Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Hope on June 18, 2015, 08:45:36 AM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-33179019
What do people think about this? KKK, other white supremacist, white Islamist, ...?
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HORRIFIC! >:(
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-33179019
What do people think about this? KKK, other white supremacist, white Islamist, ...?
That it is deeply tragic and speculating without many facts isn't very useful.
Thoughts are with the community and families.
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Agree, NS.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-33179019
What do people think about this? KKK, other white supremacist, white Islamist, ...?
What difference does what people think make?
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Whoever carried out this terrible crime is evil, whatever their ethnic identity.
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Well I think it is a lone individual who wants race wars. He's fanning the flames. Could be a skin head type or Manson or just a lone hater. No this is definitely NOT a Muslim thingy here.
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A 21 year-old man identified as Dylann Storm has been named as the chief suspect.
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They have him in custody.
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What difference does what people think make?
Some might have congratulated the gunman - after all, it has potentially helped reduce the number of Christians ;) What people think can have a considerable effect on their view of the event.
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They have him in custody.
That must have been within the last 45 minutes; according to the 4pm news, they were still looking for him.
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BBC News says he was arrested about half an hour ago.
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What difference does what people think make?
Some might have congratulated the gunman - after all, it has potentially helped reduce the number of Christians ;) What people think can have a considerable effect on their view of the event.
Your OP was phrased to ask what people thought about who had done it not what people thought about the reduction in the number of Christians or the like, so my question was what difference would it make what people thought about who had done it since nobody could know. Or were you just trying to trap people into making assumptions?
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What difference does what people think make?
Some might have congratulated the gunman - after all, it has potentially helped reduce the number of Christians ;) What people think can have a considerable effect on their view of the event.
How sick would that be? >:(
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Your OP was phrased to ask what people thought about who (might) had done it ...
In view of the strong views on certain people groups on this board, I wanted to see what, if any, groups would crop up as being thought of as likely as having done this. As I said before, our opinions can have a considerable effect on our attitudes to people or people groups.
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As I said before, our opinions can have a considerable effect on our attitudes to people or people groups.
That's going to come back and haunt you.
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In view of the strong views on certain people groups on this board, I wanted to see what, if any, groups would crop up as being thought of as likely as having done this.
You think some people on this board would condone this crime?
As I said before, our opinions can have a considerable effect on our attitudes to people or people groups.
You think it is the fault of some of the people on this board or people like them?
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I thought Obama gave an eloquent speech; referring again to the Gun Laws, and with no hope of anything being done about them in the States.
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Your OP was phrased to ask what people thought about who (might) had done it ...
In view of the strong views on certain people groups on this board, I wanted to see what, if any, groups would crop up as being thought of as likely as having done this. As I said before, our opinions can have a considerable effect on our attitudes to people or people groups.
I just assumed from what I read that it was a mentally ill young man :-\
But maybe I read a later report.
Apparently he sat in the church for an hour before opening fire, he sounds disturbed to me.
:(
There is nothing to suggest this evil piece of the proverbial is mentally ill, although of course all white supremacists have very sick personalities.
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As I said before, our opinions can have a considerable effect on our attitudes to people or people groups.
That's going to come back and haunt you.
Sadly, it comes back and haunts all of us, Trent. You're not exempt.
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Jon Stewart on Charleston murders (warning no jokes)
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/06/watch-jon-stewart-charleston-church-shooting
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What difference does what people think make?
Some might have congratulated the gunman - after all, it has potentially helped reduce the number of Christians ;) What people think can have a considerable effect on their view of the event.
Its disgrace that people use tragedies like this to score a cheap political point. To suggest anyone would have congratulated the gunman is a fucking outrage, mindful I'm close to being a super hypocrite I'll leave it there.
Sympathies to all involved.
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Jon Stewart on Charleston murders (warning no jokes)
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/06/watch-jon-stewart-charleston-church-shooting
+1 for Jon Stewart.
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There is nothing to suggest this evil piece of the proverbial is mentally ill, although of course all white supremacists have very sick personalities.
Makes me laugh (metaphorically) when people say after a mass murder that he must be mentally ill! You think? ::)
If you open fire in church with the purpose of killing black people I think it's a given your disturbed but doesn't excuse you being held accountable for your actions.
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What difference does what people think make?
Some might have congratulated the gunman - after all, it has potentially helped reduce the number of Christians ;) What people think can have a considerable effect on their view of the event.
Having the thoughts like the ones you have expressed in this post of yours Hope, wont have gained you any of your heavenly brownie points, in fact If there is a Mr Magic out there I would think he, she or it will have taken a considerable number of brownie points away from you.
Shows up an extremely unpleasant side of you Hope, disappointing.
ippy
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What difference does what people think make?
Some might have congratulated the gunman - after all, it has potentially helped reduce the number of Christians ;) What people think can have a considerable effect on their view of the event.
Having the thoughts like the ones you have expressed in this post of yours Hope, wont have gained you any of your heavenly brownie points, in fact If there is a Mr Magic out there I would think he, she or it will have taken a considerable number of brownie points away from you.
Shows up an extremely unpleasant side of you Hope, disappointing.
ippy
"Brownie points; Mr. Magic:" just go back to your colouring book and crayons!
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Having the thoughts like the ones you have expressed in this post of yours Hope, wont have gained you any of your heavenly brownie points, ...
Stop showing your ignorance of the Chritian faith, ippy. I don't need to look for heavenly brownie points - that's the preserve of other faiths, like Islam and Hinduism - and I can think of people who I have met on online forums like this who would have been glad to have heard about Christians being killed in this way. I'm glad that, as far as I'm aware, there aren't that many here who would harbour such thoughts.
in fact If there is a Mr Magic out there I would think he, she or it will have taken a considerable number of brownie points away from you.
Well, you're the one who talks about "Mr Magic's" and other such supernatural things. Clearly, you have a thing for them.
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But still pretty revolting posting Mr Hope not withstanding the ;)
Still I guess you are judging others by your standards. ;)
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Having the thoughts like the ones you have expressed in this post of yours Hope, wont have gained you any of your heavenly brownie points, ...
Stop showing your ignorance of the Chritian faith, ippy. I don't need to look for heavenly brownie points - that's the preserve of other faiths, like Islam and Hinduism - and I can think of people who I have met on online forums like this who would have been glad to have heard about Christians being killed in this way. I'm glad that, as far as I'm aware, there aren't that many here who would harbour such thoughts.
in fact If there is a Mr Magic out there I would think he, she or it will have taken a considerable number of brownie points away from you.
Well, you're the one who talks about "Mr Magic's" and other such supernatural things. Clearly, you have a thing for them.
As there are so many takes on the Christian faith, it is what you want to believe it to be. There is no one philosophy where it is concerned. Many of the Christians on this forum don't sing from the same hymn sheet!
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Having the thoughts like the ones you have expressed in this post of yours Hope, wont have gained you any of your heavenly brownie points, ...
Stop showing your ignorance of the Chritian faith, ippy. I don't need to look for heavenly brownie points - that's the preserve of other faiths, like Islam and Hinduism - and I can think of people who I have met on online forums like this who would have been glad to have heard about Christians being killed in this way. I'm glad that, as far as I'm aware, there aren't that many here who would harbour such thoughts.
in fact If there is a Mr Magic out there I would think he, she or it will have taken a considerable number of brownie points away from you.
Well, you're the one who talks about "Mr Magic's" and other such supernatural things. Clearly, you have a thing for them.
As there are so many takes on the Christian faith, it is what you want to believe it to be. There is no one philosophy where it is concerned. Many of the Christians on this forum don't sing from the same hymn sheet!
Taking a sociological, coupled with a psycho chemical viewpoint the only solution to people who do these things is to cut off their goolies.
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I'm glad that, as far as I'm aware, there aren't that many here who would harbour such thoughts.
Who are they? Who on this board is glad that Christians have been killed in this way?
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I'm glad that, as far as I'm aware, there aren't that many here who would harbour such thoughts.
These really are weasel words.
Can you quantify "aren't that many" for us? Can you even name one. You cowardly poster.
I do hope that posters are taking note of what is stated here.
Vile, vile contempt for members of this board.
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I am often first to kick religionists but the testimony of the family members in the link is powerfully strong stuff. They humble me
http://tinyurl.com/oqc5qdk
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I'm glad that, as far as I'm aware, there aren't that many here who would harbour such thoughts.
Who are they? Who on this board is glad that Christians have been killed in this way?
I don't think there are any,
Hope does. I want to know who he thinks would be glad of these shootings.
but on Internet message boards you can find some pretty awful thoughts.
Agreed. I think Hope's thoughts here are pretty awful.
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Not to mention the misplaced ;) .
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Sadness and joy at the first church service since the shootings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A89FYnCllA
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Hope mentioned Heavenly Brownie Points as per Islam & Hinduism etc. EXCUSE ME ?!!?!?
What the F IS religion if it ISN'T to safeguard one from Hell ???
That's ALWAYS been the mainstay of most if not ALL religions, otherwise what use is it after we die ????
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Hope mentioned Heavenly Brownie Points as per Islam & Hinduism etc. EXCUSE ME ?!!?!?
What the F IS religion if it ISN'T to safeguard one from Hell ???
That's ALWAYS been the mainstay of most if not ALL religions, otherwise what use is it after we die ????
I thought it was God/gods/the ultimate/the one etc, etc although all of those suggest an alternative.
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Hope mentioned Heavenly Brownie Points as per Islam & Hinduism etc. EXCUSE ME ?!!?!?
What the F IS religion if it ISN'T to safeguard one from Hell ???
That's ALWAYS been the mainstay of most if not ALL religions, otherwise what use is it after we die ????
Nick, it was ippy who introduced the concept of Heavenly Brownie Points, not me. I simply pointed out that this system, which exists within Hinduism (karma & dharma) and the giving of alms to earn one's salvation - Islam and Hinduism, doesn't exist within Christianity (though I won't exclude some forms of Churchianity - such as historical Catholic indulgences).
Christianity is about relationship, not 'evading' something.
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Why is it some praise the deity when something good happens, but never blame it when a terrible tragedy occurs?
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Hope mentioned Heavenly Brownie Points as per Islam & Hinduism etc. EXCUSE ME ?!!?!?
What the F IS religion if it ISN'T to safeguard one from Hell ???
That's ALWAYS been the mainstay of most if not ALL religions, otherwise what use is it after we die ????
Nick, it was ippy who introduced the concept of Heavenly Brownie Points, not me. I simply pointed out that this system, which exists within Hinduism (karma & dharma) and the giving of alms to earn one's salvation - Islam and Hinduism, doesn't exist within Christianity (though I won't exclude some forms of Churchianity - such as historical Catholic indulgences).
Christianity is about relationship, not 'evading' something.
Have you seen any pompous twats lately Hope?
I assume you haven't got a beard.
ippy
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Why is it some praise the deity when something good happens, but never blame it when a terrible tragedy occurs?
The congregation praised the Lord abundantly, in their grief. You do them an injustice!!
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Have you seen any pompous twats lately Hope?
I'm responding to one.
I assume you haven't got a beard.
Have had one for 30+ years.
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Why is it some praise the deity when something good happens, but never blame it when a terrible tragedy occurs?
Did your children praise you when things went well in the family, but blame you whenever things went wrong?
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One of the interesting reactions in the US to this shooting, is that it's terrorism by a white supremacist. Actually, it's early days to be making such pronouncements, but I can see where this might be heading - that US law enforcement agencies spend a huge amount of money and energy on the threat of jihadist/Muslim terrorism, how are they looking at white terrorism of this kind?
Big problem is that such debates are already politically polarized, and this one will probably not be different. It's going to be difficult to really analyze the many deaths of black people of this kind, some of them at the hands of police.
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Mr. Wigginhall,
The fact is the FBI takes white and black hate groups very seriously. As far as the white ones, it is a fact the government has been hunting them down and prosecuting them for almost a hundred years. I really think you are off base to suggest the US government is not spending as much on home grown terror. Before suggesting such a thing why not pop onto the FBI web site and see what they have been up to on the fight against white hate groups. I assure that every white hate group in Idaho is under surveillance. I hope your government is spending what needs to be spent on monitoring your white hate groups in your country.
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Mr. Wigginhall,
The fact is the FBI takes white and black hate groups very seriously. As far as the white ones, it is a fact the government has been hunting them down and prosecuting them for almost a hundred years. I really think you are off base to suggest the US government is not spending as much on home grown terror. Before suggesting such a thing why not pop onto the FBI web site and see what they have been up to on the fight against white hate groups. I assure that every white hate group in Idaho is under surveillance. I hope your government is spending what needs to be spent on monitoring your white hate groups in your country.
Fair enough. But Fox News has so far not used the term 'domestic terrorism' about this incident, although Loretta Lynch has. If he was brown/Muslim, they probably would?
I wonder if 'white terrorist' is an oxymoron for some people?
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Not ever been sure if it makes much difference whether we say 'terrorism', or 'hate crime' or lone nutjob as long as the reaction is proportionate. We need to stop seeing things as simply a reason to say no guns/more guns. It needs to be a properly though out response that deals with the break down in respect for policirg caused by the numbers of deaths in arresting and custody. It has overlaps with racial extension but is not purely about that.
Solutions are not easy but the members of that church deserve our respect and in their gracious offering of forgiveness, awe and humility.
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Well, I don't think it is purely about one thing. But it's noticeable that media such as Fox News are reluctant to call this domestic terrorism, whereas if a Muslim had killed 9 white people, the t word would be in neon. It matters if incidents like this emerge from a deep-rooted white racism, and I think some black people are linking it with the killings of black men by police recently. That doesn't mean that it has a single cause.
I think the gun lobby are happy to argue all day about gun shows and the availability of guns, but they are pretty nervous about the linkage, 'guns available to white supremacist terrorists'. It puts a different angle on it.
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Mr. Wigginhall,
I don't watch Fox but I did a little digging and noticed Geraldo Rivera, one of the Fox journalists/reporters has been calling it domestic terrorism. But what that has to do with how much money Obama is spending to fight white terror in the USA is beyond me.
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Why is it some praise the deity when something good happens, but never blame it when a terrible tragedy occurs?
Did your children praise you when things went well in the family, but blame you whenever things went wrong?
Parents, despite all the best hopes of their offspring sometimes, are not regarded as omniscient, ommipotent and omnibenevolent.
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Mr. Wigginhall,
I don't watch Fox but I did a little digging and noticed Geraldo Rivera, one of the Fox journalists/reporters has been calling it domestic terrorism. But what that has to do with how much money Obama is spending to fight white terror in the USA is beyond me.
Well, I'm just saying that the idea of Muslim terror is digestible for many Americans, because it puts it out there, as the exotic Other. Whereas homegrown white terror is more disquieting, esp. if the underlying racism (of some of it) has deep roots. Who the hell would have the beanbags to uncover and confront all of that? I know that some white extremism is also about anti-gumment stuff.
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Mr. Wigginhall,
So you are saying America was better able to digest 9/11 than the Oklahoma City bombing? Well in the sense that you can accept that a Muslim terrorist wants to kill Brits but you would ask why, when a Brit terrorist kills Brits.
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Mr. Wigginhall,
So you are saying America was better able to digest 9/11 than the Oklahoma City bombing? Well in the sense that you can accept that a Muslim terrorist wants to kill Brits but you would ask why, when a Brit terrorist kills Brits.
No, you're twisting my words. I think 9/11 was a great shock to the US, but since then, the image of the Muslim terrorist has become a stock one, so that 'terrorism' almost seems to link automatically with 'Muslim'. So I think for some Americans, calling the Charleston shootings an act of white supremacist terrorism is difficult, hence the reluctance of Fox to describe it like that. Not everyone of course - Loretta Lynch described it like that.
I think many black people also connect it with the killings of black men in recent years by cops, hence 'Black Lives Matter'. Of course, there's a lot of history involved here.
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Why is it some praise the deity when something good happens, but never blame it when a terrible tragedy occurs?
Did your children praise you when things went well in the family, but blame you whenever things went wrong?
Parents, despite all the best hopes of their offspring sometimes, are not regarded as omniscient, ommipotent and omnibenevolent.
As the sainted Oscar said: "Children begin by loving their parents; as they grow older they judge them; sometimes they forgive them."
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Mr. Wigginhall,
Since you mentioned Fox as your proof that Americans have a problem stating white supremacist terrorism, I clicked on to Fox and clicked their terrorism section and low and behold the lead story in their terrorism section is the Charlestons shooting with a big picture of the shooter. I don't think they have a problem stating what he is. Well I knew as soon as I heard of the event that it was a loner wanting to start a race war, to fan the flames. And i believe most Americans knew it was that and not a Muslim terror attack. You see Mr. Wigginhall, Americans have had a century of dealing with white hate groups and their attacks on America. I didn't hear one suggestion that it might have been a Muslim terrorist, not one.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/white-supremacist-group-considered-itself-most-racist-1946090.html
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Saw Obama's speech, come eulogy, come preaching, today. Very impressive; and he burst into song at the end: Amazing Grace - never sung flatter in its history!
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Parents, despite all the best hopes of their offspring sometimes, are not regarded as omniscient, ommipotent and omnibenevolent.
Oh, it seems we have someone trying to speak on behalf of someone else here. How unusual. Or is this evidence that Floo and Shaker are one and the same person? ;)
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Parents, despite all the best hopes of their offspring sometimes, are not regarded as omniscient, ommipotent and omnibenevolent.
Oh, it seems we have someone trying to speak on behalf of someone else here. How unusual. Or is this evidence that Floo and Shaker are one and the same person? ;)
However did you guess! ;D
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Parents, despite all the best hopes of their offspring sometimes, are not regarded as omniscient, ommipotent and omnibenevolent.
Oh, it seems we have someone trying to speak on behalf of someone else here. How unusual. Or is this evidence that Floo and Shaker are one and the same person? ;)
However did you guess! ;D
Could it be the family-like spats that the two of you share at times. ;D
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Parents, despite all the best hopes of their offspring sometimes, are not regarded as omniscient, ommipotent and omnibenevolent.
Oh, it seems we have someone trying to speak on behalf of someone else here. How unusual. Or is this evidence that Floo and Shaker are one and the same person? ;)
However did you guess! ;D
Could it be the family-like spats that the two of you share at times. ;D
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh?
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I believe six black churches have been burnt down in south eastern US since the Charleston killings. This means that the guy who killed the nine people has many sympathizers....and cannot be dismissed as a crank.
http://us.cnn.com/2015/06/30/us/south-carolina-church-fire-mount-zion-ame/index.html
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With grief and shock from the racist killings in a Charleston church still fresh, a predominantly black house of worship in another South Carolina town burned down late Tuesday.
It's unclear what caused the blaze, said Williamsburg County Fire Chief Randy Swinton.
Since the June 17 murders at Charleston's Emmanuel AME church of nine worshippers by a white 21-year-old saying he wanted to start a race war, at least six black churches have burned in the southeastern United States. That includes Tuesday night's burning of Mt. Zion.
Regardless of the cause of Tuesday's blaze, "it was another punch to the gut" to the community, said former state Rep. Bakari Sellers on CNN Wednesday.
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I agree it is very worrying but why link to a case where it is not clear if it was arson?
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Good Grief! Some here are as irresponsible as some news outlets. Yes several black churches have burnt as well as several churches with mostly white congregations. Those don't get mentioned because that ruins the racist slant the irresponsible news outlets are peddling. So about the several black churches. Some have been hit by lighting not the kkk. Some have been robbed and set on fire. And those responsible have turned out to be African American. And yes I believe two or so have been confirmed hate crimes. So what is real is that those irresponsible people and news outlets, by suggesting a wave of attacks on African American churches, are in fact igniting more racial division and fear.
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Oh, and to keep it real. A fact, the number of church burnings in the USA has actually dropped. There is no wave.
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Perhaps Sriram could address the issue of his Hindu militants burning Christian churches and beating Christians in his beautiful India. What are the stats on your the burnings in your country Sriram?
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Perhaps Sriram could address the issue of his Hindu militants burning Christian churches and beating Christians in his beautiful India. What are the stats on your the burnings in your country Sriram?
You really do go berserk every now and then..Johnny!
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Sriram,
No, I never loose my cool. But what is dangerous is news outlets and people that are suggesting there is a wave of arson attacks on black churches by racists. Is it racist when lightning strikes, when a church is robbed and burnt by an African American? Is it racist that so many white churches are burnt and never get mentioned nor counted in the stats? Is it weird that you like to point finger at other nations while ignoring those same crimes going on in your beautiful India? Berserk? You don't even know the definition of that word.
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Mr. Wigginhall,
So you are saying America was better able to digest 9/11 than the Oklahoma City bombing? Well in the sense that you can accept that a Muslim terrorist wants to kill Brits but you would ask why, when a Brit terrorist kills Brits.
No, you're twisting my words. I think 9/11 was a great shock to the US, but since then, the image of the Muslim terrorist has become a stock one, so that 'terrorism' almost seems to link automatically with 'Muslim'. So I think for some Americans, calling the Charleston shootings an act of white supremacist terrorism is difficult, hence the reluctance of Fox to describe it like that. Not everyone of course - Loretta Lynch described it like that.
I think many black people also connect it with the killings of black men in recent years by cops, hence 'Black Lives Matter'. Of course, there's a lot of history involved here.
I think 9/11 was a great shock to the US . . .
It was, to a lot of people of my generation, a much-needed shock.
I lost friends, civilian and military to I R A terrorism which received huge amounts of funding from Irish-Americans.
On the TV news there were films of coach-loads of American tourists visiting sites where I R A bombs killed a Northern Irish boy band, and placeds where soldiers had been bombed or shot.
9/11 bought hoime to the population of thge U S exactly what it was like to have to look over your shoulder when you went out, not knowing when the next atrocity was to be visited opon them. It changed their entire attitude to ALL terrorism and thus had a positive effect.
It is an unpleasant shame that the lesson could not have been learned without such a huge loss of innocent lives.
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Ya right. Just to keep it real. The Oklahoma city bombing was a great shock and yet my American neighbors have been dealing with white domestic terrorism for a hundred years. Americans do not have to, nor will they ever, be terrorized into having to look over their shoulders ever time they go out. You can be alert without the paranoia. 9/11 did NOT change Americans attitude to terrorism just their game plan. They have always been ready to squish it out where ever they find it. Just check the FBI web site. 9/11 was an attack on a massive scale and has led America to take the fight overseas on a great scale. Domestic terror on the other hand is and always has been a priority of the FBI.
https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2012/may/extremism_052212/extremism_052212
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKye0eaVwq8
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You can keep wearing your blinkers Johnny...but here is some news. Watch the video.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33371255
And its not about pointing fingers...but about something serious to discuss.