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Theism and Atheism / Re: One God
« Last post by Outrider on June 13, 2025, 08:48:18 AM »
No because anything that does not depend on anything else for its existence is a necessary entity

But you're giving 'god' a pass and just accepting that it's non-contingent, but demanding that the cosmos must be because... What?

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No an infinite regress fails to answer the demand of contingency I.e. A cause.

No, it doesn't answer the begged question of 'is there an uncaused cause'. You have contingency, so things need a cause. If you want to stop that chain, having established it, you need to justify why you need an uncaused cause, or infinite regress is the logical conclusion of what you've already established.

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Since I trust you not to then argue that corporeal things are necessarily contingent, I'm happy to strike non corporeal.

It appears that corporeal things are contingent - would you consider energy to be 'corporeal', because that may be the exception.

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Brute fact just seems to be claiming necessity without any explanatory or possibility of explanation.

And 'God did it' doesn't? How would you go about justifying the need to explain 'why' physics works?

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An infinite regress fails to answer the ACTUAL demands of Contingency but moreover there are reasons to say it could be contingent but also reasons to argue that an infinite regress is a necessary entity.

Contingency doesn't have demands, it's a conclusion from the evidence available. You don't like the implication, because it bypasses your attempt to establish a god; you need to establish a reason that contingency has to stop at some point before you can use that to justify what that uncaused cause is, and I don't see that you've done that, let alone explain why it has to be a god and not just the cosmos if you eventually do.

O.
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Sports, Hobbies & Interests / Re: A new word game....
« Last post by Steve H on June 13, 2025, 07:22:22 AM »
Connections
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Sports, Hobbies & Interests / Re: Wordle
« Last post by Steve H on June 13, 2025, 03:45:14 AM »
Wordle 1,455 4/6

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General Discussion / Re: The Weather
« Last post by Roses on June 12, 2025, 06:39:07 PM »
A miserable day, it is wet and windy.
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Theism and Atheism / Re: One God
« Last post by Free Willy on June 12, 2025, 05:09:07 PM »
But that ultimate cause that you cite IS a non-contingent contingency.
No because anything that does not depend on anything else for its existence is a necessary entity
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The argument from contingency, logically, DEMANDS an infinite regress.
No an infinite regress fails to answer the demand of contingency I.e. A cause.
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Why non-corporeal? Why does that progress from contingency? I don't see, apart from that, why 'the Cosmos' doesn't equally fit the bill, and doesn't add the necessity of explaining how a complex intelligence 'just exists' and is non-corporeal but somehow has corporeal influence. Even if we accept the idea that contingency logically leads inevitably to necessary, that's still a huge gap away from, therefore that necessity is intelligent, deliberate and influential in an ongoing manner.
Since I trust you not to then argue that corporeal things are necessarily contingent, I'm happy to strike non corporeal. Renege on that and I shall revisit it.
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No, [we don't, we're presuming (in some instances deducing) some of the attributes, but you're assigning a whole host more - why is the necessary intelligent? Why is it deliberately creative? Why does it care?

It possibly did, it's one explanation for what dark matter and dark energy might be.

Again, possibly, but I'm not aware of any of those ways that would have been as relevant.

You are begging the question - before I need to explain a 'why' you need to explain in what fashion 'why' is meaningful. Why presumes a reason, you haven't explained that there is a 'why' that needs exploring. It merely is, it is an inevitable consequence of the prior events - you know, contingency.

Covered, as the hip-folks are saying these days.

Just behind God, at that point where you're suggesting that there isn't something underlying it. The difference is that I'm suggesting a concept - universal physical laws - are a brute fact, you're proposing a specific entity.

It doesn't inevitably lead to a cyclic nature - it might, it might not - but importantly whether we find meaning in it or not is not what defines whether it exists or not. The heat death means nothing changes - that existence continues, and the universe is infinite.

But we don't believe that the universe is temporally infinite backwards - we have a clear indication of a start point. It extends infinitely into the future, perhaps. It's the broader cosmos that I'm suggesting might be infinite, with any number of finite or infinite universes bubbling through it.

The Cosmos, you mean? The totality of all the potential energy of reality, constantly roiling and boiling and occasionally dribbling out the argument from contingency through an elaborate and entirely accidental sequence of events that include a Big Bang, the evolution of intelligent life, the abrogation of that intelligence in the pursuit of superstition and internet chat forums.

O.
Brute fact just seems to be claiming necessity without any explanatory or possibility of explanation.

The Universe just is and there's an end to it - Bertrand Russell.

Is it or is it a cop out?

An infinite regress fails to answer the ACTUAL demands of Contingency but moreover there are reasons to say it could be contingent but also reasons to argue that an infinite regress is a necessary entity.

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Theism and Atheism / Re: One God
« Last post by Free Willy on June 12, 2025, 03:12:37 PM »
Nope - I'm arguing that your assigning elements as 'contingent' or 'necessary' is naive and arbitrary - and as I have pointed out until I am blue in the face it is quite possible for elements to be both necessary and contingent and also reciprocally or mutually contingent - in other words a is contingent on b, but equally b is contingent on a. You seem incapable of considering this rather simple (and easy to evidence) concept.

In your anthropocentric world that craves a god there is a bizarre linearity where everything is contingent on something else and then comes the special pleading. That notion is woefully simplistic and naive but also logically inconsistent - 2+2=5 - err that doesn't work so lets posit god to make the equation work - hence 2+2(-1)=4.
Anyone?
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Theism and Atheism / Re: One God
« Last post by ProfessorDavey on June 12, 2025, 02:59:56 PM »
You seem to be promoting Non contingent contingency which is the Fred and Ginger of logical fallacies, worse than square circles, it's like non square squares or non toxic cyanide.
Nope - I'm arguing that your assigning elements as 'contingent' or 'necessary' is naive and arbitrary - and as I have pointed out until I am blue in the face it is quite possible for elements to be both necessary and contingent and also reciprocally or mutually contingent - in other words a is contingent on b, but equally b is contingent on a. You seem incapable of considering this rather simple (and easy to evidence) concept.

In your anthropocentric world that craves a god there is a bizarre linearity where everything is contingent on something else and then comes the special pleading. That notion is woefully simplistic and naive but also logically inconsistent - 2+2=5 - err that doesn't work so lets posit god to make the equation work - hence 2+2(-1)=4.
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Theism and Atheism / Re: One God
« Last post by Free Willy on June 12, 2025, 02:44:03 PM »
But this seems to me to be an argument based on an illogicality (infinite regress) which you then add another illogicality to try to get over.

So it seem to be the equivalent of arguing that 2+2=5, and then when realising that this makes no sense you add a fudge factor (god of or the necessary being) to try to get over the illogicality - so 2+2(-1)=4. But of course it still makes no sense.

You continually dismiss the notion that all things may be contingent - e.g. my completely plausible network. But also you are so tied to x causes y causes z that you cannot see that this has no real meaning unless time is constant and unilinear. But also the very notion of what is contingent on what is highly subjective. So am I contingent on my parents, or are my parents and I contingent on the molecules/atoms of which we are comprised. But that also makes no sense as those atoms aren't constant and shuttle between molecules in our bodies and elsewhere including in other people's bodies.

So only if you have a totally narrow (and usually completely anthropocentric) view of the cosmos does the very concept of contingency and necessity make any sense, but in reality it is a logical dead end (requiring the -1 to make 2+2(-1)=4) so rather than flog a very, very dead horse we need to look elsewhere to explanations that don't beg the question ("we've already decided god exists and are trying to 'prove' it") and aren't totally wedded to seeing the universe in terms of our own experiences and prejudices (e.g. on time).
You seem to be promoting Non contingent contingency which is the Fred and Ginger of logical fallacies, worse than square circles, it's like non square squares or non toxic cyanide.
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Sports, Hobbies & Interests / Re: A new word game....
« Last post by Aruntraveller on June 12, 2025, 12:29:32 PM »
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Theism and Atheism / Re: One God
« Last post by Outrider on June 12, 2025, 11:18:30 AM »
No it isn’t, we derive that from the definition of contingency. That’s why it’s called the argument from contingency. It ‘s not arbitrary, it is reached by tracing back the hierarchies of dependence. Some say the universe is the uncaused cause and some argue that it must be something else, because they argue, the universe is contingent. The necessary entity is that which ultimately accounts for all the contingency in the universe and removes the absurdity of non contingent contingency.

That it eliminates an infinite chain is, it seems to me, a by product and not the main event as you suggest. Difficult to see how this entity isn’t continuous with the contingent universe we know. It seems you want the absurdity of everything being contingent which leaves the whole contingent ensemble wanting a cause. With just a wee tweek though, you could have a necessary being.

But that ultimate cause that you cite IS a non-contingent contingency. The argument from contingency, logically, DEMANDS an infinite regress.

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Why call the necessary being God? Because the attributes of this entity are not found in contingent beings e.g ultimacy, fundementalcy total independence, permanence, not subject to greater laws, singular, componentless, non corporeal. It wills because nothing wills for it. In short, not the stuff of atheism

Why non-corporeal? Why does that progress from contingency? I don't see, apart from that, why 'the Cosmos' doesn't equally fit the bill, and doesn't add the necessity of explaining how a complex intelligence 'just exists' and is non-corporeal but somehow has corporeal influence. Even if we accept the idea that contingency logically leads inevitably to necessary, that's still a huge gap away from, therefore that necessity is intelligent, deliberate and influential in an ongoing manner.

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Where do we draw the line between contingent and necessary? we know the attributes of both contingent beings and necessary beings.

No, we don't, we're presuming (in some instances deducing) some of the attributes, but you're assigning a whole host more - why is the necessary intelligent? Why is it deliberately creative? Why does it care?

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Can’t see how that cannot have happened at a Big Bang.

It possibly did, it's one explanation for what dark matter and dark energy might be.

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Could it have worked in another way?

Again, possibly, but I'm not aware of any of those ways that would have been as relevant.

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If so we are left wondering what is the reason it’s this way, and not another or the inevitable questions , why change?

You are begging the question - before I need to explain a 'why' you need to explain in what fashion 'why' is meaningful. Why presumes a reason, you haven't explained that there is a 'why' that needs exploring. It merely is, it is an inevitable consequence of the prior events - you know, contingency.

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And why a universe rather than nothing?

Covered, as the hip-folks are saying these days.

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Where do you draw the line between contingent fact and brute fact?

Just behind God, at that point where you're suggesting that there isn't something underlying it. The difference is that I'm suggesting a concept - universal physical laws - are a brute fact, you're proposing a specific entity.

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I never said it did cease to exist but after heat death nothing happens as you say, moreover,it points back to a beginning.

It doesn't inevitably lead to a cyclic nature - it might, it might not - but importantly whether we find meaning in it or not is not what defines whether it exists or not. The heat death means nothing changes - that existence continues, and the universe is infinite.

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If the universe were temporally infinite then, heat death would have occurred an infinitely long time ago.

But we don't believe that the universe is temporally infinite backwards - we have a clear indication of a start point. It extends infinitely into the future, perhaps. It's the broader cosmos that I'm suggesting might be infinite, with any number of finite or infinite universes bubbling through it.

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Some mechanism would need to be driving it, an input would be needed from something that was infinitely powerful and not itself subject to entropy.

The Cosmos, you mean? The totality of all the potential energy of reality, constantly roiling and boiling and occasionally dribbling out the argument from contingency through an elaborate and entirely accidental sequence of events that include a Big Bang, the evolution of intelligent life, the abrogation of that intelligence in the pursuit of superstition and internet chat forums.

O.
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