Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Christian Topic => Topic started by: floo on September 22, 2015, 05:47:32 PM
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Which Christians of this forum believe in that complete nonsense?
It depends on what you mean by 'the rapture', Floo. There are several Christian takes on the topic. One was explored in the 'Left Behind' film that Channel 5 showed over the weekend.
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Which Christians of this forum believe in that complete nonsense?
It depends on what you mean by 'the rapture', Floo. There are several Christian takes on the topic. One was explored in the 'Left Behind' film that Channel 5 showed over the weekend.
I read a 'Left Behind' book once it was complete garbage. I would prefer to be left behind than engage in the second coming stupidity!
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Which Christians of this forum believe in that complete nonsense?
It depends on what you mean by 'the rapture', Floo. There are several Christian takes on the topic. One was explored in the 'Left Behind' film that Channel 5 showed over the weekend.
I read a 'Left Behind' book once it was complete garbage. I would prefer to be left behind than engage in the second coming stupidity!
So, as Hope asked, please define what you meant by "The Rapture".
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So, as Hope asked, please define what you meant by "The Rapture".
It's like a rupture but not so painful.
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I read a 'Left Behind' book once it was complete garbage. I would prefer to be left behind than engage in the second coming stupidity!
I read the full set. I enjoyed them as fiction, in the same way as I enjoy other sets of fiction.
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I read a 'Left Behind' book once it was complete garbage. I would prefer to be left behind than engage in the second coming stupidity!
I read the full set. I enjoyed them as fiction, in the same way as I enjoy other sets of fiction.
I do that with the Bible, a work of fiction. :)
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I read a 'Left Behind' book once it was complete garbage. I would prefer to be left behind than engage in the second coming stupidity!
I read the full set. I enjoyed them as fiction, in the same way as I enjoy other sets of fiction.
I do that with the Bible, a work of fiction. :)
Which much of it is, imo.
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I've heard people talk of being 'rapture ready', which reminds me a bit of the crap about being 'beach body ready'. Does being 'rapture ready' involve pubic waxing too?
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I've heard people talk of being 'rapture ready', which reminds me a bit of the crap about being 'beach body ready'. Does being 'rapture ready' involve pubic waxing too?
Never heard of being, 'beach body ready'! ;D
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I've heard people talk of being 'rapture ready', which reminds me a bit of the crap about being 'beach body ready'. Does being 'rapture ready' involve pubic waxing too?
Never heard of being, 'beach body ready'! ;D
I take it to mean suitable for uncovering on the beach. On the other hand I can think of a lot of people whose bodies are best kept covered if they go to the beach, myself included. :(
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I've heard people talk of being 'rapture ready', which reminds me a bit of the crap about being 'beach body ready'. Does being 'rapture ready' involve pubic waxing too?
Never heard of being, 'beach body ready'! ;D
I take it to mean suitable for uncovering on the beach. On the other hand I can think of a lot of people whose bodies are best kept covered if they go to the beach, myself included. :(
Same here! ;D
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Which Christians of this forum believe in that complete nonsense?
It depends on what you mean by 'the rapture', Floo. There are several Christian takes on the topic. One was explored in the 'Left Behind' film that Channel 5 showed over the weekend.
I read a 'Left Behind' book once it was complete garbage. I would prefer to be left behind than engage in the second coming stupidity!
So, as Hope asked, please define what you meant by "The Rapture".
Floo, would you please tell us what you mean.
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I've heard people talk of being 'rapture ready', which reminds me a bit of the crap about being 'beach body ready'. Does being 'rapture ready' involve pubic waxing too?
Never heard of being, 'beach body ready'! ;D
I take it to mean suitable for uncovering on the beach. On the other hand I can think of a lot of people whose bodies are best kept covered if they go to the beach, myself included. :(
Same here! ;D
It is supposed to mean toned/fake tanned/waxed, for both genders. I however have noticed that when I want to go to the beach my body appears ready to go with me. Everyone on the beach this summer had their bodies with them so I assumed we were all beach body ready.
As for covering/uncovering, I go for the latter as my skin is very sensitive, but the only bodies on a beach that I find off putting are those that are going lobster-red. Ouch!
Anyway, back on topic...
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I'll assume it's got something to do with religion in one way or another; I doubt this rapture whatever it's supposed to be is any more sensible or daft than all of the religions are allready, I'll go for another daft religion based idea? You tell me?
ippy
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Rapture is a daft name for the equally daft 'second coming' concept!
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Rapture is a daft name for the equally daft 'second coming' concept!
That's not what many Christians mean by "Rapture". Specifically, that is not what is meant in the Left Behind series that you mentioned.
So, so far we have an opening post by someone who does not know what she means, so what hope is there of a sensible discussion here?
FYI, I don't think the Left Behind stuff is particularly biblical.
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Floo and Alien are both right.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture
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Floo and Alien are both right.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture
Agreed. The problem is that the term "Rapture" has largely been hijacked by some of my brothers and sisters in Christ. Much reference to the "Rapture" these days is in the sense of something separate to Jesus' actual return. That is how the Left Behind crew use it. Hence my request to floo for clarification. She seems to use it the old (correct, IMO) manner, but then refers to the Left Behind series.
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She seems to use it the old (correct, IMO) manner, but then refers to the Left Behind series.
To be fair to Floo, it was I who first mentioned the Left Behind film. However, I would still like to see Floo explain exactly what Floo understands by the term.
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Does it really matter, as I don't believe in any of that crazy nonsense anyway?
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Does it really matter, as I don't believe in any of that crazy nonsense anyway?
Yes it does, Floo, as you have asked "Which Christians of this forum believe in that complete nonsense?" Before I or any other Christian here can honestly answer you, we need to know what you mean by 'that crazy nonsense'. Are you referring to the line taken by the authors of the Left Behind series, the posttrib/postmillennialist line taken by others, or what?
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Does it really matter, as I don't believe in any of that crazy nonsense anyway?
Why bring it up then? This is meant to be a place to discuss stuff not a place to have a rant.
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I only asked which Christians believed in the rapture, that I believe to mean the so called 'second coming'. I have already stated I believe that scenario to be a load of silly nonsense. If some don't like my thoughts on the topic, no one is forcing them to post on this thread! ::)
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I've heard people talk of being 'rapture ready', which reminds me a bit of the crap about being 'beach body ready'. Does being 'rapture ready' involve pubic waxing too?
I think it might be useful for those expecting Jesus to appear in the clouds to carry some embrocation for stiff necks (if the traditional sense of 'the Rapture' is meant)
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I only asked which Christians believed in the rapture, that I believe to mean the so called 'second coming'. I have already stated I believe that scenario to be a load of silly nonsense. If some don't like my thoughts on the topic, no one is forcing them to post on this thread! ::)
OK, so you are asking which Christians here believe that Jesus will return. Glad we got there in the end.
Count me in on that then.
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And when and how do you think the guy will put in an appearance?
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And when and how do you think the guy will put in an appearance?
When he is ready.
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I've heard people talk of being 'rapture ready', which reminds me a bit of the crap about being 'beach body ready'. Does being 'rapture ready' involve pubic waxing too?
I think it might be useful for those expecting Jesus to appear in the clouds to carry some embrocation for stiff necks (if the traditional sense of 'the Rapture' is meant)
Wearing clean underwear would be a bonus, too. Especially if wearing a skirt.
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Wearing clean underwear would be a bonus, too. Especially if wearing a skirt.
That applies only to Jesus, of course. He's the one you will be staring up at. ;)
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And when and how do you think the guy will put in an appearance?
When he is ready.
And he's still not ready after two thousand years? I've known people like that.
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Wearing clean underwear would be a bonus, too. Especially if wearing a skirt.
That applies only to Jesus, of course. He's the one you will be staring up at. ;)
Well, I was thinking of all those people shooting up into the clouds, and the unfortunate view for those left behind...
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And when and how do you think the guy will put in an appearance?
When he is ready.
Well he isn't in any hurry! ;D
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Wearing clean underwear would be a bonus, too. Especially if wearing a skirt.
That applies only to Jesus, of course. He's the one you will be staring up at. ;)
Well, I was thinking of all those people shooting up into the clouds, and the unfortunate view for those left behind...
Yikes! ::)
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Which Christians of this forum believe in that complete nonsense?
It depends on what you mean by 'the rapture', Floo. There are several Christian takes on the topic. One was explored in the 'Left Behind' film that Channel 5 showed over the weekend.
If Floo were to get involved in a discussion with you Hope about her version/understanding of rapture, the discussion she would be lending credibility to your generally daft religious/faith based ideas, that up till now, the present time you've not supplied even one piece of verifiable evidence that might support your ideas; make them sound a little more credible.
I know you think you've supplied evidence, the only trouble with that's no one has seen it here on this forum and I could accept your excuse that you have shown it if it was just me that had missed it and although I know you'll find it difficult to believe I do from time to time very occasionally miss things but nobody has seen this evidence you often refer to.
ippy
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Which Christians of this forum believe in that complete nonsense?
It depends on what you mean by 'the rapture', Floo. There are several Christian takes on the topic. One was explored in the 'Left Behind' film that Channel 5 showed over the weekend.
If Floo were to get involved in a discussion with you Hope about her version/understanding of rapture, the discussion she would be lending credibility to your generally daft religious/faith based ideas, that up till now, the present time you've not supplied even one piece of verifiable evidence that might support your ideas; make them sound a little more credible.
I know you think you've supplied evidence, the only trouble with that's no one has seen it here on this forum and I could accept your excuse that you have shown it if it was just me that had missed it and although I know you'll find it difficult to believe I do from time to time very occasionally miss things but nobody has seen this evidence you often refer to.
ippy
Exactly. It would be like arguing about whether it is more beneficial to have fairies or unicorns at the bottom of one's garden! ;D
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I only asked which Christians believed in the rapture, that I believe to mean the so called 'second coming'.
The Rapture and the 2nd Coming, whilst interconnected, aren't theologically synonymous, Floo. That's why I asked for the clarification. As a result, this 'explanation' doesn't actually provide any clarification.
There is millennialism:
Millennialism (from millennium, Latin for "thousand years"), or chiliasm in Greek, is a belief held by some Christian denominations that there will be a Golden Age or Paradise on Earth in which "Christ will reign" for 1000 years prior to the final judgment and future eternal state (the "World to Come" of the New Heavens and New Earth). This belief is derived primarily from Revelation 20:1–6. Millennialism is a specific form of millenarianism.
Similarities to millennialism are found in Zoroastrianism. It held that there were successive thousand-year periods, each of which will end in a cataclysm of heresy and destruction, until the final destruction of evil and of the spirit of evil by a triumphant king of peace at the end of the final millennial age (supposed by some to be the year 2000). "Then Saoshyant makes the creatures again pure, and the resurrection and future existence occur" (Zand-i Vohuman Yasht 3:62).
There is amillennialism:
Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism), in Christian eschatology, involves the rejection of the belief that Jesus will have a literal, thousand-year-long, physical reign on the earth. This rejection contrasts with premillennial and some postmillennial interpretations of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation.
And then there are premillennialism and postmillennialism:
Premillennialism, in Christian eschatology, is the belief that Jesus will physically return to the earth before the Millennium, a literal thousand-year golden age of peace. This return is referred to as the Second Coming.
the doctrine that the Second Coming of Christ will be the culmination of the prophesied millennium of blessedness
(All quotes from wikipedia)
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OK, so you are asking which Christians here believe that Jesus will return. Glad we got there in the end.
Count me in on that then.
Likewise
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And when and how do you think the guy will put in an appearance?
When - unknown; how - it'll be obvious when it happens
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And he's still not ready after two thousand years? I've known people like that.
It might be that he doesn't feel that humanity are yet ready for his return. It could be that, in his love, he doesn't want anyone to ' be left behind' to use the phraseology that has been used before, so he is waiting until everyone believes in him.
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If Floo were to get involved in a discussion with you Hope about her version/understanding of rapture, ...
By posing the question that she did in her OP, she had already got 'involved in a discussion about her version/understanding of rapture,' ippy
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And he's still not ready after two thousand years? I've known people like that.
It might be that he doesn't feel that humanity are yet ready for his return. It could be that, in his love, he doesn't want anyone to ' be left behind' to use the phraseology that has been used before, so he is waiting until everyone believes in him.
I hope we don't get zombies again, scary stuff. :)
Matthew 27
The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
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And he's still not ready after two thousand years? I've known people like that.
It might be that he doesn't feel that humanity are yet ready for his return. It could be that, in his love, he doesn't want anyone to ' be left behind' to use the phraseology that has been used before, so he is waiting until everyone believes in him.
He'll have a fucking long wait for that, the way things are going.
What a shower of piss-poor madey-uppy excuses. Really. Aren't you people embarrassed to be seen coming out with this stuff?
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And he's still not ready after two thousand years? I've known people like that.
It might be that he doesn't feel that humanity are yet ready for his return. It could be that, in his love, he doesn't want anyone to ' be left behind' to use the phraseology that has been used before, so he is waiting until everyone believes in him.
I hope we don't get zombies again, scary stuff. :)
Matthew 27
The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
I saw that one but I didn't bother with the sequel.
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What a shower of piss-poor madey-uppy excuses. Really. Aren't you people embarrassed to be seen coming out with this stuff?
Well, 'you people' seem to want to be allowed to change your minds after your deaths. Is that any less of a 'piss-poor madey-uppy excuse'?
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And he's still not ready after two thousand years? I've known people like that.
It might be that he doesn't feel that humanity are yet ready for his return. It could be that, in his love, he doesn't want anyone to ' be left behind' to use the phraseology that has been used before, so he is waiting until everyone believes in him.
How does waiting longer help,as in the intervening time more and more people die not believing, so even if it came to a point where everyone currently alive believed, that number would be tiny compared to those that went before that did not.
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Well, 'you people' seem to want to be allowed to change your minds after your deaths. Is that any less of a 'piss-poor madey-uppy excuse'?
Well given that typically - in fact overwhelmingly, with exceedingly rare exceptions - atheists don't believe in any form of life after death, thus rendering the very concept of being able to change a mind that no longer exists vacuous, I'd say that you have a whole lotta straw there.
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What a shower of piss-poor madey-uppy excuses. Really. Aren't you people embarrassed to be seen coming out with this stuff?
Well, 'you people' seem to want to be allowed to change your minds after your deaths. Is that any less of a 'piss-poor madey-uppy excuse'?
That's our way - when we have new information we review our understanding, that's not unreasonable.
By contrast, some of the apparent demands of a loving being are, and that logical incongruity serves as part of the evidence that the specific claims of the religious don't add up.
We may well be wrong, but you don't have sufficient evidence to make that case stick.
O.
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What a shower of piss-poor madey-uppy excuses. Really. Aren't you people embarrassed to be seen coming out with this stuff?
Well, 'you people' seem to want to be allowed to change your minds after your deaths. Is that any less of a 'piss-poor madey-uppy excuse'?
If I'm alive after I'm dead I'll die of shock.
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And when and how do you think the guy will put in an appearance?
When he is ready.
He's nearly 2,000 years late. When are you going to give it up as a bad job?
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And when and how do you think the guy will put in an appearance?
When he is ready.
He's nearly 2,000 years late. When are you going to give it up as a bad job?
How long does it take for him to apply his make up?
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And when and how do you think the guy will put in an appearance?
When he is ready.
Well he isn't in any hurry! ;D
So what?
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And he's still not ready after two thousand years? I've known people like that.
It might be that he doesn't feel that humanity are yet ready for his return. It could be that, in his love, he doesn't want anyone to ' be left behind' to use the phraseology that has been used before, so he is waiting until everyone believes in him.
I hope we don't get zombies again, scary stuff. :)
Matthew 27
The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Wow! The 2015 Nobel Prize for tenuous links goes to jakswan. (Round of applause).
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And he's still not ready after two thousand years? I've known people like that.
It might be that he doesn't feel that humanity are yet ready for his return. It could be that, in his love, he doesn't want anyone to ' be left behind' to use the phraseology that has been used before, so he is waiting until everyone believes in him.
He'll have a fucking long wait for that, the way things are going.
What a shower of piss-poor madey-uppy excuses. Really. Aren't you people embarrassed to be seen coming out with this stuff?
If that mouthful came from one or two other atheists on this board, I could take it seriously, but you from you, ippy, nope.
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What a shower of piss-poor madey-uppy excuses. Really. Aren't you people embarrassed to be seen coming out with this stuff?
Well, 'you people' seem to want to be allowed to change your minds after your deaths. Is that any less of a 'piss-poor madey-uppy excuse'?
If I'm alive after I'm dead I'll die of shock.
:)
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And when and how do you think the guy will put in an appearance?
When he is ready.
He's nearly 2,000 years late. When are you going to give it up as a bad job?
Why should I? It's unlikely he will come back in my lifetime, IMO. I'll probably live, what, 30-40 years more, so why should I think there will be a time when I should give up on it?
Why do you say he is "nearly 2000 years late"?
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And when and how do you think the guy will put in an appearance?
When he is ready.
He's nearly 2,000 years late. When are you going to give it up as a bad job?
How long does it take for him to apply his make up?
Wow, this discussion is attracting some really intellectual posts.
Oops.
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And when and how do you think the guy will put in an appearance?
When he is ready.
He's nearly 2,000 years late. When are you going to give it up as a bad job?
How long does it take for him to apply his make up?
Wow, this discussion is attracting some really intellectual posts.
Oops.
Well it's a pretty silly thing to believe in the first place.
There is nothing intelligent about it. In fact the opposite is true.
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And he's still not ready after two thousand years? I've known people like that.
It might be that he doesn't feel that humanity are yet ready for his return. It could be that, in his love, he doesn't want anyone to ' be left behind' to use the phraseology that has been used before, so he is waiting until everyone believes in him.
He'll have a fucking long wait for that, the way things are going.
What a shower of piss-poor madey-uppy excuses. Really. Aren't you people embarrassed to be seen coming out with this stuff?
If that mouthful came from one or two other atheists on this board, I could take it seriously, but you from you, ippy, nope.
Am I supposed to be impressed?
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And when and how do you think the guy will put in an appearance?
When he is ready.
He's nearly 2,000 years late. When are you going to give it up as a bad job?
How long does it take for him to apply his make up?
Wow, this discussion is attracting some really intellectual posts.
Oops.
I was just thinking that the discussion is pretty well up to the intellectual level of the subject matter, if not more so.
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Christ has died
Christ is risen
Christ will come again
I firmly believe this with all my heart and soul.
Aleluia!
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Christ has died
Christ is risen
Christ will come again
I firmly believe this with all my heart and soul.
Aleluia!
No harm in that, Alan, if it makes you happy.
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I only asked which Christians believed in the rapture, that I believe to mean the so called 'second coming'.
The Rapture and the 2nd Coming, whilst interconnected, aren't theologically synonymous, Floo. That's why I asked for the clarification. As a result, this 'explanation' doesn't actually provide any clarification.
There is millennialism:
Millennialism (from millennium, Latin for "thousand years"), or chiliasm in Greek, is a belief held by some Christian denominations that there will be a Golden Age or Paradise on Earth in which "Christ will reign" for 1000 years prior to the final judgment and future eternal state (the "World to Come" of the New Heavens and New Earth). This belief is derived primarily from Revelation 20:1–6. Millennialism is a specific form of millenarianism.
Similarities to millennialism are found in Zoroastrianism. It held that there were successive thousand-year periods, each of which will end in a cataclysm of heresy and destruction, until the final destruction of evil and of the spirit of evil by a triumphant king of peace at the end of the final millennial age (supposed by some to be the year 2000). "Then Saoshyant makes the creatures again pure, and the resurrection and future existence occur" (Zand-i Vohuman Yasht 3:62).
There is amillennialism:
Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism), in Christian eschatology, involves the rejection of the belief that Jesus will have a literal, thousand-year-long, physical reign on the earth. This rejection contrasts with premillennial and some postmillennial interpretations of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation.
And then there are premillennialism and postmillennialism:
Premillennialism, in Christian eschatology, is the belief that Jesus will physically return to the earth before the Millennium, a literal thousand-year golden age of peace. This return is referred to as the Second Coming.
the doctrine that the Second Coming of Christ will be the culmination of the prophesied millennium of blessedness
(All quotes from wikipedia)
Like it matters.
ippy
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If Floo were to get involved in a discussion with you Hope about her version/understanding of rapture, ...
By posing the question that she did in her OP, she had already got 'involved in a discussion about her version/understanding of rapture,' ippy
Should have read a pointless discussion about her version/understanding of rapture.
ippy
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Christ has died
Christ is risen
Christ will come again
I firmly believe this with all my heart and soul.
Aleluia!
Hm, doubtless you do.
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It would be good if I could get the addresses of the Jesus lot here on this thread and send them to topnotchsigns.co hopefully there would be a bit of commission for me I can see them now walking up and down the various high-streets with the a boards on, some with the overhead slogan board too, others with all of that plus the loud hailers.
What a bunch, conjures up a marvelous picture.
ippy
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It would be good if I could get the addresses of the Jesus lot here on this thread and send them to topnotchsigns.co hopefully there would be a bit of commission for me I can see them now walking up and down the various high-streets with the a boards on, some with the overhead slogan board too, others with all of that plus the loud hailers.
What a bunch, conjures up a marvelous picture.
ippy
But nowhere near as spectacular as the pride marches. :D
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Christ has died
Christ is risen
Christ will come again
I firmly believe this with all my heart and soul.
Aleluia!
Bully for you! ::) As has been said on a number of occasions, just because you believe something fanciful to be true doesn't make it so!
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And he's still not ready after two thousand years? I've known people like that.
It might be that he doesn't feel that humanity are yet ready for his return. It could be that, in his love, he doesn't want anyone to ' be left behind' to use the phraseology that has been used before, so he is waiting until everyone believes in him.
I hope we don't get zombies again, scary stuff. :)
Matthew 27
The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Wow! The 2015 Nobel Prize for tenuous links goes to jakswan. (Round of applause).
I think the zombie theme is apt, have you not heard Jesus is alleged to have said 'unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you'.
Thanks for Nobel Prize though! :)
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And he's still not ready after two thousand years? I've known people like that.
It might be that he doesn't feel that humanity are yet ready for his return. It could be that, in his love, he doesn't want anyone to ' be left behind' to use the phraseology that has been used before, so he is waiting until everyone believes in him.
He'll have a fucking long wait for that, the way things are going.
What a shower of piss-poor madey-uppy excuses. Really. Aren't you people embarrassed to be seen coming out with this stuff?
If that mouthful came from one or two other atheists on this board, I could take it seriously, but you from you, ippy, nope.
Am I supposed to be impressed?
I'm not expecting you to, no.
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Good, because I'm not.
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It might be that he doesn't feel that humanity are yet ready for his return. It could be that, in his love, he doesn't want anyone to ' be left behind' to use the phraseology that has been used before, so he is waiting until everyone believes in him.
Then you must give up hope of him ever returning, my friend, because the day will never come when everyone believes in him ... unless somebody invents a mind-control apparatus.
And I am unanimous about that affirmation! (with apologies to Mrs Slocombe)
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So Floo it seems to me you watched the channel 5 film Left Behind which is incorrect and wrong so Floo what rapture are you bloating on about and a scripture might be useful.
~TW~
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So Floo it seems to me you watched the channel 5 film Left Behind which is incorrect and wrong so Floo what rapture are you bloating on about and a scripture might be useful.
~TW~
I haven't watched the film, I have read some of those idiot books. For rapture read second coming, which is a nonsense scenario!
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So Floo it seems to me you watched the channel 5 film Left Behind which is incorrect and wrong so Floo what rapture are you bloating on about and a scripture might be useful.
~TW~
I haven't watched the film, I have read some of those idiot books. For rapture read second coming, which is a nonsense scenario!
Well that is wonderful news it shows your brain can see how daft it is,now we must hope that you and your friends might start to see you can produce,no evidence for other life in the universe,and no evidence for nothing producing life.So the good news is their is hope for you .
~TW~
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So Floo it seems to me you watched the channel 5 film Left Behind which is incorrect and wrong so Floo what rapture are you bloating on about and a scripture might be useful.
~TW~
I haven't watched the film, I have read some of those idiot books. For rapture read second coming, which is a nonsense scenario!
Well that is wonderful news it shows your brain can see how daft it is,now we must hope that you and your friends might start to see you can produce,no evidence for other life in the universe,and no evidence for nothing producing life.So the good news is their is hope for you .
~TW~
TW the alcohol you are imbibing is too strong, water it down. I have no idea what you are wittering on about?
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How does waiting longer help,as in the intervening time more and more people die not believing, so even if it came to a point where everyone currently alive believed, that number would be tiny compared to those that went before that did not.
It wouldn't be that tiny, BR. Remember that, with the generally accepted figure of 2+ billion Christians as we write, and the historical figures, we're probably talking about 30% of the people who have lived since 33 AD being Christians.
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I think the zombie theme is apt, have you not heard Jesus is alleged to have said 'unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you'.
The problem with this comment, jaks, is that the 'flesh' and 'blood' is bread and wine, and it is clear from Jesus' words that this was a pictorial not a literal reference.
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How does waiting longer help,as in the intervening time more and more people die not believing, so even if it came to a point where everyone currently alive believed, that number would be tiny compared to those that went before that did not.
It wouldn't be that tiny, BR. Remember that, with the generally accepted figure of 2+ billion Christians as we write, and the historical figures, we're probably talking about 30% of the people who have lived since 33 AD being Christians.
But as time goes on more and more do not believe and die, and go into the ever growing pool of lost people.
Eventually that pool will be larger than the possible population of the Earth, so even if the whole Earth believed, the net loss is greater.
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But as time goes on more and more do not believe and die, and go into the ever growing pool of lost people.
Eventually that pool will be larger than the possible population of the Earth, so even if the whole Earth believed, the net loss is greater.
But still don't know exactly when Christ will return. It would be interesting to do the maths and work out at what point that becomes a 'tiny' proportion.
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But as time goes on more and more do not believe and die, and go into the ever growing pool of lost people.
Eventually that pool will be larger than the possible population of the Earth, so even if the whole Earth believed, the net loss is greater.
But still don't know exactly when Christ will return. It would be interesting to do the maths and work out at what point that becomes a 'tiny' proportion.
It's a big problem now!
Do you not care about ever growing number of people that die and are lost?
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But still don't know exactly when Christ will return.
Oh, I think we can help you there with an educated and informed guess ;)
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But as time goes on more and more do not believe and die, and go into the ever growing pool of lost people.
Eventually that pool will be larger than the possible population of the Earth, so even if the whole Earth believed, the net loss is greater.
But still don't know exactly when Christ will return. It would be interesting to do the maths and work out at what point that becomes a 'tiny' proportion.
It's a big problem now!
Do you not care about ever growing number of people that die and are lost?
NO. Will not God do that which is right.Are you concerned that you are hell bound,I get the impression you are not bothered.
My message to you is mourn him now later Matt 24:30 will be too late mourn him today Rev 1:8
~TW~
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How does waiting longer help,as in the intervening time more and more people die not believing, so even if it came to a point where everyone currently alive believed, that number would be tiny compared to those that went before that did not.
It wouldn't be that tiny, BR. Remember that, with the generally accepted figure of 2+ billion Christians as we write, and the historical figures, we're probably talking about 30% of the people who have lived since 33 AD being Christians.
But as time goes on more and more do not believe and die, and go into the ever growing pool of lost people.
Eventually that pool will be larger than the possible population of the Earth, so even if the whole Earth believed, the net loss is greater.
I think it is ironic that the most atheistic atheist on this board has the supernatural gift of prophecy.
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No, Vladdypops, it's not prophecy, just a bit of basic maths ;)
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But as time goes on more and more do not believe and die, and go into the ever growing pool of lost people.
Eventually that pool will be larger than the possible population of the Earth, so even if the whole Earth believed, the net loss is greater.
But still don't know exactly when Christ will return. It would be interesting to do the maths and work out at what point that becomes a 'tiny' proportion.
It's a big problem now!
Do you not care about ever growing number of people that die and are lost?
NO. Will not God do that which is right.Are you concerned that you are hell bound,I get the impression you are not bothered.
My message to you is mourn him now later Matt 24:30 will be too late mourn him today Rev 1:8
~TW~
Get real TW, stop spouting complete TWADDLE! ::)
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No, Vladdypops, it's not prophecy, just a bit of basic maths ;)
.......Did anyone else hear the clipped staccato of an Orwellian villain?
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No, Vlad. Like much, much else, it exists only in your head ;)
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But still don't know exactly when Christ will return.
Oh, I think we can help you there with an educated and informed guess ;)
I doubt it; people have been making guesses for centuries. The JWs have made 3 or 4 during my lifetime alone.
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Get real TW, stop spouting complete TWADDLE! ::)
He's only following in your footsteps, Floo. ;)
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No, Vlad. Like much, much else, it exists only in your head ;)
But nothing exists in yours.....eh,Shakey ;)
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I doubt it
Goooood! That's a start!
people have been making guesses for centuries. The JWs have made 3 or 4 during my lifetime alone.
You misunderstand - I said an educated and informed guess, i.e. one informed by evidence, observation and reason, so the loony fantasies of that motley crew don't apply.
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Goooood! That's a start!
You're glad that I disagree with you?
You misunderstand - I said an educated and informed guess, i.e. one informed by evidence, observation and reason, so the loony fantasies of that motley crew don't apply.
Sorry to disappoint you, Shakes. The JWs have sought to use that very evidence, observation and reason to come up with their predictions.
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You're glad that I disagree with you?
Not in the way you mean. If you and I disagree it's a sign that I must by definition be doing something right, given the manifest aberrations of thought you exhibit almost daily. No, I was encouraged by your expression of doubt. Doubt - scepticism - are good things; only parts but vital parts of the only sure method we have for consistently, reliably, repeatedly and demonstrably ascertaining what's true.
Sorry to disappoint you, Shakes. The JWs have sought to use that very evidence, observation and reason to come up with their predictions.
No they haven't.
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And when and how do you think the guy will put in an appearance?
When he is ready.
He's nearly 2,000 years late. When are you going to give it up as a bad job?
Why should I?
Because he's late.
It's unlikely he will come back in my lifetime,
Have you got scriptural support for that? It seems to me that most of the NT seems to think his return was imminent.
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And when and how do you think the guy will put in an appearance?
When he is ready.
He's nearly 2,000 years late. When are you going to give it up as a bad job?
Why should I?
Because he's late.
It's unlikely he will come back in my lifetime,
Have you got scriptural support for that? It seems to me that most of the NT seems to think his return was imminent.
Exactly. There are few texts that point to anything different. The notorious one in 2Peter 3 is a face-saving job, indicating that there were a large number of querulous people around at that time who thought he was a bit tardy in showing up.
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And when and how do you think the guy will put in an appearance?
When he is ready.
He's nearly 2,000 years late. When are you going to give it up as a bad job?
Why should I?
Because he's late.
It's unlikely he will come back in my lifetime,
Have you got scriptural support for that? It seems to me that most of the NT seems to think his return was imminent.
Would you please provide details. Jesus said he didn't know when he would return.
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And when and how do you think the guy will put in an appearance?
When he is ready.
He's nearly 2,000 years late. When are you going to give it up as a bad job?
Why should I?
Because he's late.
It's unlikely he will come back in my lifetime,
Have you got scriptural support for that? It seems to me that most of the NT seems to think his return was imminent.
Would you please provide details. Jesus said he didn't know when he would return.
You were asked first.
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And when and how do you think the guy will put in an appearance?
When he is ready.
He's nearly 2,000 years late. When are you going to give it up as a bad job?
Why should I?
Because he's late.
It's unlikely he will come back in my lifetime,
Have you got scriptural support for that? It seems to me that most of the NT seems to think his return was imminent.
Would you please provide details. Jesus said he didn't know when he would return.
You were asked first.
It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return. I am 57. Let's say I live until I am 87. That gives him 30 years to come back and it has been 2000 so far. Therefore, it seems unlikely he will come back before I die.
That is my reasoning. It may or may not be very good.
Now perhaps you will encourage JeremyP to provide details for why it seems to him that most of the NT seems to think his return was imminent.
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It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return.
His foreknowledge deserted him, did it?
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And when and how do you think the guy will put in an appearance?
When he is ready.
He's nearly 2,000 years late. When are you going to give it up as a bad job?
Why should I?
Because he's late.
It's unlikely he will come back in my lifetime,
Have you got scriptural support for that? It seems to me that most of the NT seems to think his return was imminent.
Would you please provide details. Jesus said he didn't know when he would return.
You were asked first.
It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return. I am 57. Let's say I live until I am 87. That gives him 30 years to come back and it has been 2000 so far. Therefore, it seems unlikely he will come back before I die.
That is my reasoning. It may or may not be very good.
Now perhaps you will encourage JeremyP to provide details for why it seems to him that most of the NT seems to think his return was imminent.
So there is no scriptural support.
I don't know if Jeremy would be bothered to cite any part of the Bible because we know the tools of spin you use so that it reconciles with your theology.
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It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return. I am 57. Let's say I live until I am 87. That gives him 30 years to come back and it has been 2000 so far. Therefore, it seems unlikely he will come back before I die.
Why is it 'unlikely' in that time-frame?
Is there some method behind your reasoning?
Also given that it is unlikely using your reasoning, when would be 'more likely'?
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It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return.
But he also said it would be before the end of "this generation".
Also, Paul seemed fairly convinced it wasn't going to be long.
Your Messiah is a busted flush, I'm afraid.
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It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return. I am 57. Let's say I live until I am 87. That gives him 30 years to come back and it has been 2000 so far. Therefore, it seems unlikely he will come back before I die.
Why is it 'unlikely' in that time-frame?
Because Jesus is dead and not coming back. It's unlikely in any time frame.
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It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return.
His foreknowledge deserted him, did it?
It always seemed rather odd that Jesus who is God did not know when he would be coming back.
Still, not knowing when an event is going to happen does not imply it is not going to happen soon. I don't know when I will next eat a pizza, but I bet it will be before 2,000 years are up.
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It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return.
His foreknowledge deserted him, did it?
No. Why do you ask?
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And when and how do you think the guy will put in an appearance?
When he is ready.
He's nearly 2,000 years late. When are you going to give it up as a bad job?
Why should I?
Because he's late.
It's unlikely he will come back in my lifetime,
Have you got scriptural support for that? It seems to me that most of the NT seems to think his return was imminent.
Would you please provide details. Jesus said he didn't know when he would return.
You were asked first.
It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return. I am 57. Let's say I live until I am 87. That gives him 30 years to come back and it has been 2000 so far. Therefore, it seems unlikely he will come back before I die.
That is my reasoning. It may or may not be very good.
Now perhaps you will encourage JeremyP to provide details for why it seems to him that most of the NT seems to think his return was imminent.
So there is no scriptural support.
For what? For Jesus' return being imminent at the time of the writing of the NT documents? Not that I know of. That was Jeremy's claim, not mine. I do accept that there is stuff which can be read that way, at least if you ignore the context, but the question is whether it is the right way.
I don't know if Jeremy would be bothered to cite any part of the Bible because we know the tools of spin you use so that it reconciles with your theology.
Waffle. Jeremy claimed, "It seems to me that most of the NT seems to think his return was imminent."
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It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return. I am 57. Let's say I live until I am 87. That gives him 30 years to come back and it has been 2000 so far. Therefore, it seems unlikely he will come back before I die.
Why is it 'unlikely' in that time-frame?
Is there some method behind your reasoning?
Only that Jesus said he did not know when he would return, that only the Father knew when. Not having any other pointers, I'm only guessing. I see no reason to think that it would be in the next 30 years, so would not like to claim that it will be within 30 years. That's all. I'm not claiming any insight.
Also given that it is unlikely using your reasoning, when would be 'more likely'?
Later than 30 years from now.
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The Bible authors were a little too canny to commit themselves, so they worded it in just the right way to entrap the credulous.
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The Bible authors were a little too canny to commit themselves, so they worded it in just the right way to entrap the credulous.
Len, these bible writers.......they didn't wear black top hats, capes and thin black moustaches by any chance?
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The Bible authors were a little too canny to commit themselves, so they worded it in just the right way to entrap the credulous.
Len, these bible writers.......they didn't wear black top hats, capes and thin black moustaches by any chance?
I wish they had ... they would have been more transparent.
Instead, they clad themselves with pseudo sanctity and "God's breath". I can understand the simple people of those days falling for it, but not modern educated types.
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It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return.
But he also said it would be before the end of "this generation".
Yes, the generation he was speaking of in that part of his discourse. So which one was that?
Also, Paul seemed fairly convinced it wasn't going to be long.
So will you be giving any specifics? Do you have any?
Your Messiah is a busted flush, I'm afraid.
A mere repeat of what you put in your previous post, "I'm afraid."
Look, if you want to make a serious point, please do go ahead and make it. Give some specifics.
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And when and how do you think the guy will put in an appearance?
When he is ready.
He's nearly 2,000 years late. When are you going to give it up as a bad job?
Why should I?
Because he's late.
It's unlikely he will come back in my lifetime,
Have you got scriptural support for that? It seems to me that most of the NT seems to think his return was imminent.
Would you please provide details. Jesus said he didn't know when he would return.
He gave the impression he would return in the lifetime of his disciples, 'this generation will not pass away', etc.
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The Bible authors were a little too canny to commit themselves, so they worded it in just the right way to entrap the credulous.
Len, these bible writers.......they didn't wear black top hats, capes and thin black moustaches by any chance?
I wish they had ... they would have been more transparent.
Instead, they clad themselves with pseudo sanctity and "God's breath". I can understand the simple people of those days falling for it, but not modern educated types.
I think things aren't as simplistic as you are making them Len We find God crops up in philosophy, as an influence in art and music, cosmology and yeah, very much in antitheism because God is what they orbit around.
In terms of education British types specialise too soon to be of any use beyond their chosen specialism.
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I think things aren't as simplistic as you are making them Len We find God crops up in philosophy, as an influence in art and music, cosmology and yeah, very much in antitheism because God is what they orbit around.
In terms of education British types specialise too soon to be of any use beyond their chosen specialism.
That's hardly surprising, Vladdy! God stories are romantic and appealing to the human mind, like all good works of art.
So keep the romance but recognise it for what it is ... fiction.
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He gave the impression he would return in the lifetime of his disciples, 'this generation will not pass away', etc.
Unfortunately, Floo, the Greek word that some translators translate as 'generation' in English doesn't necessarily have the same meaning as in English. In Greek, it referred to 'race, family or generation'.
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That's hardly surprising, Vladdy! God stories are romantic and appealing to the human mind, like all good works of art.
I'm not sure which version of the Bible you're reading Len to see the stories as romantic. I'd put that at the opposite end of the literary spectrum to the contents of the Bible.
So keep the romance but recognise it for what it is ... fiction.
Since there is precious little romance in the material - see above - why should anyone regard it as fiction? Is it because you regard it all as so possible as not to fit the idea that 'truth can be stranger than fiction'? ;)
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I think things aren't as simplistic as you are making them Len We find God crops up in philosophy, as an influence in art and music, cosmology and yeah, very much in antitheism because God is what they orbit around.
In terms of education British types specialise too soon to be of any use beyond their chosen specialism.
That's hardly surprising, Vladdy! God stories are romantic and appealing to the human mind, like all good works of art.
So keep the romance but recognise it for what it is ... fiction.
That's rubbish as your type frequently complain of the 'horror' content particularly of the OT but increasingly of the crucifixion too.
So you seem to be arguing that the Bible is a)cosy and B) horrific simultaneously.
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But he also said it would be before the end of "this generation".
In this you are correct, jeremy. So, let's delve a bit and see what the word 'generation' that is used in the Greek actually meant. It could mean those people who were born within a 20-25 year period - in the way that English tends to use the term; however, it could also be used to refer to a race (in this case the Jews) or a family - a whole string of 'generations'.
Also, Paul seemed fairly convinced it wasn't going to be long.
Its worth rereading what he said, jeremy. He didn't state that it wasn't going to be long, but encouraged the believers to live AS IF it wasn't going to be long. In other words, it could have been imminent (ie within the lifetime of those Jesus had taught and lived amongst) but it might not - so live as if it was going to be. Think, for instance, of the story in Matthew 25 of the ten young women who went out to greet the bridegroom; 5 of them took extra oil lest he was delayed, and 5 didn't.
Your Messiah is a busted flush, I'm afraid.
I've yet to see any evidence for this oft-repeated sentiment, jeremy. Do you have any.
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As expected, spin, different translations and context so that it means not what it says but what you want it to mean.
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It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return. I am 57. Let's say I live until I am 87. That gives him 30 years to come back and it has been 2000 so far. Therefore, it seems unlikely he will come back before I die.
Why is it 'unlikely' in that time-frame?
Is there some method behind your reasoning?
Only that Jesus said he did not know when he would return, that only the Father knew when. Not having any other pointers, I'm only guessing. I see no reason to think that it would be in the next 30 years, so would not like to claim that it will be within 30 years. That's all. I'm not claiming any insight.
Also given that it is unlikely using your reasoning, when would be 'more likely'?
Later than 30 years from now.
I thought Jesus was his own father?
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It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return.
His foreknowledge deserted him, did it?
It always seemed rather odd that Jesus who is God did not know when he would be coming back.
Important point that, but then we would be getting onto the nature(s) of Jesus if we went down that route. If you would like to pursue it, perhaps a separate thread would be better.
Still, not knowing when an event is going to happen does not imply it is not going to happen soon.
But that was not what you wrote. You said the NT says it was imminent, not that it did not say it was not far off. I don't know when I will next eat a pizza, but I bet it will be before 2,000 years are up.
So what. I don't know when we will run out of oil, but I don't know when. Why do you think your pizza analogy is any more relevant?
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The Bible authors were a little too canny to commit themselves, so they worded it in just the right way to entrap the credulous.
OK, demonstrate this is correct rather than Len just making an offhand, unsubstantiatable comment on a Tuesday morning.
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The Bible authors were a little too canny to commit themselves, so they worded it in just the right way to entrap the credulous.
Len, these bible writers.......they didn't wear black top hats, capes and thin black moustaches by any chance?
I wish they had ... they would have been more transparent.
Instead, they clad themselves with pseudo sanctity and "God's breath". I can understand the simple people of those days falling for it, but not modern educated types.
Is that meant to be an argument for something?
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...Have you got scriptural support for that? It seems to me that most of the NT seems to think his return was imminent.
Would you please provide details. Jesus said he didn't know when he would return.
He gave the impression he would return in the lifetime of his disciples, 'this generation will not pass away', etc.
Which generation was he referring to? Where are you quoting from, Floo?
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As expected, spin, different translations and context so that it means not what it says but what you want it to mean.
As expected, jakswan won't actually engage with the argument.
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...
I thought Jesus was his own father?
Oh, good grief! How long have you been discussing Christianity and still think such stuff?
Tell me this is a wind up, please.
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As expected, spin, different translations and context so that it means not what it says but what you want it to mean.
As expected, jakswan won't actually engage with the argument.
Once again Alien fails to accept criticism. :)
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It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return.
His foreknowledge deserted him, did it?
No. Why do you ask?
Ah, so when he said he didn't know, what he meant to say was "I'm not telling you"?
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He gave the impression he would return in the lifetime of his disciples, 'this generation will not pass away', etc.
Unfortunately, Floo, the Greek word that some translators translate as 'generation' in English doesn't necessarily have the same meaning as in English. In Greek, it referred to 'race, family or generation'.
Another EXCUSE, as it doesn't fit in with what you want to believe! ;D
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As expected, spin, different translations and context so that it means not what it says but what you want it to mean.
As expected, jakswan won't actually engage with the argument.
Once again Alien fails to accept criticism. :)
Once again jakswan won't actually engage with the argument.
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It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return.
His foreknowledge deserted him, did it?
No. Why do you ask?
Ah, so when he said he didn't know, what he meant to say was "I'm not telling you"?
No. You asked if he had foreknowledge (of the event) which deserted him. Jesus did not have that foreknowledge at any point (as far as I can tell), so it could not have deserted him.
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He gave the impression he would return in the lifetime of his disciples, 'this generation will not pass away', etc.
Unfortunately, Floo, the Greek word that some translators translate as 'generation' in English doesn't necessarily have the same meaning as in English. In Greek, it referred to 'race, family or generation'.
Another EXCUSE, as it doesn't fit in with what you want to believe! ;D
Once again, Floo fails to engage with the actual argument.
Actually, I disagree with my mate Hope here.
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It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return.
His foreknowledge deserted him, did it?
No. Why do you ask?
Ah, so when he said he didn't know, what he meant to say was "I'm not telling you"?
No. You asked if he had foreknowledge (of the event) which deserted him. Jesus did not have that foreknowledge at any point (as far as I can tell), so it could not have deserted him.
So much for being god.
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It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return.
His foreknowledge deserted him, did it?
No. Why do you ask?
Ah, so when he said he didn't know, what he meant to say was "I'm not telling you"?
No. You asked if he had foreknowledge (of the event) which deserted him. Jesus did not have that foreknowledge at any point (as far as I can tell), so it could not have deserted him.
So much for being god.
Sigh. If you want to disagree with what Christianity claims, at least disagree with what it claims.
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You all claim different things, Alan. That there is no Christian consensus is not my fault or my problem, but yours. So instead of the brush off, why not explain what you mean.
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Only that Jesus said he did not know when he would return, that only the Father knew when. Not having any other pointers, I'm only guessing. I see no reason to think that it would be in the next 30 years, so would not like to claim that it will be within 30 years.
That kind of implies that there is something 'missing' which if present might have given you a reason to 'guess' a shorter time-frame from now.
What kind of pointers if present would possibly give you reason to indicate that it might be in the next 30 years or so?
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Wearing clean underwear would be a bonus, too. Especially if wearing a skirt.
That applies only to Jesus, of course. He's the one you will be staring up at. ;)
Well, I was thinking of all those people shooting up into the clouds, and the unfortunate view for those left behind...
They will be too busy crying and gritting their teeth to notice. Best buying a gum sheild... :-X
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;D ;D ;D
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Wearing clean underwear would be a bonus, too. Especially if wearing a skirt.
That applies only to Jesus, of course. He's the one you will be staring up at. ;)
Well, I was thinking of all those people shooting up into the clouds, and the unfortunate view for those left behind...
They will be too busy crying and gritting their teeth to notice. Best buying a gum sheild... :-X
Didn't I hear a Christian call you a heretic, you'll be doing the crying. :)
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He gave the impression he would return in the lifetime of his disciples, 'this generation will not pass away', etc.
Unfortunately, Floo, the Greek word that some translators translate as 'generation' in English doesn't necessarily have the same meaning as in English. In Greek, it referred to 'race, family or generation'.
Another EXCUSE, as it doesn't fit in with what you want to believe! ;D
Once again, Floo fails to engage with the actual argument.
Actually, I disagree with my mate Hope here.
Occam's Razor, Alan. Please apply it. Hope needs to apply it even more. He wants the Greek 'genea' to mean something different every time it appears in the NT. You adopt the old Jehovah's Witness tactic (which I saw through when I was fourteen) of thinking the 'generation' in Matt 24 might mean "that generation" rather than "this generation". It's all very silly, and always reveals a degree of desperation in those who employ these tactics. It certainly shows no intellectual integrity whatsoever, but does reveal enormous confirmation bias.
Jeremy's original assertion stands - throughout most of the NT, the second coming is referred to as being imminent. Peter attempts a rescue operation. Paul changes the emphasis of his thought from his early epistle to the Thessalonians, to the more mature idea of "Christ within". But, as can be seen from his late epistle to the Romans, he never fully abandoned the idea of the not-too-distant return of Christ.
I don't expect you to abandon your belief in the eventual return of Christ as a result of anything you read on here. After all, Christians of a certain type have kept predicting the return of Christ with monotonous regularity down the centuries (with a ludicrous increase in the predictions during the last 200 years). Fortunately, a large number of scholars, Christian and otherwise, have been prepared to abandon all the ridiculous attempts to argue away the uncomfortable truth, and accept that in this matter, Jesus and Paul got it wrong.
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It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return.
His foreknowledge deserted him, did it?
No. Why do you ask?
Ah, so when he said he didn't know, what he meant to say was "I'm not telling you"?
No. You asked if he had foreknowledge (of the event) which deserted him. Jesus did not have that foreknowledge at any point (as far as I can tell), so it could not have deserted him.
The foreknowledge he claimed he did not have, referred to "the day and the hour" - not to the period in question, about which he was specific.
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He gave the impression he would return in the lifetime of his disciples, 'this generation will not pass away', etc.
Unfortunately, Floo, the Greek word that some translators translate as 'generation' in English doesn't necessarily have the same meaning as in English. In Greek, it referred to 'race, family or generation'.
Another EXCUSE, as it doesn't fit in with what you want to believe! ;D
Once again, Floo fails to engage with the actual argument.
Actually, I disagree with my mate Hope here.
Occam's Razor, Alan. Please apply it. Hope needs to apply it even more. He wants the Greek 'genea' to mean something different every time it appears in the NT. You adopt the old Jehovah's Witness tactic (which I saw through when I was fourteen) of thinking the 'generation' in Matt 24 might mean "that generation" rather than "this generation". It's all very silly, and always reveals a degree of desperation in those who employ these tactics. It certainly shows no intellectual integrity whatsoever, but does reveal enormous confirmation bias.
Hmm. I've not actually laid out my position in any detail yet, so am surprised you feel able to critique it.Jeremy's original assertion stands - throughout most of the NT, the second coming is referred to as being imminent. Peter attempts a rescue operation. Paul changes the emphasis of his thought from his early epistle to the Thessalonians, to the more mature idea of "Christ within". But, as can be seen from his late epistle to the Romans, he never fully abandoned the idea of the not-too-distant return of Christ.
It would be good if you and Jeremy were to actually tell us the verses you think you are getting your ideas from.
I don't expect you to abandon your belief in the eventual return of Christ as a result of anything you read on here. After all, Christians of a certain type have kept predicting the return of Christ with monotonous regularity down the centuries (with a ludicrous increase in the predictions during the last 200 years). Fortunately, a large number of scholars, Christian and otherwise, have been prepared to abandon all the ridiculous attempts to argue away the uncomfortable truth, and accept that in this matter, Jesus and Paul got it wrong.
So how about discussing what they actually said in a bit of detail if you think they got it wrong?
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It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return.
His foreknowledge deserted him, did it?
No. Why do you ask?
Ah, so when he said he didn't know, what he meant to say was "I'm not telling you"?
No. You asked if he had foreknowledge (of the event) which deserted him. Jesus did not have that foreknowledge at any point (as far as I can tell), so it could not have deserted him.
The foreknowledge he claimed he did not have, referred to "the day and the hour" - not to the period in question, about which he was specific.
OK, how about you being specific about what you think he claimed? So far all you have done is said that he and Paul got it wrong, but have been very vague.
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It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return.
His foreknowledge deserted him, did it?
No. Why do you ask?
Ah, so when he said he didn't know, what he meant to say was "I'm not telling you"?
No. You asked if he had foreknowledge (of the event) which deserted him. Jesus did not have that foreknowledge at any point (as far as I can tell), so it could not have deserted him.
The foreknowledge he claimed he did not have, referred to "the day and the hour" - not to the period in question, about which he was specific.
OK, how about you being specific about what you think he claimed? So far all you have done is said that he and Paul got it wrong, but have been very vague.
Bloody obvious, isn't it? I've said it often enough on this forum and elsewhere, referring to Schweitzer, Ehrman, Holloway, Armstrong, Cupitt, Spong and numerous other scholars who argue that Jesus and Paul believed that history was about to be wound up, culminating in the appearance of the "Son of Man" (later apparently identified with Jesus himself) within the lifetime of some the people that Jesus was speaking to : "There are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming into his kingdom" "You will not have passed over the cities of Israel till the Son of Man be come" i.e. This generation - the generation to whom he was speaking.
As for your quibble about you "not having laid out your position in detail yet" - it's no secret what it's going to be, since if you don't believe - as indicated in your post to Floo - that he wasn't referring to the generation to whom he was speaking, then he must be referring to a generation in the far distant future (necessarily so, since the second coming has apparently not occurred). i.e. you mean "that distant generation" QED. and other waffle, which is certainly going to be a completely different take from Hope's interpretation, who wants the Greek word in question to mean 'race' or something like (another familiar clutching-at-straws) - as if Jesus would have bothered to suggest that the Jewish people would not disappear off the face of the earth 'until all these things be fulfilled', since the implication of the text is that all peoples destiny would be wound up at the second coming.
Work it out amongst yourselves. The Bible in this instance is quite clear as to what was going on with regard to these prophecies, and it is equally clear that they have not been fulfilled. Still, you've always got 2Peter 3 to clutch on to, but it's all a bit desperate.
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It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return.
His foreknowledge deserted him, did it?
No. Why do you ask?
Ah, so when he said he didn't know, what he meant to say was "I'm not telling you"?
No. You asked if he had foreknowledge (of the event) which deserted him. Jesus did not have that foreknowledge at any point (as far as I can tell), so it could not have deserted him.
The foreknowledge he claimed he did not have, referred to "the day and the hour" - not to the period in question, about which he was specific.
OK, how about you being specific about what you think he claimed? So far all you have done is said that he and Paul got it wrong, but have been very vague.
Bloody obvious, isn't it? I've said it often enough on this forum and elsewhere, referring to Schweitzer, Ehrman, Holloway, Armstrong, Cupitt, Spong and numerous other scholars who argue that Jesus and Paul believed that history was about to be wound up, culminating in the appearance of the "Son of Man" (later apparently identified with Jesus himself) within the lifetime of some the people that Jesus was speaking to : "There are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming into his kingdom" "You will not have passed over the cities of Israel till the Son of Man be come" i.e. This generation - the generation to whom he was speaking.
Yes, I know you are well read. That's not me being sarcastic. I genuinely respect where you are coming from. However, if you want to demonstrate that Jesus and/or Paul were wrong, you need to quote them rather than other people's opinions about them, say where you got Paul's and Jesus' word from from and why you think they were wrong. Running off a list of names does not prove anything.
As for your quibble about you "not having laid out your position in detail yet" - it's no secret what it's going to be, since if you don't believe - as indicated in your post to Floo - that he wasn't referring to the generation to whom he was speaking, then he must be referring to a generation in the far distant future (necessarily so, since the second coming has apparently not occurred). i.e. you mean "that distant generation" QED. and other waffle, which is certainly going to be a completely different take from Hope's interpretation, who wants the Greek word in question to mean 'race' or something like (another familiar clutching-at-straws) - as if Jesus would have bothered to suggest that the Jewish people would not disappear off the face of the earth 'until all these things be fulfilled', since the implication of the text is that all peoples destiny would be wound up at the second coming.
Work it out amongst yourselves. The Bible in this instance is quite clear as to what was going on with regard to these prophecies, and it is equally clear that they have not been fulfilled. Still, you've always got 2Peter 3 to clutch on to, but it's all a bit desperate.
Then you have indeed misunderstood me. I am not arguing for a far off time (from Jesus' time). I'd be happy to explain my actual position if you like.
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It has been 2000 years or so since he said he would return. He said he did not know when he would return.
His foreknowledge deserted him, did it?
No. Why do you ask?
Ah, so when he said he didn't know, what he meant to say was "I'm not telling you"?
No. You asked if he had foreknowledge (of the event) which deserted him. Jesus did not have that foreknowledge at any point (as far as I can tell), so it could not have deserted him.
The foreknowledge he claimed he did not have, referred to "the day and the hour" - not to the period in question, about which he was specific.
OK, how about you being specific about what you think he claimed? So far all you have done is said that he and Paul got it wrong, but have been very vague.
Bloody obvious, isn't it? I've said it often enough on this forum and elsewhere, referring to Schweitzer, Ehrman, Holloway, Armstrong, Cupitt, Spong and numerous other scholars who argue that Jesus and Paul believed that history was about to be wound up, culminating in the appearance of the "Son of Man" (later apparently identified with Jesus himself) within the lifetime of some the people that Jesus was speaking to : "There are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming into his kingdom" "You will not have passed over the cities of Israel till the Son of Man be come" i.e. This generation - the generation to whom he was speaking.
Yes, I know you are well read. That's not me being sarcastic. I genuinely respect where you are coming from. However, if you want to demonstrate that Jesus and/or Paul were wrong, you need to quote them rather than other people's opinions about them, say where you got Paul's and Jesus' word from from and why you think they were wrong. Running off a list of names does not prove anything.
As for your quibble about you "not having laid out your position in detail yet" - it's no secret what it's going to be, since if you don't believe - as indicated in your post to Floo - that he wasn't referring to the generation to whom he was speaking, then he must be referring to a generation in the far distant future (necessarily so, since the second coming has apparently not occurred). i.e. you mean "that distant generation" QED. and other waffle, which is certainly going to be a completely different take from Hope's interpretation, who wants the Greek word in question to mean 'race' or something like (another familiar clutching-at-straws) - as if Jesus would have bothered to suggest that the Jewish people would not disappear off the face of the earth 'until all these things be fulfilled', since the implication of the text is that all peoples destiny would be wound up at the second coming.
Work it out amongst yourselves. The Bible in this instance is quite clear as to what was going on with regard to these prophecies, and it is equally clear that they have not been fulfilled. Still, you've always got 2Peter 3 to clutch on to, but it's all a bit desperate.
Then you have indeed misunderstood me. I am not arguing for a far off time (from Jesus' time). I'd be happy to explain my actual position if you like.
Does underpants not know that this=: "There are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming into his kingdom" "You will not have passed over the cities of Israel till the Son of Man be come" i.e. This generation - the generation to whom he was speaking.= Has taken place. Maybe Alien you should ask underpants when the kingdom was established and what the kingdom is.It is obvious he does not know.
~TW~
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You know nothing either TW, that is obvious! ::)
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You know nothing either TW, that is obvious! ::)
The butchers block is back
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He gave the impression he would return in the lifetime of his disciples, 'this generation will not pass away', etc.
Unfortunately, Floo, the Greek word that some translators translate as 'generation' in English doesn't necessarily have the same meaning as in English. In Greek, it referred to 'race, family or generation'.
In context, it clearly means "generation". The other meanings are bullshit designed to avoid embarrassment.
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Wearing clean underwear would be a bonus, too. Especially if wearing a skirt.
That applies only to Jesus, of course. He's the one you will be staring up at. ;)
Well, I was thinking of all those people shooting up into the clouds, and the unfortunate view for those left behind...
They will be too busy crying and gritting their teeth to notice. Best buying a gum sheild... :-X
Didn't I hear a Christian call you a heretic, you'll be doing the crying. :)
If you don't know why you should not have written the above then you are not as smart as you think you are.
A Christian as defined by what....
You need to stay within your depth...
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He gave the impression he would return in the lifetime of his disciples, 'this generation will not pass away', etc.
Unfortunately, Floo, the Greek word that some translators translate as 'generation' in English doesn't necessarily have the same meaning as in English. In Greek, it referred to 'race, family or generation'.
In context, it clearly means "generation". The other meanings are bullshit designed to avoid embarrassment.
I see you kept the banana skin and through the banana away....
The Kingdom being the focus point. Upon his death and resurrection the Kingdom was established even before that generation passed.
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The Kingdom being the focus point. Upon his death and resurrection the Kingdom was established even before that generation passed.
Where is it then?
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He gave the impression he would return in the lifetime of his disciples, 'this generation will not pass away', etc.
Unfortunately, Floo, the Greek word that some translators translate as 'generation' in English doesn't necessarily have the same meaning as in English. In Greek, it referred to 'race, family or generation'.
In context, it clearly means "generation". The other meanings are bullshit designed to avoid embarrassment.
I see you kept the banana skin and through the banana away....
The Kingdom being the focus point. Upon his death and resurrection the Kingdom was established even before that generation passed.
A meaningless statement! ::)
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The Kingdom being the focus point. Upon his death and resurrection the Kingdom was established even before that generation passed.
Where is it then?
It is within....
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You all claim different things, Alan. That there is no Christian consensus is not my fault or my problem, but yours. So instead of the brush off, why not explain what you mean.
Andy, unlike many religions where an adherent's relationship is with a set of rules, Christianity is all about a relationship with a sentient being - the Creator.
As I am sure you will accept, that type of relationship is always far more diverse and personal than any relationship with sets of rules. I doubt that, if those of us with siblings were to explain our and our siblings' relationships with our parents, we would say that the relationship was identical for each of us.
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The Kingdom being the focus point. Upon his death and resurrection the Kingdom was established even before that generation passed.
Where is it then?
It is within....
All in the mind! ;D
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You all claim different things, Alan. That there is no Christian consensus is not my fault or my problem, but yours. So instead of the brush off, why not explain what you mean.
Andy, unlike many religions where an adherent's relationship is with a set of rules, Christianity is all about a relationship with a sentient being - the Creator.
As I am sure you will accept, that type of relationship is always far more diverse and personal than any relationship with sets of rules. I doubt that, if those of us with siblings were to explain our and our siblings' relationships with our parents, we would say that the relationship was identical for each of us.
What has this got to do with anything? Something is either true about Jesus or it is not true. That Jesus took you to feed the ducks but played Subbuteo with your brother is of no consequence.
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Just when you think religionists couldn't get any more daft than they are allready?
'The Rapture', ludicrous.
ippy
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The Kingdom being the focus point. Upon his death and resurrection the Kingdom was established even before that generation passed.
Where is it then?
It is within....
So it doesn't really exist then.
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The Kingdom being the focus point. Upon his death and resurrection the Kingdom was established even before that generation passed.
Where is it then?
It is within....
All in the mind! ;D
It is all in the Words of Christ ...IN THE BIBLE...
King James Bible
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
What you believe you know about the bible is all in your mind as the things you write clearly prove. When do you intend to read it, so you know what it actually teaches?
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The Kingdom being the focus point. Upon his death and resurrection the Kingdom was established even before that generation passed.
Where is it then?
It is within....
All in the mind! ;D
It is all in the Words of Christ ...IN THE BIBLE...
King James Bible
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
What you believe you know about the bible is all in your mind as the things you write clearly prove. When do you intend to read it, so you know what it actually teaches?
Just as everything you write is in your mind too! ;D ;D ;D
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The Kingdom being the focus point. Upon his death and resurrection the Kingdom was established even before that generation passed.
Where is it then?
It is within....
All in the mind! ;D
It is all in the Words of Christ ...IN THE BIBLE...
King James Bible
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
What you believe you know about the bible is all in your mind as the things you write clearly prove. When do you intend to read it, so you know what it actually teaches?
Just as everything you write is in your mind too! ;D ;D ;D
The quotes are from the Bible, not from Sassy's mind. I thought you'd read it? You should know then.
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The second coming has been predicted imminently for centuries, and still no show. ::) Why should it be given anymore credence than the idiots who give specific dates for its ending, like Harold Campion and the US pastor who said it would end yesterday?
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The second coming has been predicted imminently for centuries, and still no show. ::) Why should it be given anymore credence than the idiots who give specific dates for its ending, like Harold Campion and the US pastor who said it would end yesterday?
The signs that would come before it, have not yet happened.
We will all know when Christ returns they won't need to predict it, and it cannot be predicted.
As in the days of the floo-d lol... People will carry on doing everything as normal and bam there it is, the end.
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The signs that would come before it, have not yet happened.
What signs?
Is there a check-list?