then clearly some religionists are lying or misguided.

Don't even get me started on the hypocrisy......
Humans are judgemental - atheists included. I have found lots of judgement flying around on this board from atheists. So why pin it just on religions? Tad hypocritical.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #129 on: May 16, 2025, 01:08:00 PM »


How can one 'believe' in something without knowing what it is one believes in? Apophaticism would seem to suggest that 'belief in God' is an oxymoron. Most theology deals with concepts about God but if these are inadmissible then such belief would by definition constitute idolatry. "Every religion is idolatry" (Cornelius Castoriadis). Was Jung correct to suggest that one of the main functions of religion is to protect people from the experience of God? Whatever the unknowable God may be, perhaps the dreaded atheist is, albeit inadvertently, closer to it than the faithful, lost as they must be in idolatrous fancies.
I would say that beliefs - about gods or morals -  are emotional reactions to thoughts. Humans don't examine objective testable evidence before we form many of our beliefs. We tend to rely on a mix of our intuition and conscious thoughts, and often our beliefs are influenced by our goals e.g. if you are trying to form a cohesive group in order to achieve a particular goal, your intuitive beliefs may be different from people who prioritise diversity over achieving that shared goal.

So I think it is possible to have thoughts about God and have an emotional reaction and form intuitive beliefs motivated by your life goals. It is also possible to form intuitive beliefs about other abstract concepts, ethics and morals, which are motivated by your life goals. It seems that this is just the way humans have evolved and adapted in order to co-operate as part of a group or society.

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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #130 on: May 16, 2025, 01:16:36 PM »
I can see that in individual cases religion may work for some people by bringing peace of mind, solace, etc. but how do you go from that to the generalised statement above?

If you want to generalise, then so do I.

How are the very many prayers that are being sent up in Gaza currently being answered?

How is religion helping there? How is it working?
From what I have read, faith and religion are a comfort to people who are being bombed and killed in their tens of thousands. Here is a view from a Palestinian Christian https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/a-palestinian-christian-view-we-are-used-to-being-ignored/
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #131 on: May 16, 2025, 01:31:44 PM »
Morality is based on empathy and compassion.
Morality is subjective and I think morality is based on a lot more than empathy and compassion e.g. reciprocity, accountability, justice, order instead of chaos, which inevitability leads to judgment and punishment to maintain order and justice.

To some people, justice, judgment and punishment might look like the opposite of empathy and compassion.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #132 on: May 16, 2025, 01:54:52 PM »
From what I have read, faith and religion are a comfort to people who are being bombed and killed in their tens of thousands. Here is a view from a Palestinian Christian https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/a-palestinian-christian-view-we-are-used-to-being-ignored/
Religious faith can certainly give comfort to some in adversity, but the opposite can also be true. Specifically the notion of betrayal, abandonment or even anger where a person feels that their god has forsaken them which can heighten the negative effects of the adversity and trauma suffered.

And the relationship between traumatic events and religiosity is complex - not just whether individuals find comfort or anguish in their religious believe, but also whether traumatic events strengthen or weaken prior religious beliefs e.g.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3173616/

Note their conclusion that 'findings did not support the hypothesis that religious beliefs prevent long-term posttraumatic stress, and religiosity was not associated with higher levels of life satisfaction', contrary to assertion that having religious faith helps people get through traumatic events.


The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #133 on: May 16, 2025, 02:21:56 PM »
Religious faith can certainly give comfort to some in adversity, but the opposite can also be true. Specifically the notion of betrayal, abandonment or even anger where a person feels that their god has forsaken them which can heighten the negative effects of the adversity and trauma suffered.

And the relationship between traumatic events and religiosity is complex - not just whether individuals find comfort or anguish in their religious believe, but also whether traumatic events strengthen or weaken prior religious beliefs e.g.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3173616/

Note their conclusion that 'findings did not support the hypothesis that religious beliefs prevent long-term posttraumatic stress, and religiosity was not associated with higher levels of life satisfaction', contrary to assertion that having religious faith helps people get through traumatic events.
...this may apply to Norwegians who experienced the 2004 Tsunami. How are you extrapolating from a study of Norwegian Tsunami victims who are a product of Norwegian cultural factors and environment to making a generalisation about religious faith?

Religious faith is individual to the person so whether a person derives comfort or feels anger is dependent on each individual's faith and practice and their particular thoughts about religion and god, which is itself is a product of their nature/nurture.
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Gonnagle

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #134 on: May 16, 2025, 02:46:14 PM »
Dear Prof,

Tis true, tis very true, in my darkest moments I have felt all those feelings, betrayal, abandonment and most definitely anger, I have cursed God into the far reaches of hell, but in the healing, not a shadow of a doubt, he has been there and on reflection, my honest opinion a better man, although how that could possibly be  8)  how can you improve on perfection  :P

Gonnagle.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #135 on: May 16, 2025, 05:32:20 PM »
Religious faith is individual to the person so whether a person derives comfort or feels anger is dependent on each individual's faith and practice and their particular thoughts about religion and god, which is itself is a product of their nature/nurture.
Which is exactly the point I was making.

And the reason I posted my response was to counter your assertion, which appeared to claim a universality of response of those with religious faith:-

'From what I have read, faith and religion are a comfort to people who are being bombed and killed in their tens of thousands.'.

No nuance in that quote, no suggestion that while some may find religion and faith a comfort others may find that trauma leads to a crisis of faith which adds further pain to add to the pain they are already feeling because of the traumatic situation.

Now from your later posts it appears you agree with me that faith can be a comfort or can add to pain in times of trauma and which response occurs will be very much an individual matter. But your earlier post gave no indication of that nuance, merely an assertion that religion and faith are always a comfort.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #136 on: May 16, 2025, 05:37:54 PM »
Dear Prof,

Tis true, tis very true, in my darkest moments I have felt all those feelings, betrayal, abandonment and most definitely anger, I have cursed God into the far reaches of hell, but in the healing, not a shadow of a doubt, he has been there and on reflection, my honest opinion a better man, although how that could possibly be  8)  how can you improve on perfection  :P

Gonnagle.
So surely you can see that for some people a crisis of faith alongside a trauma may add to the pain rather than provide comfort.

And while I have no reason to challenge your ultimate response to that crisis of faith, surely you can also see that the following rather different responses are completely understandable to a situation where a person who believes in a loving, interventionalist god feels that god was no-where to be seen in their hour of greatest need.

1. To conclude that there is little point in praying to or worshiping a god who does not response and where there may be others who escapes the trauma (e.g. all family members survive a fire) who had no faith and do not pray.

or even:

2. To conclude that given that this supposedly loving, interventionalist god completely ignored them in their hour of need that the most obvious conclusion is that this god does not actually exist.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #137 on: May 16, 2025, 06:14:01 PM »
Quote
From what I have read, faith and religion are a comfort to people who are being bombed and killed in their tens of thousands.

I'm sure they are.

That is not what I asked about, though. I asked how the prayers were being answered.

Judging by the news today, more dead bodies.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #138 on: May 16, 2025, 06:16:58 PM »
Which is exactly the point I was making.

And the reason I posted my response was to counter your assertion, which appeared to claim a universality of response of those with religious faith:-

'From what I have read, faith and religion are a comfort to people who are being bombed and killed in their tens of thousands.'.

No nuance in that quote, no suggestion that while some may find religion and faith a comfort others may find that trauma leads to a crisis of faith which adds further pain to add to the pain they are already feeling because of the traumatic situation.

Now from your later posts it appears you agree with me that faith can be a comfort or can add to pain in times of trauma and which response occurs will be very much an individual matter. But your earlier post gave no indication of that nuance, merely an assertion that religion and faith are always a comfort.
Incorrect - I wrote that "From what I have read", to indicate that this is not universal and only based on what I have read about Palestinians in Gaza.

What I have read illustrates that ordinary civilians in Gaza can find conviction in faith - even when facing annihilation from  heavily armed Western-backed armies, whose ethics include justification of mass bombing, starvation and ethnic cleansing of civilians.   

So faith seems to be of some "use" to the Palestinians in Gaza against the bullets and bombs - people with faith seem prepared to accept horrors and accept death rather than accept being imprisoned and ethnically cleansed from their land by Israel and its supporters.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #139 on: May 16, 2025, 06:36:14 PM »
I'm sure they are.

That is not what I asked about, though. I asked how the prayers were being answered.

Judging by the news today, more dead bodies.
Dunno - depends what each person is hoping to get out of prayer.

My understanding of  prayer is that you don't have a sense of entitlement that you will get what you are praying for - the act of prayer is an act of remembrance that prompts you to be conscious of your beliefs e.g. in your purpose in life/ the superiority of God; prayer can help you contemplate, express gratitude, sustain you spiritually in difficult times, remind you of moral values and shift your focus from simply reacting to your circumstances. 
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #140 on: May 16, 2025, 06:39:35 PM »
Humans are judgemental - atheists included. I have found lots of judgement flying around on this board from atheists. So why pin it just on religions? Tad hypocritical.

Not hypocritical at all.

I was discussing my personal experience of religions, that didn't exclude anyone else from being guilty of that.  As religions are being portrayed by some on here as being a reflection of the best of human instincts it strikes a discordant note with me when religions act in a way that reflects some of the baser human instincts. That was the context of my remark.
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. - God is Love.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #141 on: May 16, 2025, 06:41:19 PM »
Dunno - depends what each person is hoping to get out of prayer.

My understanding of  prayer is that you don't have a sense of entitlement that you will get what you are praying for - the act of prayer is an act of remembrance that prompts you to be conscious of your beliefs e.g. in your purpose in life/ the superiority of God; prayer can help you contemplate, express gratitude, sustain you spiritually in difficult times, remind you of moral values and shift your focus from simply reacting to your circumstances.

So to be clear, prayers are not answered?
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. - God is Love.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #142 on: May 16, 2025, 07:40:31 PM »
So to be clear, prayers are not answered?
To be clear - are you asking me what I believe about prayers? I have already given you my beliefs - see previous post. Can you elaborate which part of my answer you are having trouble understanding?

Is it the "depends what each person is hoping to get out of prayer."

Because the rest of it seems pretty self-explanatory - if you are praying to remember God, remind yourself of your insignificance in comparison, feel spiritually sustained, gain some perspective, re-affirm your belief in your purpose in Life, remind yourself of your moral values, ask forgiveness, ask for your burden to be lessened or to receive comfort etc - then you'll have to ask the person praying if they got some inkling of that from their prayer and therefore feel that some of their prayer was answered.

E.g. not sure what the Christian perspective is but I don't get the impression Muslims ask for forgiveness in prayer and subsequently report receiving confirmation from God that they have been forgiven.

Nor do I get the impression that it is an Islamic tradition that if a Muslim prays for something they expect to straightaway receive what they pray for - I think the idea is to have faith that if they do not receive what they pray for, it is for a reason, and to believe they may receive a reward for their faith and patience. My impression of prayer is it is an expression of faith and hope.
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Free Willy

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #143 on: May 17, 2025, 08:07:29 AM »
But I thought God was supposed to know everything that is going to happen. No? If so then there is no 'could'.
OK "would" it is.
So you are suggesting that God designed a bridge that would fall down and I'm suggesting he built a bridge that a person or people would would knock down.

Maeght

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #144 on: May 17, 2025, 08:23:17 AM »
OK "would" it is.
So you are suggesting that God designed a bridge that would fall down and I'm suggesting he built a bridge that a person or people would would knock down.

Designed a world where a person or people would knock the bridge down, knowing that that would happen, and being able to design a world where it didn't happen.

Gonnagle

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #145 on: May 17, 2025, 08:24:42 AM »
Dear Thread,

One of the key points in critical thinking.

4. Intellectual empathy is the ability to understand and appreciate perspectives different from one's own, even if those perspectives challenge one's own beliefs or values. It involves stepping outside of one's own frame of reference to understand the reasoning and motivations behind another person's way of thinking. This skill is crucial for productive dialogue and can help identify hidden common ground.

Faith

The Hebrew word for "faith" is emunah (אמונה). It's derived from the root word aman (אמן), which means "to be secure," "to be a support," or "to be firm". In the context of faith, emunah signifies trust, reliance, and loyalty, often used in the sense of faith in God. It's about demonstrating trust and faithfulness in action, rather than just believing in something.
Elaboration:
Root Word:
The root aman (אמן) is also the source of the word "Amen," which is used to affirm or agree with something. This connection highlights the idea of faith as a firm and reliable commitment.
Meaning in the Bible:
Emunah appears in the Torah (the first five books of the Hebrew Bible) and is often translated as "faith" or "belief" in English translations. It's not just about believing something is true, but about having faith in God and demonstrating that faith through actions.
Active Trust:
Emunah emphasizes active trust and reliance on God, often in the context of promises and faithfulness. It's not just passive belief, but an active commitment to God's will and promises.
Relationship to God:
In Jewish tradition, emunah is closely tied to the concept of having a personal relationship with God, trusting in His promises and guidance.
Examples:
The example of Abraham in Genesis 15 is often cited to illustrate emunah, as he demonstrated trust in God's promises, even in difficult circumstances.

Trust


The English word "trust" has roots in the Ancient Greek word "πίστις" (pistis), which translates to "faith, belief, trust, confidence". In Greek mythology, "Pistis" was also a personification of good faith, trust, and reliability. This word is also central to theological discourse, particularly in Christianity, where it's often translated as "faith" but also carries the meaning of trust and confidence in God and Jesus Christ.

Belief


The word "belief" has a rich history, evolving from its earliest forms in ancient Germanic languages to its present-day usage. The noun "belief" emerged in Middle English, likely as a variant of "yleve," according to the Oxford English Dictionary. This "yleve" itself came from Old English "gelēafa," meaning "belief, faith," which in turn was related to the Proto-West Germanic "*ga-laubon," signifying "to hold dear, esteem, trust," says the Online Etymology Dictionary. The Proto-Indo-European root "*leubh-" connects this to concepts of caring, desiring, and loving, notes the Online Etymology Dictionary.
Here's a more detailed look at the word's evolution:
Old English "gelēafa":
This word, meaning "belief, faith," was the precursor to the Middle English form.
Middle English "bileave":
The noun "belief" likely arose as a variant of "bileave," which eventually became "belief".
*Proto-West Germanic "ga-laubon":
This term meant "to hold dear, esteem, trust," showcasing the early connection between belief and affection.
*Proto-Indo-European "leubh-":
This root, meaning "to care, desire, love," is a key component in the word's etymological roots, highlighting the emotional aspect of belief.
The shift in meaning:
While the root meanings point to love and esteem, the word "belief" also evolved to encompass a broader range of ideas, including faith, confidence, and acceptance of something as true.

This post is purely for educational purposes and of course is not exhaustive, and no, no need to thank me, just helping the debate along.

Gonnagle.
For the sake of my sanity I will now endeavour to aid Atheists in their thinking not do their thinking for them✝️✝️✝️

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #146 on: May 17, 2025, 08:43:24 AM »
Not hypocritical at all.

I was discussing my personal experience of religions, that didn't exclude anyone else from being guilty of that.  As religions are being portrayed by some on here as being a reflection of the best of human instincts it strikes a discordant note with me when religions act in a way that reflects some of the baser human instincts. That was the context of my remark.
Sorry - missed this. Not sure that it is “religion” that is being portrayed by Gonnagle  as a reflection of the best of human instincts. I thought he believed that about God. Religions are interpreted and practised by flawed humans so any experience you have of them will include the flaws of the human you encountered.


Presumably you think “moral judgment” about the behaviour of others is a “good” thing in social groups that want to maintain order and cooperation in the group?
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #147 on: May 17, 2025, 08:46:17 AM »
Quote
Presumably you think “moral judgment” about the behaviour of others is a “good” thing in social groups that want to maintain order and cooperation in the group?

I think that depends entirely on what you are judging, what conclusions you reach, and what criteria you use to reach those conclusions.
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. - God is Love.

Gonnagle

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #148 on: May 17, 2025, 09:03:09 AM »
Sorry - missed this. Not sure that it is “religion” that is being portrayed by Gonnagle  as a reflection of the best of human instincts. I thought he believed that about God. Religions are interpreted and practised by flawed humans so any experience you have of them will include the flaws of the human you encountered.


Presumably you think “moral judgment” about the behaviour of others is a “good” thing in social groups that want to maintain order and cooperation in the group?

Dear Gabriella,

Absolutely correct, and I have pointed this out on many occasions on this forum, I am Human sorry! sorry! a flawed Human and this is where my Christianity, my religion kicks in, but certain posters on this forum seem to miss this very important point.

Gonnagle.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Critical thinking, Why? Because apparently I am rubbish at it.
« Reply #149 on: May 17, 2025, 09:04:19 AM »
Designed a world where a person or people would knock the bridge down, knowing that that would happen, and being able to design a world where it didn't happen.
If I have understood correctly what you mean by “knock the bridge down”, then from observation of the world around me, that seems to be how intelligent organisms learn - through exploration, taking risks, failure, adaptation.

Why would it need to be a different process for higher intelligence organisms such as humans? In relation to morals about reciprocity, compassion, empathy, social cooperation and order - knocking the bridge down is how humans learn  - by experiencing directly or indirectly failure, pain, suffering.
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