Author Topic: Arming the Ukrainians  (Read 212374 times)

Aruntraveller

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2350 on: August 16, 2025, 10:14:20 AM »
..
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2351 on: August 16, 2025, 10:21:44 AM »
So far I think Putin will be please


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c2kzn1nw1d4t

All a show for the Orange Turd's ego. But he's such a moron he doesn't know he's been played: a wanted war criminal received with honour on US soil.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2025, 10:42:01 AM by ad_orientem »
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2352 on: August 16, 2025, 11:51:14 AM »
There has been a lot of hype about a ceasefire. The thing is that Trump wants a ceasefire in order to stop the killing, which is a good reason. But Ukraine wants it so that they can rearm. Why would Russia agree to that?
So apparently Trump has now said no ceasefire until a peace plan is agreed.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2353 on: August 16, 2025, 12:33:23 PM »
There has been a lot of hype about a ceasefire. The thing is that Trump wants a ceasefire in order to stop the killing, which is a good reason. But Ukraine wants it so that they can rearm. Why would Russia agree to that?
So apparently Trump has now said no ceasefire until a peace plan is agreed.

Only in the bizarro world. Trump wants "peace" at any cost because he desperately wants a Nobel Peace Prize. Russia would happily accept a "peace" along the current line of engagement so that it can regain its strength and attack again later. Ukraine is the only one that genuinely wants peace, a just peace that actually means something.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2025, 12:35:38 PM by ad_orientem »
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2354 on: August 16, 2025, 02:09:02 PM »
There has been a lot of hype about a ceasefire. The thing is that Trump wants a ceasefire in order to stop the killing, which is a good reason. But Ukraine wants it so that they can rearm. Why would Russia agree to that?
So apparently Trump has now said no ceasefire until a peace plan is agreed.

Apologist for a mass murderer.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2355 on: August 17, 2025, 09:41:57 AM »
Only in the bizarro world. Trump wants "peace" at any cost because he desperately wants a Nobel Peace Prize. Russia would happily accept a "peace" along the current line of engagement so that it can regain its strength and attack again later. Ukraine is the only one that genuinely wants peace, a just peace that actually means something.
How do you know the Russians will attack again later, if all their demands are met, ie Ukraine retreats to borders of 4 oblasts, demilitarizes, holds elections, becomes neutral?

Gordon

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2356 on: August 17, 2025, 10:00:35 AM »
How do you know the Russians will attack again later, if all their demands are met, ie Ukraine retreats to borders of 4 oblasts, demilitarizes, holds elections, becomes neutral?


Dear Mr Chamberlain

Why the fuck should a) Ukraine, or anyone else, trust a megalomaniac dictator whose agenda is clear, and b) why should Ukraine comply with his demands?

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2357 on: August 17, 2025, 10:27:13 AM »
How do you know the Russians will attack again later, if all their demands are met, ie Ukraine retreats to borders of 4 oblasts, demilitarizes, holds elections, becomes neutral?

Because russia always breaks its agreements. It has form. They're not worth the paper they're written on.
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2358 on: August 17, 2025, 11:47:33 AM »
Because russia always breaks its agreements. It has form. They're not worth the paper they're written on.
They retreated from Kiev after an agreement in principle was reached in 2022. What happened then?

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2359 on: August 17, 2025, 12:09:24 PM »
They retreated from Kiev after an agreement in principle was reached in 2022. What happened then?

Retreated from Kyiv? LOL! Pure copium. They got wasted.
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Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2360 on: August 17, 2025, 03:09:16 PM »
.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2361 on: August 18, 2025, 12:59:39 PM »
Testing

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2362 on: August 18, 2025, 01:02:31 PM »
I can't post my reply to Ad O

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2363 on: August 18, 2025, 01:23:03 PM »
I can't post my reply to Ad O
As per various posts in the Technical thread, there is a known issue with some characters , particularly when cutting and casting from other sites. This should be addressed when we upgrade the version but there are problems with the process of upgrading to it that are being worked through. If you are not quoting large chunks of text, you can usually get round it by just typing it rather than cutting and pasting. Also sometimes when typing specific characters like pound sign there seem to be issues.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2025, 01:50:16 PM by Nearly Sane »

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2364 on: August 18, 2025, 01:47:03 PM »
Thanks for all your hard work behind the scenes, N S and others.
Retreated from Kyiv? LOL! Pure copium. They got wasted.
In reply to ad I just wanted to mention that the Russians withdrew from towns around Kyiv as soon as the Istanbul Communique was produced on 29 March 2022.That appears to have been the main reason, although yes, they were taking losses

(Edit: It must have been communique with an accent on the e that caused the  problem)!
« Last Edit: August 19, 2025, 02:54:21 AM by Spud »

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2365 on: August 19, 2025, 06:01:13 PM »
How do you know the Russians will attack again later, if all their demands are met, ie Ukraine retreats to borders of 4 oblasts, demilitarizes, holds elections, becomes neutral?

Notwithstanding your call for Ukraine to surrender its people, territory and natural wealth to an Imperialist shitbag, we can reasonably predict Putin will attack again because it's what he's done the last six or seven times - it might be Ukraine again, he might pick someone different. If people keep giving him what he wants when he attacks, he's going to keep attacking because it's working for him.

O.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2366 on: August 20, 2025, 06:38:37 PM »
Notwithstanding your call for Ukraine to surrender its people, territory and natural wealth to an Imperialist shitbag,
That's pretty big talk, little britches. But why are you so against surrender? The prophet Jeremiah said Judah should surrender to the Babylonians and accept deportation to Babylonia. He said that their descendants would return to their homeland. This happened. Iirc he said something to the effect of, "surrender and live. Otherwise face complete destruction". This is the outcome of Ukraine's current policy. But how do we know when Putin is dead, the territory he has captured won't be returned to Ukraine by a future Russian leader, like India after the British left?
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we can reasonably predict Putin will attack again because it's what he's done the last six or seven times - it might be Ukraine again, he might pick someone different. If people keep giving him what he wants when he attacks, he's going to keep attacking because it's working for him.

O.
Maybe (and maybe not - see message 2634).
I know it's unlikely Ukraine will surrender anything voluntarily. I originally wanted to point out the absurdity of calling for an immediate ceasefire, and of planning to send peacekeeping troops after it. If they want to stop the killing, they need to accept Russia's terms.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2367 on: August 20, 2025, 07:06:27 PM »
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If they want to stop the killing to continue, they need to accept Russia's terms.

FTFY.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2368 on: August 20, 2025, 07:07:42 PM »
That's pretty big talk, little britches. But why are you so against surrender? The prophet Jeremiah said Judah should surrender to the Babylonians and accept deportation to Babylonia. He said that their descendants would return to their homeland. This happened. Iirc he said something to the effect of, "surrender and live. Otherwise face complete destruction". This is the outcome of Ukraine's current policy. But how do we know when Putin is dead, the territory he has captured won't be returned to Ukraine by a future Russian leader, like India after the British left?Maybe (and maybe not - see message 2634).
I know it's unlikely Ukraine will surrender anything voluntarily. I originally wanted to point out the absurdity of calling for an immediate ceasefire, and of planning to send peacekeeping troops after it. If they want to stop the killing, they need to accept Russia's terms.
Afghanistan defeated Russia. Russia will just invade somewhere else.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2369 on: August 20, 2025, 07:50:54 PM »
Afghanistan defeated Russia.
with the help of the CIA and others in Operation "weaken the Soviet Union" (Cyclone). That led to the Taliban and the current situation, with the country in poverty.
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Russia will just invade somewhere else.
Not if the West leaves them alone

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2370 on: August 20, 2025, 08:04:04 PM »
with the help of the CIA and others in Operation "weaken the Soviet Union" (Cyclone). That led to the Taliban and the current situation, with the country in poverty.Not if the West leaves them alone
How is that relevant to Ukraine?

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2371 on: August 21, 2025, 09:42:11 AM »
That's pretty big talk, little britches. But why are you so against surrender? The prophet Jeremiah said Judah should surrender to the Babylonians and accept deportation to Babylonia.

Why would I give a shit what a bad novelist said his mythic figure would do? I'd be as well taking political guidance from Gandalf.

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He said that their descendants would return to their homeland. This happened. Iirc he said something to the effect of, "surrender and live. Otherwise face complete destruction".

And the Israel that we have now is a genocidal authoritarian state, currently - great advert.

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This is the outcome of Ukraine's current policy.

Russian propogandists like you have been saying that for over two years, but Ukraine's still there and hundreds of thousands of Russians aren't.

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But how do we know when Putin is dead, the territory he has captured won't be returned to Ukraine by a future Russian leader, like India after the British left?Maybe (and maybe not - see message 2634).

And the suffering of Ukrainians forced to live under the endemic corruption and racism of the Russian state in the meantime? The rampant profiteering of the Russian oligarchy at the expense of the Ukrainian state and its people while we wait for that completely unheralded, notional but absolutely not likely possibility?
 
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I know it's unlikely Ukraine will surrender anything voluntarily. I originally wanted to point out the absurdity of calling for an immediate ceasefire, and of planning to send peacekeeping troops after it. If they want to stop the killing, they need to accept Russia's terms.

Or, conversely, if we have the will to stand firm, Russia will need to accept the terms of the civilised world - it all rather depends on whether Putin's hold on Trump is firm enough, and whether the European collective can get their shit together and stand firm.

O.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2372 on: August 21, 2025, 10:38:02 AM »
Why would I give a shit what a bad novelist said his mythic figure would do? I'd be as well taking political guidance from Gandalf.
Because the Persians allowed the Jews to return, as Jeremiah predicted.
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And the Israel that we have now is a genocidal authoritarian state, currently - great advert.
I was referring to old testament, not modern Israel.
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Russian propogandists like you have been saying that for over two years, but Ukraine's still there and hundreds of thousands of Russians aren't.
Yes Ukraine has retained most of its territory, but could have achieved this through negotiations without losing its fighting age men (they are now mobilising older and teenaged men).
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And the suffering of Ukrainians forced to live under the endemic corruption and racism of the Russian state in the meantime? The rampant profiteering of the Russian oligarchy at the expense of the Ukrainian state and its people while we wait for that completely unheralded, notional but absolutely not likely possibility?

I hereby predict that one day Putin will die. There, it's a heralded possibility. Well, maybe they will never give it back, but life there can certainly improve.
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Or, conversely, if we have the will to stand firm, Russia will need to accept the terms of the civilised world - it all rather depends on whether Putin's hold on Trump is firm enough, and whether the European collective can get their shit together and stand firm.

O.
Perhaps, but that is unlikely if we just make ridiculous calls for ceasefires and security guarantees that the Russians have already rejected. The only way I see for Russia to be defeated is for the West to continue the fighting once Ukraine's military has collapsed.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2373 on: August 21, 2025, 01:44:39 PM »
Here's a screenshot of what I was about to post. I keep getting "database error".
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Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2374 on: August 21, 2025, 03:04:28 PM »
Because the Persians allowed the Jews to return, as Jeremiah predicted.

And the Persians no longer exist, we have the modern states of Iran, Oman and others. And the Israel of the day no longer exists, we have the modern state of Israel and its current activities. It's almost like ancient history is a poor guide. Let's look at something a little more pertinent and recent - did the Soviet Union cede back control of Czechoslovakia? Or Romania? Or Latvia? Or Lithuania? Or Estonia?

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I was referring to old testament, not modern Israel.

That was sort of my point, you were referring to a fundamentally different social, economic, political and technological paradigm.

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Yes Ukraine has retained most of its territory, but could have achieved this through negotiations without losing its fighting age men (they are now mobilising older and teenaged men).

Or, conversely, and more likely, they could have lost everything and become a subjugated vassal state or an occupied one under the whip of Russian oligarchy and corruption - and your suggestion that they abandon the people in those territories is recommending that they be consigned to that fate.
 
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I hereby predict that one day Putin will die. There, it's a heralded possibility.

I'm sure that's of great comfort to the families of the thousands of stolen Ukrainian children.

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Well, maybe they will never give it back, but life there can certainly improve.

How? How is it going to improve by being absorbed into a less decent, less lawful, less secure, less safe country?

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Perhaps, but that is unlikely if we just make ridiculous calls for ceasefires and security guarantees that the Russians have already rejected.

They can reject them if they want, and then the continued warfare is on them. If we make the guarantee and follow through on it, Russian aggression disappears - we don't even have to send UK troops, there's several thousand Polish troops itching for a chance to show Russia what a first-world arsenal thinks of their tin-pot dictator, his shit-hole logistics and his third-rate weapons platforms with their fourth-rate maintenance regimes.

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The only way I see for Russia to be defeated is for the West to continue the fighting once Ukraine's military has collapsed.

Or before, yes. The only way for Russia to win is for the countries that promised Ukraine they'd stand up for freedom and justice to fail to stand up for it. Or, to put it in better known terms, the only way for evil to flourish is for good men to stand by and do nothing.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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