Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Anchorman on October 21, 2018, 10:25:08 PM
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I found this letter from a 'conshie' to his one year old daughter, dated 1917, incredibly moving and worth a share. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROKLFeYGhE8&fbclid=IwAR0Brnqmg19u8oZvsWT1E2X98d-NzIw9XYFuarY0HXD6CytHHYmHwHZJ4jM
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I've just ordered some white poppies from the PPU, and will wear one alongside a red poppy on 11th November.
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I've just ordered some white poppies from the PPU, and will wear one alongside a red poppy on 11th November.
I've just ordered some white poppies from the PPU, and will wear one alongside a red poppy on 11th November.
Snap.
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Did I post it twice? One must have been deleted by a mod.
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One of my grandfather's didn't approve of war, however whilst he didn't wish to fight, he did join the army during WW1 and work with the army medics at the frontline, which was the right thing to do, imo.
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I wear a red and a white poppy too.
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One of my grandfather's didn't approve of war, however whilst he didn't wish to fight, he did join the army during WW1 and work with the army medics at the frontline, which was the right thing to do, imo.
Why was it the right thing to do?
I think NOT volunteering to fight in WWI was the brave thing to do.
How many young men died for their'betters' without even being able to vote for them?
(I write as someone whose grandfather fought at the Somme, and came back sickened and detesting the flag under which he fought.)
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I am glad my grandfather did what I believe to be the right thing, he helped those who were injured and put himself at risk by doing so.
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I don't wear a poppy at all, and get glared at by the people collecting outside Tesco. I do donate to the village collection, but don't want to wear one. That should be my private business but apparently it's up there with going around wearing a sign saying 'I kick puppies'.
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One of my grandfather's didn't approve of war, however whilst he didn't wish to fight, he did join the army during WW1 and work with the army medics at the frontline, which was the right thing to do, imo.
Was that joining the battle regiments though or was that joining a medical corp? Aren't they different things? Or am I wrong?
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I don't wear a poppy at all, and get glared at by the people collecting outside Tesco. I do donate to the village collection, but don't want to wear one. That should be my private business but apparently it's up there with going around wearing a sign saying 'I kick puppies'.
I wear both a red and a white poppy...thankfully, I can't see the glares. But there's nothing worse than the poppy police. The whole point of the act is voluntary. To force the poppy on anyone defeats its' pyrpose. I donate to PoppyScoland (now that it is no longer the Earl Haig fund). (Mind you, I was proud to be insulted by a twit who called me a 'blind b------d' and a nazi scum because I wore a lapel broach with the poppy and saltire on it....I took the greatest delight in telling him that the broach was manufactured by war veterans at the Lady Haig factory by PoppyScotland !)
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I don't wear a poppy at all, and get glared at by the people collecting outside Tesco. I do donate to the village collection, but don't want to wear one. That should be my private business but apparently it's up there with going around wearing a sign saying 'I kick puppies'.
Neither do I, usually - my tiny protest at poppy-fascism. This year, though, being the centenary of the armistice, I will wear a red and a white one, as I said above.
Good for your grandfather, LR.
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I always wear my RED poppy and respect the 3 minute silence. I was born five years after WW2, but the war was never far from our thoughts as the evidence of the German occupation was all around us until well into the 60s. As I have mentioned many times, my childhood home hosted 13 Germans who left a lot of stuff behind including their helmets, ammunition and even a grenade I came across when I was ten.
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I don't wear a poppy at all, and get glared at by the people collecting outside Tesco. I do donate to the village collection, but don't want to wear one. That should be my private business but apparently it's up there with going around wearing a sign saying 'I kick puppies'.
It is your private business. It annoys me that everyone appearing on TV 'has' to wear one. Considering they fall off so easily, leaving you with just a pin, I don't blame anyone for not wearing a poppy.
I bought a couple of poppy 'brooches' two or three years ago, one red from a store and one white online from an organisation, the money went to the relevant charities and, like you, I put money in tins. Last year I didn't wear either poppy, just didn't think of it. No-one said anything to me. My husband never, ever wears one but is happy to donate.
Poppy fascism gets my goat. Are children coerced into poppy wearing by schools? Don't think mine were, I'd remember something like that.
LR's grandfather probably joined the Royal Army Medical Corps.
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I only know my grandfather, who died before I was born, helped the medics I don't know if he was part of the RAMC. Before the WW2 he was a top civil servant who had a claim to fame.
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I always wear my RED poppy and respect the 3 minute silence. I was born five years after WW2, but the war was never far from our thoughts as the evidence of the German occupation was all around us until well into the 60s. As I have mentioned many times, my childhood home hosted 13 Germans who left a lot of stuff behind including their helmets, ammunition and even a grenade I came across when I was ten.
We had a POW camp - Pennylands - a mile outside the town.
After WWII, most of the Germans and some of the Italians went home; some stayed.
One especially was a great friend of mine; he married a local lass and they lived happily together till he died in 1999. Horst was a very proud German Scot, and ordained elder in my church.
He always wore both a red and a white poppy on Rememberance Sunday.
Curiously, one of his best friends was Murdoch Laurie....who had been in a POW camp in GERMANY after having been shot down in the Lancaster bomber he was serving in as a rear gunner.
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We had a POW camp - Pennylands - a mile outside the town.
After WWII, most of the Germans and some of the Italians went home; some stayed.
One especially was a great friend of mine; he married a local lass and they lived happily together till he died in 1999. Horst was a very proud German Scot, and ordained elder in my church.
He always wore both a red and a white poppy on Rememberance Sunday.
Curiously, one of his best friends was Murdoch Laurie....who had been in a POW camp in GERMANY after having been shot down in the Lancaster bomber he was serving in as a rear gunner.
My father was the foreman of the team putting bomb doors on the Lancaster bomber.
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'White Poppies are attention seeking rubbish'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45971456
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My white poppies arrived this morning. I'l wear one, along with a red one, during the week before Remembrance Sunday (which coincidentally falls on 11th this year).
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I don't think white poppies should be worn on Remembrance Day, which is to remember members of the armed forces killed during the two world wars. If people wish to remember those pacifists who refused to join up, it should be done on a different day, imo.
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I don't think white poppies should be worn on Remembrance Day, which is to remember members of the armed forces killed during the two world wars. If people wish to remember those pacifists who refused to join up, it should be done on a different day, imo.
My aforementioned grandfather wore nether...and, after his experience of the Somme, threatened to use the union jack - or butcher's apron - as a toilet roll, should any come within his hands reach.
It's a matter of choice, I suppose.
I wear a white poppy as a symbolof peacer, and a red to remember the useless slaughter of young lives.
Their nationality doesn't matter, nor does the flag they fought under.
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I don't think white poppies should be worn on Remembrance Day, which is to remember members of the armed forces killed during the two world wars. If people wish to remember those pacifists who refused to join up, it should be done on a different day, imo.
That isn't what the white poppy is for.
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That isn't what the white poppy is for.
Quite.
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I don't think white poppies should be worn on Remembrance Day, which is to remember members of the armed forces killed during the two world wars. If people wish to remember those pacifists who refused to join up, it should be done on a different day, imo.
Put your stick on the floor.
Pick it back up again by the other end.
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Put your stick on the floor.
Pick it back up again by the other end.
Ehhhhhhhhh?
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Ehhhhhhhhh?
Because if you did that you might have the right end.
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As this is our annual remembrance thread, I will post my annual link to the Best Bits threads where Gonnagle saved FastFlint's post
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Because if you did that you might have the right end.
I have no idea what you are talking about?
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I have no idea what you are talking about?
He's saying you had got the wrong end of the stick. ::)
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I have no idea what you are talking about?
You got the wrong end of the stick about what white poppies are for. So if you dropped your 'stick' and picked it up by the OTHER end you would have the right end of the stick.
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I have no idea what you are talking about?
Also, a statement should not be followed by a question mark.
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I don't wear a poppy at all, and get glared at by the people collecting outside Tesco. I do donate to the village collection, but don't want to wear one. That should be my private business but apparently it's up there with going around wearing a sign saying 'I kick puppies'.
Exactly what I do. I was quite happy to wear a poppy right up until the moment that it became a heinous crime not to in the eyes of some.
The red poppy does not glorify war, quite the reverse, in fact. By remembering the lives thrown away during the wars, we remember that it is not a glorious thing, but a human tragedy.
The Germans nearly won the war in 1914. It really would have been better for everybody if they had.
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I don't think white poppies should be worn on Remembrance Day, which is to remember members of the armed forces killed during the two world wars. If people wish to remember those pacifists who refused to join up, it should be done on a different day, imo.
Is the white poppy about remembering pacifists or is it about remembering everybody? Several hundred thousand German civilians died of starvation in the First World War as a direct result of the British blockade and and the civilian deaths in the Second World War especially in Germany and the USSR were astronomical.
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Is the white poppy about remembering pacifists or is it about remembering everybody? Several hundred thousand German civilians died of starvation in the First World War as a direct result of the British blockade and and the civilian deaths in the Second World War especially in Germany and the USSR were astronomical.
I associate white poppies with pacifists as it was their idea in the first place. I have always associated Remembrance Day with those who died on active service in the World Wars and other wars since then.
In my home island the 2 minute silence on Remembrance Sunday was mandatory, as soon as the gun sounded at 11am all traffic was expected to stop, and people out and about to respect it. I still honour it.
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I associate white poppies with pacifists as it was their idea in the first place. I have always associated Remembrance Day with those who died on active service in the World Wars and other wars since then.
In my home island the 2 minute silence on Remembrance Sunday was mandatory, as soon as the gun sounded at 11am all traffic was expected to stop, and people out and about to respect it. I still honour it.
Which doesn't mean the white poppy is about remembering pacifists.
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One of the greatest advocates of the white poppy was the late Rev George McLeod - 'lord McLeod of Funary'; former Moderator of the General Assembly of the CofS and founder of the Iona Community. George earned the MC in WW1 as a serving officer, but, sickened by the carnage, became a pacifist after the war, and later a minister. He said "Red for the oceans of blood we all spilt. Whute for the cleaner earth we work for with no desire to spill more."
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I associate white poppies with pacifists as it was their idea in the first place. I have always associated Remembrance Day with those who died on active service in the World Wars and other wars since then.
In my home island the 2 minute silence on Remembrance Sunday was mandatory, as soon as the gun sounded at 11am all traffic was expected to stop, and people out and about to respect it. I still honour it.
I never remember it until afterwards. Dislike the television programmes, the cenotaph business and the Remembrance concert at the RAH but that's just personal preference, I understand people who do go for it.
Like others on here I see no conflict between wearing a white poppy for pacifism and a red one to honour those who died. Not surprising many who saw active service later became pacifists - & I haven't got hold of the wrong end of the stick. I do object to people being made to feel they are wrong if they don't commemorate in some way.
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The red poppy is for remembrance of all those who have died in wars, and the white poppy is for the hope for a future without war. It isn't specifically about pacifism or conscientious objectors.
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I never remember it until afterwards. Dislike the television programmes, the cenotaph business and the Remembrance concert at the RAH but that's just personal preference, I understand people who do go for it.
Like others on here I see no conflict between wearing a white poppy for pacifism and a red one to honour those who died. Not surprising many who saw active service later became pacifists - & I haven't got hold of the wrong end of the stick. I do object to people being made to feel they are wrong if they don't commemorate in some way.
You might not be here now, if it wasn't for those who sacrificed their lives for future generations.
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You might not be here now, if it wasn't for those who sacrificed their lives for future generations.
Hang on. Have you lookedat WW1? The Germans had universal male sufferage and a rudimentary welfarestate. Those young menslaughtered for 'king and country' did not even have the right - unless they were over 25 - to vote. The pension scheme was far more rudimentary. It could be argued that the German state was more 'modern' in outlook than that of britain. In anycase, theconflict was not aclash of civiisations; ideologies or the rest - it was a clash of imperialism; led mainly by those who thought their status in life was better than those who were butchered for them, regardless of whichever flag theywere told to fight for.
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You might not be here now, if it wasn't for those who sacrificed their lives for future generations.
That may or may not be true, but why does that mean someone is wrong for not watching a service, or wearing both a white and red poppy? White poppies remember all the fallen, not just the British armed forces. They remember, for example, all the civilians who died in the bombing raids at home and abroad.
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Remembrance Day is to honour those members of the armed services who died in the World wars and conflicts since then. Of course civilian deaths in war are terrible and maybe a day to specifically remember them too should be set aside.
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That may or may not be true, but why does that mean someone is wrong for not watching a service, or wearing both a white and red poppy? White poppies remember all the fallen, not just the British armed forces. They remember, for example, all the civilians who died in the bombing raids at home and abroad.
Exsctly.
The white poppy remembers the Americans, Russians Indians,Africans - and, yes, Japanese, Germans and the rest - as well as 'our boys'.
It remembers all those who died...the miners in the pits who were crushed - and their deaths unreported; factory workers, policemwn, whatever - every bit as vital to the 'war effort' but never given the same kudos.
On the unday before Rememberance Sunday each year, we have a pignant service in and outside church; two lit miners' lamps (Glennies) arelaid on the Communion table, and a poem recalling the hell of the underground miner is read. After the service, a wreath is laid at the 'miners cross'; two pit props welded to form a cross, on a green, tree rimmed hill next to the Kirk...the hill was the remains of a coal tip, now landscaped.
The miners who died underground were every bit as dead as the soldiers who were butchered for vainglory in France.
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Remembrance Day is to honour those members of the armed services who died in the World wars and conflicts since then. Of course civilian deaths in war are terrible and maybe a day to specifically remember them too should be set aside.
So: which are more important?
The men butchered for the cause of imperialism in WW1, or those who died in mine or factory without a gun to defend them?
Are they not every bit as dead?
Yet they swore no silly oath to 'king and country' and got no bits of tin to wear on their chest to prove their importance.
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Remembrance Day is to honour those members of the armed services who died in the World wars and conflicts since then. Of course civilian deaths in war are terrible and maybe a day to specifically remember them too should be set aside.
Surely the never again aspect applies to everyone who died? Why would you separate people out?
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Surely the never again aspect applies to everyone who died? Why would you separate people out?
Because Remembrance Day is about those in the armed forces that died in the world wars and other conflicts, not our hopes for the future, imo.
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Because Remembrance Day is about those in the armed forces that died in the world wars and other conflicts, not our hopes for the future, imo.
If we don't give thought to the future the remembrance is pointless
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If we don't give thought to the future the remembrance is pointless
Something on which we will have to agree to differ.
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Because Remembrance Day is about those in the armed forces that died in the world wars and other conflicts, not our hopes for the future, imo.
I think that the red poppy has always been about learning lessons from the past and taking them into the future.
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I always thought the subtext of "Lest we Forget" was that it could so easily happen again if we do forget. So FLoo I do think you are wrong. It is as much about remembering the people but also learning from it, remembering what happened to avoid it in the future.
Whether we are entirely successful in that respect is open to much debate.
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You might not be here now, if it wasn't for those who sacrificed their lives for future generations.
What a sublimely irrelevant comment, even by your standards!
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Something on which we will have to agree to differ.
The usual weasel words of people who've been defeated in argument but won't admit it.
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LR's opinions are not really irrelevant and don't forget, LR's Guernsey family & friends were particularly affected by WWll. We were fortunate not to be invaded & starved.
Just as people who do not mark the day in any way (that doesn't include you & I because we've bought red poppies as well as white), don't deserve to be criticised, neither do people who do commemorate it. Each according to their own conscience. So on this occasion it is a good idea to agree to differ (imo ;) ).
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Weren't most of our families affected by WW2? My family were in the East End and What happened there was different, but still traumatising. I don't think my parents or grandparents even began to have the resources to talk about what they had experienced. I wonder how much of our current MH issues can be traced back to that time and the trauma it caused.
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The usual weasel words of people who've been defeated in argument but won't admit it.
I think my argument stands having had the aftermath of the German occupation all around me for the whole of my childhood.
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If we are getting into ‘whomsuffered most’ my Jewish friends can come here and see the CI occupation and raise you the Holocaust.
The irony is that the freedoms for which people really did suffer for are being pushed to one side in favour of ‘one opinion fits all’.
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I think my argument stands having had the aftermath of the German occupation all around me for the whole of my childhood.
Yet others have equally valid views...having lived with my grandfather's experience of the Somme and his brother being blown up twenty feet from him - on one side of the family - and on the other, members of my family working underground for fourteen hours a day, six days a week - for less pay than a soldier - and bringing bits of their friends up to the surface when a seam collapsed.
Many points have validity, and not only folk in uniform were heroes...but they seem to be forgotten.
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Yet others have equally valid views...having lived with my grandfather's experience of the Somme and his brother being blown up twenty feet from him - on one side of the family - and on the other, members of my family working underground for fourteen hours a day, six days a week - for less pay than a soldier - and bringing bits of their friends up to the surface when a seam collapsed.
Many points have validity, and not only folk in uniform were heroes...but they seem to be forgotten.
My paternal grandfather was a soldier during WW1, he was on the front line and was gassed. His health never recovered from that experience, and she spent much of my father's childhood unwell. He died in 1943 at the young age of 48, his family were evacuated to the UK in 1939 at the outbreak of the war, so they never saw him again.
One of my father's younger brothers was forced to work as a Bevan Boy in the UK during WW2, not a pleasant experience for a kid of 17!
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My great uncles were all naval men but unusually none f my grandfathers went to war. One was severely eplileptic so he was an ARP warden in the Blitz. God knows what he saw. The other was foreman in an iron foundation and had a reserved occupation. He was responsible for ensuring that the blokes down in the pit didn’t die.
My nan nearly died in a home for pregnant women and while there she saw Magdalene Laundry-style treatment on unmarried mothers (she was married so was spared that).
Another great uncle lied about his age. He died at the Somme.
War is unsparing and indiscriminatory in its suffering and sacrifice.
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Hang on. Have you lookedat WW1? The Germans had universal male sufferage and a rudimentary welfarestate.
Are you seriously trying to claim that Germany was a democracy?
Those young menslaughtered for 'king and country' did not even have the right - unless they were over 25 - to vote. The pension scheme was far more rudimentary. It could be argued that the German state was more 'modern' in outlook than that of britain. In anycase, theconflict was not aclash of civiisations; ideologies or the rest - it was a clash of imperialism; led mainly by those who thought their status in life was better than those who were butchered for them, regardless of whichever flag theywere told to fight for.
That's utter rubbish. Neither state was an acceptable democracy in modern terms but at least Britain was run by an elected government, even if more than half of adults were disenfranchised. Kaiser Wilhelm (the hereditary emperor) ran Germany up to some point in the First World War and then his generals took over.
Britain joined the war, by the way, because Germany invaded Belgium and we had a treaty that obliged us to come to their aid.
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Of course niether nation was a democracy by our standards. However more male Germans per head of population were enfranchised than in 'britain'. In both cases, the lot of the disenfranchised was to bleed and die while the rich grew richer, arms dealers prospered, and the aims of Imperialism were pursued. That only one empire survived the hell - thankfully in a terminal condition itself - was fortuitous.
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The usual weasel words of people who've been defeated in argument but won't admit it.
I don't think it's an argument you win or lose. I disagree with LR but it is in the end just a matter of opinion.
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Of course niether nation was a democracy by our standards. However more male Germans per head of population were enfranchised than in 'britain'
True, but, how much democratic emphasis should we put on this when the Reichstag had very limited powers compared with the British Parliament, when the monarch could easily overrule it if he so choose, and when the German military was outside of any democratic control?
I don't think these 'democratic' systems in 1914 are really comparable at all.
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As this is our annual remembrance thread, I will post my annual link to the Best Bits threads where Gonnagle saved FastFlint's post
I think Nearly Sane means this comment:
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=9431.msg482089;topicseen#msg482089
which reads:
"My observations are these. The RBL is a Charity and the poppy appeal is part of its marketing for funds. It has been very successful and the effect of this is the almost complete poppy coverage that currently exists on TV, on football shirts and the like
The history of the RBL is of interest. It was (I read) formed rather quickly, when WW1 vets found the govt had no plans for injured soldiers and the possibility of revolution was quite high (there were millions of trained ex army around and jobs were rather thin on the ground)
I find the organised and "compulsory" remembrance somewhat overdone in its current form. A view my late WW2 vet father shared. He (and many soldiers quoted in many forums) think that the remembrance "industry" has been high-jacked by politicians and the establishment - so that we do forget and allow more young men and women to be killed by the whim of politicians. My WW1 vet grandad's (gassed but survived on the western front) view of the RBL are not printable. Just to say he thought it (this was a while back...) full of those who were never near the sharp end and liked the image.
I have found the odd visit to cemeteries in France and Belgium more powerful than the choreographed "poppy season" I don't need to be told when and how to pay my personal respects and feel that the current position is counter productive
I also think that the RBL is doing work that the Govt should have full responsibility for.
I also think that I would like to make those who bravely online call deserters cowards and the like face live firing and see if they feel so brave.
The best remembrance would be not to send off our young people to die for failed politics."
The bold highlights are mine, which I entirely agree with.
It is appalling that serviceman leaving the armed forces have no assistance from the government. Some leave the forces with no family or home to go to and land-up on the streets, very often with mental health issues. There is no form of provision to be found. Just despicable. This is why I donate to RBL.
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I wear a red poppy in remembrance of my uncle, my father's brother, his only sibling, who was reported missing - lost at sea. My grandmother and father waited and waited for news that he was safe, knowing really that none was going to arrive - his submarine had been torpedoed.
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Thanks for posting that link Sweet Pea. Gonnagles post was good!
I feel for your grandparents - just imagining what that must be like, never knowing what happened to your child. So many like cases in wars.
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Of course niether nation was a democracy by our standards. However more male Germans per head of population were enfranchised than in 'britain'
Yes but you understand that their votes had very little influence on what their government did. In Britain the voters elected the government.
In both cases, the lot of the disenfranchised was to bleed and die while the rich grew richer, arms dealers prospered, and the aims of Imperialism were pursued. That only one empire survived the hell - thankfully in a terminal condition itself - was fortuitous.
The only people who prospered from the First World War were the Americans and that was because they loaned us and the French money and equipment to prosecute the war. That's the main reason why they joined in - to protect their investment.
You really do need to do something about that enormous chip on your shoulder.