Arming the Ukrainians

[Spud]

That was sort of my point, you were referring to a fundamentally different social, economic, political and technological paradigm.

You seem to be saying that surrender is not an option; I'm saying that from a moral perspective it is an option, if we take the Bible, in particular what Jeremiah said, as the moral standard.

[ad_orientem]

Spud's advice to rape victims: just relax.

[Spud]

For reference: Jeremiah 27. In particular v11-12:
But any nation that will bring its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him, I will leave on its own land, to work it and dwell there, declares the Lord.
To Zedekiah king of Judah I spoke in like manner: "Bring your necks under the yoke of the king of Babylon, and serve him and his people and live."

[ad_orientem]

For reference: Jeremiah 27. In particular v11-12:
But any nation that will bring its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him, I will leave on its own land, to work it and dwell there, declares the Lord.
To Zedekiah king of Judah I spoke in like manner: "Bring your necks under the yoke of the king of Babylon, and serve him and his people and live."

Fuck Jeremiah!

[Outrider]

You seem to be saying that surrender is not an option; I'm saying that from a moral perspective it is an option, if we take the Bible, in particular what Jeremiah said, as the moral standard.

Yet more evidence that you appear to struggle with reading for understanding. I've never suggested for a moment that Ukrainian surrender was not an option, but I've pointed out that both morally and pragmatically it's a problematic strategy. In the short-term it rewards Putin's aggressive expansionist imperialism, and in the long-term it gives Putin time and freedom to rearm and plan his next invasion.

As for Jeremiah, why would I give even half a shit what he had to say, given that even if they are an accurate representation of his words, he was existing in a fundamentally different political, social, economic and military paradigm? At least if you were to suggest Sun Tzu's 'Art of War' it would be directly relevant, or von Clausewitz's 'Vom Kriege' it'd only be from the last millennium.

O.

[Spud]

Yet more evidence that you appear to struggle with reading for understanding. I've never suggested for a moment that Ukrainian surrender was not an option, but I've pointed out that both morally and pragmatically it's a problematic strategy. In the short-term it rewards Putin's aggressive expansionist imperialism, and in the long-term it gives Putin time and freedom to rearm and plan his next invasion.

As for Jeremiah, why would I give even half a shit what he had to say, given that even if they are an accurate representation of his words, he was existing in a fundamentally different political, social, economic and military paradigm? At least if you were to suggest Sun Tzu's 'Art of War' it would be directly relevant, or von Clausewitz's 'Vom Kriege' it'd only be from the last millennium.

O.

At worst, they might re-establish  the Soviet Union, but that would be a less worse option than fighting to the last man. At best, Ukraine's capitulation might have resulted in it being a bit like Belarus. That doesn't seem like a big problem to me.

[Outrider]

At worst, they might re-establish  the Soviet Union, but that would be a less worse option than fighting to the last man.

Less worse for whom?

At best, Ukraine's capitulation might have resulted in it being a bit like Belarus. That doesn't seem like a big problem to me.

That says a lot about you, and not much about why Ukraine should capitulate, and why Western Europe should tolerate Russia doing that to the next country as well.

O.

[Aruntraveller]

That doesn't seem like a big problem to me.

Well, it wouldn't to you. You have proved over and over again that you do not care for human rights:

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2024/country-chapters/belarus

[Nearly Sane]

At worst, they might re-establish  the Soviet Union, but that would be a less worse option than fighting to the last man. At best, Ukraine's capitulation might have resulted in it being a bit like Belarus. That doesn't seem like a big problem to me.

Cheerleading for murder

[ad_orientem]

As I've said before, Igor Girkin or "Strelkov", is one of the few high profile russians who's capable of occasional lucid thought. Fortunately, that makes him an enemy of the state. He's not anti war, just anti how the war is being conducted.

https://x.com/GrandpaRoy2/status/1962543240915321039?s=19

[Dicky Underpants]

At worst, they might re-establish  the Soviet Union, but that would be a less worse option than fighting to the last man. At best, Ukraine's capitulation might have resulted in it being a bit like Belarus. That doesn't seem like a big problem to me.

Considering the millions who were 'disappeared' during the Soviet Union's existence, it hardly seems like a superior option to me. That an archaic throwback like Putin should think of military invasion as a legitimate strategy at this point in the 21st century is astonishing enough in itself, considering the dismal history of such enterprises in the 20th. Well, perhaps we should have capitulated back in the 1940s - after all, the basis of the English language is Germanic, (with a bit of Norman French thrown in), and we could have quite easily adapted to speaking German, I'm sure. Trouble is, there were certain other pseudo-scientific and sociological consequences which would have come with the deal  - not very beneficial to Jews and blacks etc for a start. Putin has no doubt his own pathological rag-bag of phobic obsessions which he would enact on the population of Ukraine, and his attempt to turn back history* has some parallels with my absurd scenario of Britain re-establishing its 'superior' Germanic origins by having allowed itself to be invaded.

*Of course, what Putin considers is 'history' lies in the realms of cloud-cuckoo land.

[ad_orientem]

Considering the millions who were 'disappeared' during the Soviet Union's existence, it hardly seems like a superior option to me. That an archaic throwback like Putin should think of military invasion as a legitimate strategy at this point in the 21st century is astonishing enough in itself, considering the dismal history of such enterprises in the 20th. Well, perhaps we should have capitulated back in the 1940s - after all, the basis of the English language is Germanic, (with a bit of Norman French thrown in), and we could have quite easily have adapted to speaking German, I'm sure. Trouble is, there were certain other pseudo-scientific and sociological consequences which would have come with the deal  - not very beneficial to Jews and blacks etc for a start. Putin has no doubt his own pathological rag-bag of phobic obsessions which he would enact on the population of Ukraine, and his attempt to turn back history* has some parallels with my absurd scenario of Britain re-establishing its 'superior' Germanic origins by having allowed itself to be invaded.

*Of course, what Putin considers is 'history' lies in the realms of cloud-cuckoo land.

Spud, I'll guess, is firmly in the Hitler rehabilitation camp. Not blaming it on Ribbentrop/Molotov but Churchill, who wasn't even PM at the time.

[Nearly Sane]

Russian drones in Polish air space?

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/c2enwk1l9e1t

[Aruntraveller]

Russian drones in Polish air space?

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/c2enwk1l9e1t

It doesn't mean anything, my friend Spud said they were just doing an aerial display to entertain the Polish nation.

[Nearly Sane]

Now drones in Romania


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c80g7g5rmlno

[ad_orientem]

Russian military aircraft keeps violating EU and NATO airspace. This time over Estonia. Just shoot them down instead of issuing condemnations. It can be done without comebacks. Turkey proved this. Russia is testing the West's resolve.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/czrp6p5mj3zo

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34907983.amp

[Nearly Sane]

Trump's latest on the possibility of Ukraine getting all of its land back os notable in its ise of could rather than should.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c07vm35rryeo

[Nearly Sane]

And more farce


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gjp73gp41o

[Nearly Sane]

Trump to impose sanctions on Russia?


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd6758pn6ylo

[Spud]

Considering the millions who were 'disappeared' during the Soviet Union's existence, it hardly seems like a superior option to me.

Maybe, but Putin has stated that although he is sad that the Soviet Union broke up, anyone who wanted to re-establish it would be a fool.

That an archaic throwback like Putin should think of military invasion as a legitimate strategy at this point in the 21st century is astonishing enough in itself, considering the dismal history of such enterprises in the 20th.

True.

Well, perhaps we should have capitulated back in the 1940s - after all, the basis of the English language is Germanic, (with a bit of Norman French thrown in), and we could have quite easily adapted to speaking German, I'm sure. Trouble is, there were certain other pseudo-scientific and sociological consequences which would have come with the deal  - not very beneficial to Jews and blacks etc for a start. Putin has no doubt his own pathological rag-bag of phobic obsessions which he would enact on the population of Ukraine,

Which in particular? Marriage is for one man and one woman?

and his attempt to turn back history* has some parallels with my absurd scenario of Britain re-establishing its 'superior' Germanic origins by having allowed itself to be invaded.

*Of course, what Putin considers is 'history' lies in the realms of cloud-cuckoo land.

In a sense, Britain is allowing itself to be invaded anyway.

[Spud]

Well, it wouldn't to you. You have proved over and over again that you do not care for human rights:

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2024/country-chapters/belarus

I'm not denying there are problems with human rights there. Personally I'd prefer living with restricted rights than being blown apart. And do Ukrainians have any rights at the moment under the current regime? No - they are expected to sacrifice themselves for the sake of territory.

[Spud]

And more farce


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gjp73gp41o

Interesting - Trump said on true social after the Alaska meeting that there should be no ceasefire until a peace plan was in place. Now he's saying there should be an immediate ceasefire.

[Aruntraveller]

Interesting - Trump said on true social after the Alaska meeting that there should be no ceasefire until a peace plan was in place. Now he's saying there should be an immediate ceasefire.

That's due to Trump having the attention span of your average goldfish.

[Outrider]

Maybe, but Putin has stated that although he is sad that the Soviet Union broke up, anyone who wanted to re-establish it would be a fool.

Because of the communism, that doesn't mean he doesn't have an interest in reintegrating all those former territories in a new collective shit-show.

Which in particular? Marriage is for one man and one woman?

Amongst others - Putin does seem to be particularly fond of a regressive, politically active form of Christianity.

In a sense, Britain is allowing itself to be invaded anyway.

Why am I not surprised to hear that from you?

I'm not denying there are problems with human rights there. Personally I'd prefer living with restricted rights than being blown apart. And do Ukrainians have any rights at the moment under the current regime? No -

...because they're being attacked by a foreign power, and existential threats take priority over non-existential threats, but in a world where the developed countries don't sit on the fence and wring their hands this would have all been over long ago. You make it sound like the only possible options are capitulation or prolonged war, but there are, and always have been, options for a quicker resolution to this.

O.

[Dicky Underpants]

Because of the communism, that doesn't mean he doesn't have an interest in reintegrating all those former territories in a new collective shit-show.

Amongst others - Putin does seem to be particularly fond of a regressive, politically active form of Christianity.

Why am I not surprised to hear that from you?

...because they're being attacked by a foreign power, and existential threats take priority over non-existential threats, but in a world where the developed countries don't sit on the fence and wring their hands this would have all been over long ago. You make it sound like the only possible options are capitulation or prolonged war, but there are, and always have been, options for a quicker resolution to this.

O.

Thanks Outrider for saving me the trouble answering, with your intelligent comments. I was contemplating typing something earlier this afternoon, but had to get away. I'll try and add something relevant later.