Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Sports, Hobbies & Interests => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on June 16, 2020, 08:25:01 PM
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Marcus Rashford now favourite for Sports Personality of the Year
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Marcus Rashford now favourite for Sports Personality of the Year
I think Marcus Rashford has been brilliant in this but I'm struggling to see how getting the government to make a u turn on free school meals in the summer represents a sporting achievement!
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I think Marcus Rashford has been brilliant in this but I'm struggling to see how getting the government to make a u turn on free school meals in the summer represents a sporting achievement!
Is there a rule that says it has to be a sporting achievement?
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Is there a rule that says it has to be a sporting achievement?
I'm pretty sure they play fast and loose with pretty much all of it - it's called sports 'personality', but they gave it Ryan Giggs once so....
O.
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Is there a rule that says it has to be a sporting achievement?
Yes - the award is given for 'Excellence in sporting achievement'.
Rashford's might be an excellent achievement, but it isn't an excellent sporting achievement.
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Yes - the award is given for 'Excellence in sporting achievement'.
Rashford's might be an excellent achievement, but it isn't an excellent sporting achievement.
That said - this year they might be struggling a bit for 'Excellence in sporting achievement' with so many major tournaments cancelled.
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Yes - the award is given for 'Excellence in sporting achievement'.
Rashford's might be an excellent achievement, but it isn't an excellent sporting achievement.
Though looking at the rules award goes to
'the sportsperson whose actions have most captured the UK public's imagination'
And the panel.has the right to
'amend elements of this or other awards such as the criteria or numbers shortlisted, should a consensus view be reached - provided such changes remain within the spirit of the award.'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/4Z5SvK744sgV419kxgJG929/terms-and-conditions
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Though looking at the rules award goes to
'the sportsperson whose actions have most captured the UK public's imagination'
And the panel.has the right to
'amend elements of this or other awards such as the criteria or numbers shortlisted, should a consensus view be reached - provided such changes remain within the spirit of the award.'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/4Z5SvK744sgV419kxgJG929/terms-and-conditions
The public vote on the shortlisted people, but those people are shortlisted on the basis of their sporting achievements - again from the rules (my emphasis):
'The Panel will select a shortlist of sportspeople for the main award on the basis of the following criteria:
- Reflects UK sporting achievements on the national and/or international stage
- Represents the breadth and depth of UK sports; and
- Takes into account 'impact' of the person's sporting achievement beyond the sport in question.'
Consideration is based on sporting achievements.
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The public vote on the shortlisted people, but those people are shortlisted on the basis of their sporting achievements - again from the rules (my emphasis):
'The Panel will select a shortlist of sportspeople for the main award on the basis of the following criteria:
- Reflects UK sporting achievements on the national and/or international stage
- Represents the breadth and depth of UK sports; and
- Takes into account 'impact' of the person's sporting achievement beyond the sport in question.'
Consideration is based on sporting achievements.
Those are the criteria but already covered that with
And the panel has the right to
'amend elements of this or other awards such as the criteria or numbers shortlisted, should a consensus view be reached - provided such changes remain within the spirit of the award.'
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Those are the criteria but already covered that with
And the panel has the right to
'amend elements of this or other awards such as the criteria or numbers shortlisted, should a consensus view be reached - provided such changes remain within the spirit of the award.'
To move beyond the award being given for sporting achievement would not be permitted as it would fall foul of 'changes remain within the spirit of the award' - the spirit being an award given for sporting achievement.
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To move beyond the award being given for sporting achievement would not be permitted as it would fall foul of 'changes remain within the spirit of the award' - the spirit being an award given for sporting achievement.
You are stating your subjective opinion about what the spirit is as if it is objective.
Given the statement that the award goes to 'the sportsperson whose actions have most captured the UK public's imagination',it would be perfectly arguable that it was within the spirit.
The precedent is against it given Jermaine Defoe not getting nominated at the time of his friendship and fund raising with Bradley Lowery but times have changed. First of all there is a lot less actual sport this year, and the force of the BLM campaign may also have an effect.
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You are stating your subjective opinion about what the spirit is as if it is objective.
Given the statement that the award goes to 'the sportsperson whose actions have most captured the UK public's imagination',it would be perfectly arguable that it was within the spirit.
The precedent is against it given Jermaine Defoe not getting nominated at the time of his friendship and fund raising with Bradley Lowery but times have changed. First of all there is a lot less actual sport this year, and the force of the BLM campaign may also have an effect.
I think the overarching 'spirit of the award' is more clearly demonstrated in the wiki page, than the T&Cs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Sports_Personality_of_the_Year_Award
Awarded for: Excellence in sporting achievement
I think changing the panel changing the criteria would apply more to who is eligible, not what it is awarded for.
I think the better precedent again than Jermaine Defoe would be Kenny Dalgish who as player manager of Liverpool attended over 90 funerals in the weeks following Hillsborough.
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I think the overarching 'spirit of the award' is more clearly demonstrated in the wiki page, than the T&Cs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Sports_Personality_of_the_Year_Award
Awarded for: Excellence in sporting achievement
I think changing the panel changing the criteria would apply more to who is eligible, not what it is awarded for.
I think the better precedent again than Jermaine Defoe would be Kenny Dalgish who as player manager of Liverpool attended over 90 funerals in the weeks following Hillsborough.
Why would I take wiki over the actual T&Cs?
And again I think it possible because of the zeitgeist.
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I think Marcus Rashford has been brilliant in this but I'm struggling to see how getting the government to make a u turn on free school meals in the summer represents a sporting achievement!
It doesn't have to. The award is "Sports Personality of the Year". You just have to be a personality in sport. I'd rather give it to Marcus Rashford for using his sports profile to help poor children than to Lewis Hamilton for equally Michael Schumacher's record after an abbreviated F1 season.
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Yes - the award is given for 'Excellence in sporting achievement'.
Is it. Can you provide a citation please?
I ask because I looked for the reason for the award and failed to come up with anything on the BBC web site and Wikipedia only has this:
Awarded to the sportsperson "whose actions have most captured the public's imagination"
If Wikipedia is right, then Marcus Rashford is definitely in with a legitimate shout.
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Is it. Can you provide a citation please?
I ask because I looked for the reason for the award and failed to come up with anything on the BBC web site and Wikipedia only has this:
If Wikipedia is right, then Marcus Rashford is definitely in with a legitimate shout.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Sports_Personality_of_the_Year_Award
On the right hand panel under the picture of the trophy:
Awarded for: Excellence in sporting achievement
The criteria for shortlisting only allow sporting achievement to be considered, as follows:
'The Panel will select a shortlist of sportspeople for the main award on the basis of the following criteria:
- Reflects UK sporting achievements on the national and/or international stage
- Represents the breadth and depth of UK sports; and
- Takes into account 'impact' of the person's sporting achievement beyond the sport in question.'
Once someone is shortlisted, based on their sporting achievements then the public can vote for their favourite for whatever reasons they choose - so they think they are cool or sexy, they like how they talk, they like their involvement in politics etc.
So if Marcus Rashford's sporting achievements in 2020 are sufficient for the panel to shortlist him, then the public might make him the winner based on his intervention on free school meals.
But I'd caution on two grounds.
First I think it unlikely, based on current form etc that he'd come anywhere close to being shortlisted for his sporting achievement - not least because he's been injured. And footballers are very rarely shortlisted and when they are it is usually because they are talismanic in a highly achieving team - that isn't going to be the case for Man U this season.
Secondly I doubt his (albeit impressive) intervention will really be remembered come Dec when the award happens.
So my prediction - Rashford will not be shortlisted and will therefore not win - don't bet on him.
That doesn't mean I'm not impressed by his intervention and the manner in which he has conducted himself over the past few days - I'm extremely impressed - but these aren't sporting achievements.
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It doesn't have to. The award is "Sports Personality of the Year". You just have to be a personality in sport. I'd rather give it to Marcus Rashford for using his sports profile to help poor children than to Lewis Hamilton for equally Michael Schumacher's record after an abbreviated F1 season.
Yes it does - you cannot be shortlisted except for sporting achievements - you can be as nice as you like, you can raise as much money for charity as you like, but the panel will only shortlist based on sporting achievements in the year in question for the main award.
And it only covers playing achievements - non-playing managers and coaches are not eligible for the main award.
And if Rashford is shortlisted for his sporting achievements you can vote for him for whatever reason you like in the public vote - but I doubt he will be shortlisted.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Sports_Personality_of_the_Year_Award
On the right hand panel under the picture of the trophy:
Awarded for: Excellence in sporting achievement
Wikipedia contradicts itself. How about that.
The criteria for shortlisting only allow sporting achievement to be considered, as follows:
'The Panel will select a shortlist of sportspeople for the main award on the basis of the following criteria:
- Reflects UK sporting achievements on the national and/or international stage
- Represents the breadth and depth of UK sports; and
- Takes into account 'impact' of the person's sporting achievement beyond the sport in question.'
You are quoting from the terms and conditions of the 2019 award. There's no reason why they need to be the same this year. In fact, if they happen at all, it's likely they will be different due to the fact that many sports aren't really happening.
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You are quoting from the terms and conditions of the 2019 award. There's no reason why they need to be the same this year. In fact, if they happen at all, it's likely they will be different due to the fact that many sports aren't really happening.
Sure its plausible that the 2020 rules will change to take account of the lock down postponement of many sports events, but I doubt very much that it will move beyond its basic remit which is to reward sporting achievements.
We will see what happens in due course, but if there is a footballer on the shortlist (there rarely is) then I'd imagine this guy is in poll position:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Henderson
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Sure its plausible that the 2020 rules will change to take account of the lock down postponement of many sports events, but I doubt very much that it will move beyond its basic remit which is to reward sporting achievements.
Its basic remit is to award the sportsperson "whose actions have most captured the public's imagination".
We will see what happens in due course, but if there is a footballer on the shortlist (there rarely is) then I'd imagine this guy is in poll position:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Henderson
Why? What has he achieved this year?
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Its basic remit is to award the sportsperson "whose actions have most captured the public's imagination".
From a shortlist based on their sporting achievements.
Why? What has he achieved this year?
Obviously a tad to early to say yet - but could well be captain of a team that:
1. First Liverpool team in 30 years to win the top flight.
2. Best ever top flight season performance in history, not just in England but all major European leagues (Spain, Italy, Germany, France too)
3. Most wins in a top flight season ever
4. Captain of a team that holds Premier league title, Champions League title and Wold club championship title at the same time.
Seems pretty impressive to me - and all are sporting achievements.
And in non sporting achievements - Henderson was the organising force for the initiative for the Premier League covid fund to raise money for the NHS to fight the disease.
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From a shortlist based on their sporting achievements.
You're still looking at the terms and conditions for the 2019 award. They don't have to be the same this year.
Obviously a tad to early to say yet - but could well be captain of a team that:
1. First Liverpool team in 30 years to win the top flight.
So Liverpool are special. It counts more when they win the league after a long lean patch than anybody else, does it?
Wes Morgan didn't seem to be in the frame in 2016 despite Leicester City winning the league for the first time ever.
2. Best ever top flight season performance in history, not just in England but all major European leagues (Spain, Italy, Germany, France too)
3. Most wins in a top flight season ever
SPOTY goes more or less by calendar year. Liverpool haven't really done anything much this calendar year (in common with all other football clubs).
Having said that, Liverpool will be odds on favourite to be team of the year (as long as they don't screw up their remaining matches). I'm just not seeing why the captain is therefore the best chance of a footballer winning it.
Seems pretty impressive to me - and all are sporting achievements.
But they aren't undefeated in the league.
And in non sporting achievements - Henderson was the organising force for the initiative for the Premier League covid fund to raise money for the NHS to fight the disease.
OK. Well there's something to set him apart.
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You're still looking at the terms and conditions for the 2019 award. They don't have to be the same this year.
True, but I doubt that the panel will change its remit beyond sporting achievements as it would fundamentally alter the nature of the main award.
So Liverpool are special. It counts more when they win the league after a long lean patch than anybody else, does it?
Wes Morgan didn't seem to be in the frame in 2016 despite Leicester City winning the league for the first time ever.
Fair point, but these sorts of things come into it, call it sentiment if you like - so I doubt Gascoine would have won had it not been for England making the semi final of the world cup for the first time in 24 years in 1990. There are a raft of winners where the key isn't just the achievement (which happens ever year or every 4 years etc), but the 'first time in XXX years' element.
SPOTY goes more or less by calendar year. Liverpool haven't really done anything much this calendar year (in common with all other football clubs).
Which is one of the reasons why footballers tend to win less than you might expect (there are others). But it would be a bit unfair to strike out the world club championship, which although was actually won in Dec 2019 took place after the 2019 SPOTY award ceremony.
So presuming Liverpool win the PL - there would be be both of those wins in the period since the previous SPOTY - plus of course being holdings of the Champions league at the same time.
Having said that, Liverpool will be odds on favourite to be team of the year (as long as they don't screw up their remaining matches). I'm just not seeing why the captain is therefore the best chance of a footballer winning it.
Winning team of the year doesn't preclude an individual from that team winning the individual trophy - indeed it happened last year with the cricket team and Ben Stokes. Now you might argue that Jordan Henderson isn't the stand out player of the current Liverpool team - but in fact it is difficult to pick a stand out player and that is perhaps testament to their cohesion as a team, so the captain of that team perhaps is the player who deserves greatest recognition. And those who've watched them through this season often note that they are a markedly less good team when Henderson isn't available.
But they aren't undefeated in the league.
So what - potentially they may amass more points, more wins and a greater full season record than any other top flight team, not just in the English top flight but also Germany, Spain, Italy and France. That would be a remarkable achievement.
And by the way Liverpool are unbeaten in the league with Henderson in the team - he was injured for the defeat by Watford. His record in the team in the league this season (to date) is:
Played 26
Won 25
Draw 1
Loss 0
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Wes Morgan didn't seem to be in the frame in 2016 despite Leicester City winning the league for the first time ever.
For the record - in 2016 Leicester City won the team award and Jamie Vardy was shortlisted for the main award.
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True, but I doubt that the panel will change its remit beyond sporting achievements as it would fundamentally alter the nature of the main award.
No it wouldn't. Or, if it does for 2020, that's not necessarily a bad thing.
And by the way Liverpool are unbeaten in the league with Henderson in the team
Arsenal are unbeaten in all competitions in all history with me in the team. I should get an award.
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For the record - in 2016 Leicester City won the team award and Jamie Vardy was shortlisted for the main award.
Jamie Vardy wasn't the captain.
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The reason that Rashford won't be nominated, though as has been established it would be perfectly possible, is that it would just annoy the UK govt while the review of what happens to the BBC and its funding is on the cards.
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The reason that Rashford won't be nominated, though as has been established it would be perfectly possible, is that it would just annoy the UK govt while the review of what happens to the BBC and its funding is on the cards.
I think that ship has already sailed.
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I think that ship has already sailed.
But many will be clinging on to the anchor
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Special award for Rashford - which surely makes Lewis Hamilton a shoo-in
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54968207
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Special award for Rashford - which surely makes Lewis Hamilton a shoo-in
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54968207
Yes, as expected Rashford won't be on the shortlist for the main award.
That was never going to happen as the BBC (particularly under their new DG) was never going to make such an overtly political move. It is also the right decision as the main award is for sporting achievement, and while Rashford's achievements on free school meals have been impressive, they are not sporting achievements. His achievements on the pitch in 2020 have not been sufficient for him to get anywhere close to the shortlist.
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Special award for Rashford - which surely makes Lewis Hamilton a shoo-in
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54968207
Agree on Hamilton.
I'm no great fan of formula 1, but surely he'd be as deserving a winner as you can get, having this year become all-time top of the list for race wins and having equalled Schumacher's record of title wins. And, worth noting, having done so in far fewer races.
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Agree on Hamilton.
I'm no great fan of formula 1, but surely he'd be as deserving a winner as you can get, having this year become all-time top of the list for race wins and having equalled Schumacher's record of title wins. And, worth noting, having done so in far fewer races.
Worth noting too that Hamilton is also heavily involved in an ongoing political campaign - Black Lives Matter, and has been instrumental in campaigning against racism in his sport and more generally.
And while that is an incredibly worthy endeavour (just as Rashford's is) if he is shortlisted for the SPOTY it will be on the basis of his sporting achievements.
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So as I predicted way back in the summer.
Rashford not on the shortlist for the main award - was never going to happen as his achievements aren't sporting (good to see that he gets a special award for his non-sporting achievements through).
And
Jordan Henderson is on the shortlist - again as I predicted.
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So as I predicted way back in the summer.
Rashford not on the shortlist for the main award - was never going to happen as his achievements aren't sporting (good to see that he gets a special award for his non-sporting achievements through).
And
Jordan Henderson is on the shortlist - again as I predicted.
While I think you are and will be right, it's worth noting that the shortlist is not complete.
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While I think you are and will be right, it's worth noting that the shortlist is not complete.
I never said it was, but Henderson is on it and Rashford isn't - that we already know.
Interesting that Broad is on the list rather than Anderson. Also won't be a balanced list between male and female, with just one woman and five out of six named. And we haven't had Tyson Fury on the list yet - surely he will be number 6, which would make it 5-1 male-female.
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I never said it was, but Henderson is on it and Rashford isn't - that we already know.
Interesting that Broad is on the list rather than Anderson. Also won't be a balanced list between male and female, with just one woman and five out of six named. And we haven't had Tyson Fury on the list yet - surely he will be number 6, which would make it 5-1 male-female.
So now confirmed - Tyson Fury is number 6.
I'm no great fan of Formula 1 but Hamilton surely has to win it - he is now the most successful person in his sport ever. Difficult to see how you can top that.
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So now confirmed - Tyson Fury is number 6.
I'm no great fan of Formula 1 but Hamilton surely has to win it - he is now the most successful person in his sport ever. Difficult to see how you can top that.
Currently 12/5 on. 5/1 bar
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The wild card in the list who just might do something to upset Hamilton's shoo-in is O'Sullivan who could also be argued to be the most successful, and definitely the most talented in his sport ever. I don't think he will be the upset but I think the odds may get closer.
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The wild card in the list who just might do something to upset Hamilton's shoo-in is O'Sullivan who could also be argued to be the most successful, and definitely the most talented in his sport ever. I don't think he will be the upset but I think the odds may get closer.
True - although I think that Tyson Fury has the best chance of pipping Hamilton at the post. I hate boxing but it has a huge a loyal following who might just tip the balance.
But realistically there are only 3 vaguely plausible winners - Henderson, Doyle and Broad wont get a look in. And without wishing to be ungracious, I suspect they'll be a lot of people who will never have heard of Doyle.
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Fury has been up for it before. And may well be up for it again. This may be O'Sullivan's only chance. It may well drive a push from general sports fans.
Agree that the other three are toast.
Did they reduce what was the top.ten to six this year, or had that happened earlier?
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Fury has been up for it before. And may well be up for it again. This may be O'Sullivan's only chance. It may well drive a push from general sports fans.
Perhaps but I don't think snooker has the profile and pulling power that it once did.
Agree that the other three are toast.
Yup.
Did they reduce what was the top.ten to six this year, or had that happened earlier?
I think that they have changed the number on the shortlist from time to time, depending on the numbers of credible candidates. I guess with the relative lack of sport this year a shorter list was chosen. In a normal year we would presumably have had a selection of Olympics winners also to choose from, but not this year. Hard to see who else could have been credible and I think there are some on the list who wouldn't have come close in a more normal year.
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I think that they have changed the number on the shortlist from time to time, depending on the numbers of credible candidates. I guess with the relative lack of sport this year a shorter list was chosen. In a normal year we would presumably have had a selection of Olympics winners also to choose from, but not this year. Hard to see who else could have been credible and I think there are some on the list who wouldn't have come close in a more normal year.
I've just looked at the last few years.
The last couple have had 6 nominees, but in 2016 there were 16 and there have been 10, 12 nominees in some years over the last decade. So the number of nominees expands or contracts depending on the number of credible candidates it would appear.
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Tyson Fury asks to be removed from list
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/sports-personality/55162164
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Tyson Fury asks to be removed from list
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/sports-personality/55162164
What an idiot
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What an idiot
Now he's taking legal action against the BBC.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/sports-personality/55302097
As I said - what a total idiot.
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Now he's taking legal action against the BBC.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/sports-personality/55302097
As I said - what a total idiot.
Yes, and no - he's building a brand, and as someone that knows he's not going to win he's doing something to change the conversation to being about him and trying to build up his image of himself as somehow an 'outsider'. It's a reasonably good marketing strategy that can't overcome the fundamental problem that he's an obnoxious dick-bag in the first place.
O.
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Yes, and no - he's building a brand, and as someone that knows he's not going to win he's doing something to change the conversation to being about him and trying to build up his image of himself as somehow an 'outsider'. It's a reasonably good marketing strategy that can't overcome the fundamental problem that he's an obnoxious dick-bag in the first place.
O.
This is the guy who railed against the BBC last year for not shortlisting him. Now he is complaining that they have shortlisted him. I see no strategy, merely a hypocrite who doesn't like losing. He is following the Trump playbook.
And on brands - I don't think he needs to build a brand - he already has one as you have eloquently described in the last few words of your post ;)
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Yes, and no - he's building a brand, and as someone that knows he's not going to win he's doing something to change the conversation to being about him and trying to build up his image of himself as somehow an 'outsider'. It's a reasonably good marketing strategy that can't overcome the fundamental problem that he's an obnoxious dick-bag in the first place.
O.
And another thing - I loath people who self-define themselves as 'the people's' this that or the other. Makes no difference if it is 'the people's champion' or 'the people's princess' etc etc. The cannot self define yourself as such, the only, err, people who could do that are, well the people and they are not a homogeneous block who all think the same. Anyone describing themselves as such, in my view, simply has an over inflated view of their own importance.
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And another thing - I loath people who self-define themselves as 'the people's' this that or the other. Makes no difference if it is 'the people's champion' or 'the people's princess' etc etc. The cannot self define yourself as such, the only, err, people who could do that are, well the people and they are not a homogeneous block who all think the same. Anyone describing themselves as such, in my view, simply has an over inflated view of their own importance.
Part of the problem is that SPOTY 2020 will almost certainly show that Lewis Hamilton is the "People's Champion".
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Part of the problem is that SPOTY 2020 will almost certainly show that Lewis Hamilton is the "People's Champion".
I think that's Fury's issue - that he won't win and he'd rather not be included than lose, which is pretty pathetic particularly as he whinged some much last year when he wasn't (quite rightly) shortlisted.
Hamilton will likely win the award following the public vote - that won't make him a 'people's champion' merely an award winner from a public vote involving a tiny proportion of the UK population.
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Hamilton wins, as expected and predicted.
Henderson second which I'm pleased about.