Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 4508440 times)

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8442
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #52075 on: Today at 11:39:59 AM »
I suppose the basic premise is nothing comes from nothing so a something must exist and if it exists nothing either brought it into being or prevented itso it must always exist on it's own account.

Again, you are describing a brute fact, not telling us how anything can be its own reason for existing, or why it had to be the way it is. It could also apply simply to the whole space-time, as I said before. You then started putting lots of other, totally unargued, conditions onto it.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 65773
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #52076 on: Today at 11:48:58 AM »
Oh, how convenient
Maybe you should think about quite how stupid and unpleasant that comment is.

You owe Gordon an apology

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33760
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #52077 on: Today at 11:55:12 AM »
Again, you are describing a brute fact, not telling us how anything can be its own reason for existing, or why it had to be the way it is. It could also apply simply to the whole space-time, as I said before. You then started putting lots of other, totally unargued, conditions onto it.
Bollocks. The necessary entity has a sufficient explanation which I've given. Your appeal is an insistence on everything having an external cause. So once again there are reasons why the necessary entity is a thing but no Cause or external reasons for it's existence.

It's not my place to explain why something is a brute fact and not a necessary entity it's yours since that's your contention.



Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33760
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #52078 on: Today at 11:56:07 AM »
Maybe you should think about quite how stupid and unpleasant that comment is.

You owe Gordon an apology
Gordon you have my fullest apology.q

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33760
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #52079 on: Today at 12:11:17 PM »
Not really, Vlad: it wasn't an easy or a cheap (for me) transition away from the old service that is being withdrawn.

It is unfortunate that we lost some data due to a technical error regarding security certificates (I take it you have read the thread on this).

https://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=22578.msg904364#new
No I hadn't at the time I  posted. I had know idea that the forum wasn't having serious problems. I was unaware of the migration

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8442
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #52080 on: Today at 12:30:49 PM »
Bollocks. The necessary entity has a sufficient explanation which I've given.

No, you did not. You don't seem to understand the difference between justifying and explaining the logic of a 'necessary entity' and just "well it must be necessary 'cos I can't think of anything else, innit".

Your appeal is an insistence on everything having an external cause.

I didn't insist on that at all, I just asked you to explain the logic of something being its own reason for existing, rather than existing for no reason. Something you've never once addressed. You've also never explained why it had to exist, rather than just happened to exist. It's like you can't see the problems.

So once again there are reasons why the necessary entity is a thing but no Cause or external reasons for it's existence.

What reasons? Why did it have to exist? Why couldn't it have been something different?

It's not my place to explain why something is a brute fact and not a necessary entity it's yours since that's your contention.

That wasn't my contention. My contention was that what you described was no different from a description of a brute fact.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33760
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #52081 on: Today at 01:52:59 PM »
No, you did not. You don't seem to understand the difference between justifying and explaining the logic of a 'necessary entity' and just "well it must be necessary 'cos I can't think of anything else, innit".

I didn't insist on that at all, I just asked you to explain the logic of something being its own reason for existing, rather than existing for no reason. Something you've never once addressed. You've also never explained why it had to exist, rather than just happened to exist. It's like you can't see the problems.

What reasons? Why did it have to exist? Why couldn't it have been something different?

That wasn't my contention. My contention was that what you described was no different from a description of a brute fact.
Yes and it's your understanding of what a brute fact is.

Secondly then I have to ask myself whether you cannot handle brute fact or necessity. or both
The only 'go on ' I have is Russell's  " The universe just is and there's an end to it. Where as I am saying the necessary entity exist because contingency has to be accounted for and given that there is nothing that causes it to be or not to be. I think the difference between that in Russell should be obvious.

Thirdly, Are you actually against brute fact or necessary entities.

Not many people on this forum are since they either think the universe could be uncaused, or necessary or brute fact or all three. I also seem to recall you saying space time was uncaused.

I'm entitled to ask you then "What is your position in these matters now?" because you appear to be gaslighting IMHO.

Your question why does it have to exist seems to presume everything must have an external reason and yet you said space time needn't have a cause as I recall

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18575
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #52082 on: Today at 02:39:35 PM »
Vlad

Apology accepted.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33760
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #52083 on: Today at 02:45:13 PM »
Vlad

Apology accepted.
Humble thanks

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8442
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #52084 on: Today at 03:24:00 PM »
Yes and it's your understanding of what a brute fact is.

All you've actually said is that something exists that depends on nothing else. That's not explaining the logic of a necessary entity which would have to be its own reason, couldn't have failed to exits and couldn't have been different.

Without those explanations, we just have something that 'just is'.

Where as I am saying the necessary entity exist because contingency has to be accounted for and given that there is nothing that causes it to be or not to be. I think the difference between that in Russell should be obvious.

This is just more of your reasoning-free "I can't think of anything else, so it must be necessary, innit".

Thirdly, Are you actually against brute fact or necessary entities.

As I'm sure I've told you many times before, I have no idea at all why stuff exists. It's you who are trying, and failing, to make the case for a 'necessary entity'.

I also seem to recall you saying space time was uncaused.

Indeed. There is no obvious reason why it needs a cause.

Your question why does it have to exist seems to presume everything must have an external reason and yet you said space time needn't have a cause as I recall

I really don't see why you're so confused. I said nothing about external causes, but a 'necessary entity' is supposed to be its own reason for existing and I'm trying to get you to explain how that works logically and how we can tell the difference between that and having no reason for its existence. Something you clearly can't do.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Steve H

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10993
  • God? She's black.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #52085 on: Today at 03:33:02 PM »
I suppose the basic premise is nothing comes from nothing so a something must exist and if it exists nothing either brought it into being or prevented itso it must always exist on it's own account.
But. as I've pointed out before, that thing need be no more than a fundamental scientific law. At any rate, it's a long way short of the loving  father God of the Bible..

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33760
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #52086 on: Today at 04:13:25 PM »
But. as I've pointed out before, that thing need be no more than a fundamental scientific law. At any rate, it's a long way short of the loving  father God of the Bible..
Is your "fundamental scientific law" though, an abstract necessity or one that can actually bring things into existence?

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33760
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #52087 on: Today at 05:30:19 PM »
All you've actually said is that something exists that depends on nothing else. That's not explaining the logic of a necessary entity which would have to be its own reason, couldn't have failed to exits and couldn't have been different.

Without those explanations, we just have something that 'just is'.

This is just more of your reasoning-free "I can't think of anything else, so it must be necessary, innit".

As I'm sure I've told you many times before, I have no idea at all why stuff exists. It's you who are trying, and failing, to make the case for a 'necessary entity'.

Indeed. There is no obvious reason why it needs a cause. SO YOU

I really don't see why you're so confused. I said nothing about external causes, but a 'necessary entity' is supposed to be its own reason for existing and I'm trying to get you to explain how that works logically and how we can tell the difference between that and having no reason for its existence. Something you clearly can't do.
You seem to be both arguing for and against necessity in the same post.

If the Universe or space time is the necessary entity/ brute fact, how do you account for contingent things? Or contingency?

Gonnagle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11276
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #52088 on: Today at 05:47:47 PM »
Dear Thread,

Aaahhh ❤️ Vlad and Gordon are now beshtest Buddies, sweet :P

Gonnagle.
I will now read posts very carefully and then using the two God given brains cells that I have reply as if I am talking to a two year old, yes that should suffice as a gentle reminder✝️✝️✝️❤️

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8442
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #52089 on: Today at 05:52:00 PM »
You seem to be both arguing for and against necessity in the same post.

Christ on a bike! How many more times? I'm not arguing for anything. I'm not the one making claims here, that would be you. I'm just pointing out that you're about 30,000 light-years away from making a case for a necessary entity.

If the Universe or space time is the necessary entity/ brute fact, how do you account for contingent things? Or contingency?

Everything would be contingent on the universe/space-time. Alternatively, since we have the B-theory of time, you could say that nothing's contingent as the universe, everything in it, and all of its history, just is.

To be clear: I'm not arguing that this is the case, it's just logically possible.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4481
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #52090 on: Today at 08:24:49 PM »
Not really, Vlad: it wasn't an easy or a cheap (for me) transition away from the old service that is being withdrawn.

It is unfortunate that we lost some data due to a technical error regarding security certificates (I take it you have read the thread on this).

https://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=22578.msg904364#new
Many thanks, Gordon, for your diligence, which I have only just taken note of today.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David