Deputy First Minister Kate Forbes to stand down as MSP

[Nearly Sane]

Representing the constituencies far from the Ventral belt is a tough task


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c70xejr8drro

[ProfessorDavey]

Representing the constituencies far from the Ventral belt is a tough task


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c70xejr8drro

Also holding views far from the fulcrum of views in your party and in broader society is a tough ask too.

I suspect she's just recognised what Tim Farron eventually recognised some while ago, albeit he'd been able to become leader of the LibDems while keeping his personal views rather quiet while Forbes views are too well known to allow her to be electable as a leader of the SNP or as FM. Seems, perhaps, that she is smart enough to realise this and to bow out rather than face ongoing disappointment if she tried to attain more senior elected positions.

[Nearly Sane]

Also holding views far from the fulcrum of views in your party and in broader society is a tough ask too.

I suspect she's just recognised what Tim Farron eventually recognised some while ago, albeit he'd been able to become leader of the LibDems while keeping his personal views rather quiet while Forbes views are too well known to allow her to be electable as a leader of the SNP or as FM. Seems, perhaps, that she is smart enough to realise this and to bow out rather than face ongoing disappointment if she tried to attain more senior elected positions.

Maybe, I am not as adept as a mind reader as you. The point is surely that if we have a system that penalises parents if youg children in certain constituencies as mentioned in the article then we should wonder if that is a good a system?

[ProfessorDavey]

Maybe, I am not as adept as a mind reader as you. The point is surely that if we have a system that penalises parents if youg children in certain constituencies as mentioned in the article then we should wonder if that is a good a system?

Well firstly, it didn't seem to bother her too much when she was on the way up the greasy pole, which was when her daughter was younger and potentially more reliant on her mother's presence.

But you are correct, it is challenging. But then so are all sorts of other jobs that require one parent to regularly be away from home and/or working highly unsociable hours. And of course she isn't a single mother (unlike some other MSPs and MPs) and therefore has a partner (who actually was a single parent) who can be the regular 'at home' parent to allow Forbes to be away more should they choose. We have (thankfully) moved beyond a world where it must be the mother who stays at home and potentially sacrifices career to allow the father to travel for work. People have to make these kinds of choices all the time and I'm really not sure that the Forbes case is exceptional at all, even in political terms. And often it isn't really a choice but a necessity to make ends meet.

But it is, of course, Forbes choice but it does seem strange that suddenly this is an issue now (when her career seems to be on the wane) when it didn't seem to be even with a younger child when she perceived her career to be on the up.

But on the 'system' - well I'm really not sue we have another solution, unless you think it a good idea for our political system to run entirely on Zoom calls (which I don't). But to serve as a politician is exactly that, service to your electorate and that requires you to work both in your constituency and also wherever the legislature is based. And if you aren't prepared to bare a level of sacrifice for a job that there are countless others ready and willing to step into your shoes, then perhaps it isn't the right job for you.

[Nearly Sane]

Well firstly, it didn't seem to bother her too much when she was on the way up the greasy pole, which was when her daughter was younger and potentially more reliant on her mother's presence.

But you are correct, it is challenging. But then so are all sorts of other jobs that require one parent to regularly be away from home and/or working highly unsociable hours. And of course she isn't a single mother (unlike some other MSPs and MPs) and therefore has a partner (who actually was a single parent) who can be the regular 'at home' parent to allow Forbes to be away more should they choose. We have (thankfully) moved beyond a world where it must be the mother who stays at home and potentially sacrifices career to allow the father to travel for work. People have to make these kinds of choices all the time and I'm really not sure that the Forbes case is exceptional at all, even in political terms. And often it isn't really a choice but a necessity to make ends meet.

But it is, of course, Forbes choice but it does seem strange that suddenly this is an issue now (when her career seems to be on the wane) when it didn't seem to be even with a younger child when she perceived her career to be on the up.

But on the 'system' - well I'm really not sue we have another solution, unless you think it a good idea for our political system to run entirely on Zoom calls (which I don't). But to serve as a politician is exactly that, service to your electorate and that requires you to work both in your constituency and also wherever the legislature is based. And if you aren't prepared to bare a level of sacrifice for a job that there are countless others ready and willing to step into your shoes, then perhaps it isn't the right job for you.

And perhaps that is exactly what Forbes decided. But you attitude is surely the same as all those politicians who opposed any attempts at making the hours of parliament less idiotic? That making jobs reasonable for parents of young children should be problematic because they are not willing to make the sacrifices that you think they should make? If we want democracy to work, then I would suggest we should not make representing people difficult for parents of young children, and that we should be able to think how that might work for people representing different types of constituencies.

ETA - I don't think there has been any claim that Forbes's case is exceptional other than noting that it is easier to in some ways to represent a constituency near to the parliament?

[jeremyp]

Maybe, I am not as adept as a mind reader as you. The point is surely that if we have a system that penalises parents if youg children in certain constituencies as mentioned in the article then we should wonder if that is a good a system?

I'm not sure what can be done about it. MSPs have to work long hours and much of their work has to be done in Edinburgh.

[Nearly Sane]

I'm not sure what can be done about it. MSPs have to work long hours and much of their work has to be done in Edinburgh.

Does it? If we have a system where it's difficult to participate in because of having a normal life we restrict the talent pool  considerably.

[jeremyp]

Does it?

Yes. MSPs are elected to represent the people of the constituency in the parliament. I'd say it is fundamental to the job that they are there in parliament, representing.

If we have a system where it's difficult to participate in because of having a normal life we restrict the talent pool  considerably.

Propose your alternate system. And please don't say "Zoom meetings".

[Nearly Sane]

Yes. MSPs are elected to represent the people of the constituency in the parliament. I'd say it is fundamental to the job that they are there in parliament, representing.

Propose your alternate system. And please don't say "Zoom meetings".

But parliamentary business can be structured better with more thought and consideration. Your objection is very similar to what people said before the Westminster hours were made slightly better. Huge amounts of MSPs and MPs work is in the constituency as well.

As to an alternative system, j think that pountnh out that we have an issue, and that it shoukd be looked at doesn't carry the burden od proposing a whole solution but as a start, looking at regional hubs for some business, restructuring attendance (Note some of that happened during Covid and was then rolled back). Appropriate use of communicatio technology is no bad thing, and understanding how that would best be used would be part of any solution. We should seek to make participation in our democracy as open as possible.

[ProfessorDavey]

I'm not sure what can be done about it. MSPs have to work long hours and much of their work has to be done in Edinburgh.

Exactly and I think it is really important that legislators have regular opportunities for ad hoc, impromptu meetings with other MP/MSPs etc. Anyone who has had experience of remote working knows that simply never happens when meetings are on Zoom/Teams.

And actually do they work long hours in Edinburgh? My understanding is that the Scottish parliament sits for three afternoons per week (Tue-Thurs) 35 weeks a year. So even with a 5 hour journey an MSP need only spend two nights away from home (35 weeks a year) assuming an early start on Tuesday and getting home late on Thursday. That isn't to say that overall hours aren't long, but the Edinburgh commitments for an MSP do not look too onerous to me.

[ProfessorDavey]

Propose your alternate system. And please don't say "Zoom meetings".

NS - classic 'something must be done about it', affrontery. And his solution ... err ... Zoom meetings, which would affect the functioning of the legislator if mandated and applied in a widespread manner. If opt-in this would create a two-tier system of MSPs, first-class MSPs being those in the room (who have greater access and ability to do their jobs of representing their constituents) and second-class MSPs, on the screen and with diminished ability to be heard, influence and be influenced. Anyone who has experienced hybrid meetings knows they don't really work and it is virtually impossible for those not in the room to be involved to the same degree.

[Nearly Sane]

NS - classic 'something must be done about it', affrontery. And his solution ... err ... Zoom meetings, which would affect the functioning of the legislator if mandated and applied in a widespread manner. If opt-in this would create a two-tier system of MSPs, first-class MSPs being those in the room (who have greater access and ability to do their jobs of representing their constituents) and second-class MSPs, on the screen and with diminished ability to be heard, influence and be influenced. Anyone who has experienced hybrid meetings knows they don't really work and it is virtually impossible for those not in the room to be involved to the same degree.

Are you OK, hun?

[ProfessorDavey]

Are you OK, hun?

Perfectly ... although you seem to be living in the 1950s (normal life - err what exactly is that) rather than the modern world. No wonder you are clearly a fan of Forbes.

[jeremyp]

But parliamentary business can be structured better with more thought and consideration. Your objection is very similar to what people said before the Westminster hours were made slightly better. Huge amounts of MSPs and MPs work is in the constituency as well.

Even if it is a standard 9 - 5 job, the issue is that Forbes constituency is remote enough from Edinburgh that she can't easily get back and forth. Changing the hours isn't going to help.

As to an alternative system, j think that pountnh out that we have an issue, and that it shoukd be looked at doesn't carry the burden od proposing a whole solution but as a start, looking at regional hubs for some business,

There are already regional hubs for some business. Democracy in the UK has been organised in a hierarchical way by region for as long as I can remember. Perhaps Forbes could have been a good councillor in her region instead of going for the position in central government.

This is not to criticise Forbes for her decisions but to point out that regional hubs already exist and haven't mitigated the problems that Forbes and other representatives from far flung parts of Scotland (or the UK generally) have to put up with.

restructuring attendance (Note some of that happened during Covid and was then rolled back). Appropriate use of communicatio technology is no bad thing, and understanding how that would best be used would be part of any solution. We should seek to make participation in our democracy as open as possible.

I don't think government or representative democracy can be done effectively using remote working. There are some small improvements to be made, I'm sure, but the fundamental issue here is that Forbes has to spend long periods away from her family.

[jeremyp]

And actually do they work long hours in Edinburgh? My understanding is that the Scottish parliament sits for three afternoons per week (Tue-Thurs) 35 weeks a year.

I don't think the work of an MSP consists entirely of attending parliament three afternoons a week. There will be committees, informal meetings, representations to attend and work back in the constituency. On top of this, Forbes was the deputy First Minister, which is a senior government role. If her family lived next door to Holyrood she probably wouldn't see much of them.

I accept that, as things stand, it's really difficult for MSP's to achieve a good work-life balance. I just don't see how that can be changed in any significant way.

[ProfessorDavey]

Even if it is a standard 9 - 5 job, the issue is that Forbes constituency is remote enough from Edinburgh that she can't easily get back and forth. Changing the hours isn't going to help.

True and this has always created tensions between MPs (and presumably MSPs) depending on where their constituency lies.

I've know a few MPs over the years - most notably one with a constituency about one hour (on a good day) from Westminster and another in a rural Welsh constituency a good 5 hours drive (and about a week by public transport!!!). Their views on working schedule are completely different. The relatively local MP really hated late working as a late session made it difficult to get home in the evening as the trains became increasingly unreliable. So he would be happy with shorter working hours over a greater number of days. For the remote constituency it was quite the opposite - once he was down in London he'd quite happily work long into the night (and then back to his local flat) if it meant he could get away earlier back to his constituency. But of course a late working session would mean a bunch of other MPs tip over from being able to get back in that evening to not being able to get back.

So shifting hours merely moves the challenges from some MPs/MSPs to others.

[Nearly Sane]

Even if it is a standard 9 - 5 job, the issue is that Forbes constituency is remote enough from Edinburgh that she can't easily get back and forth. Changing the hours isn't going to help.There are already regional hubs for some business. Democracy in the UK has been organised in a hierarchical way by region for as long as I can remember. Perhaps Forbes could have been a good councillor in her region instead of going for the position in central government.

This is not to criticise Forbes for her decisions but to point out that regional hubs already exist and haven't mitigated the problems that Forbes and other representatives from far flung parts of Scotland (or the UK generally) have to put up with.I don't think government or representative democracy can be done effectively using remote working. There are some small improvements to be made, I'm sure, but the fundamental issue here is that Forbes has to spend long periods away from her family.

can it be done entirely by remote working, no bit since no o e has suggested that why raise it. Regional hubs can be used as more than just councils. They can be used for parliamentary business as well.  If we make large decisions centralised then that is anti democratic. We improve things by being open to change, and change is incremental, maybe these changes would not be sufficient for Forbes case but that isn't a reafon not to look at what can be achieved 

[Nearly Sane]

Perfectly ... although you seem to be living in the 1950s (normal life - err what exactly is that) rather than the modern world. No wonder you are clearly a fan of Forbes.

Could you outline your justification for any of that post?

[ProfessorDavey]

Could you outline your justification for any of that post?

I've actually written a rather lengthy post to do exactly that - but the system is refusing to allow me to post it. This usually means there is some rude word ... but I cannot find it for the life of me.

Suffice to say that 'normal life' is a hugely movable feast these days and huge swathes of people either choose to or are unable to live what once might have been considered a 'normal life'. The examples I used in the post that is being refused include airline pilots, professional cricketers, nurses, care assistants and pretty well anyone whose normal work place is central London but who do not earn enough to live anywhere close to London.

[ProfessorDavey]

Could you outline your justification for any of that post?

Still refusing my post.

Bottom line - what on earth do you mean by a normal life.

[Nearly Sane]

Still refusing my post.

Bottom line - what on earth do you mean by a normal life.

In the context being a patent of a small child.

[ProfessorDavey]

can it be done entirely by remote working, no bit since no o e has suggested that why raise it. Regional hubs can be used as more than just councils. They can be used for parliamentary business as well.  If we make large decisions centralised then that is anti democratic. We improve things by being open to change, and change is incremental, maybe these changes would not be sufficient for Forbes case but that isn't a reafon not to look at what can be achieved

Err, Edinburgh is a regional hub in Uk democratic and parliamentary terms.

And if you want sub-regions in Scotland, presumably these would need to cover a reasonable number of constituencies, which would presumably by Highlands and Islands:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highlands_and_Islands_(Scottish_Parliament_electoral_region)

Not really sure that's going to help as I imagine it is probably harder (or at least as hard) to travel from (as an example Orkney) to Inverness (as a sensible regional hub) than from Orkney to Edinburgh.

[ProfessorDavey]

In the context being a patent of a small child.

Yup, covered that in the post that refused to post too, specifically:

'And presumably for parents the ability to wave their kids off to school every morning and read a story to them every night.'

There are plenty of people for whom this is just a pipe dream. We ran a children's nursery for 20 years and had numerous parents where this was simply impossible, simply because they worked in London and worked long hours.

[Nearly Sane]

Yup, covered that in the post that refused to post too, specifically:

'And presumably for parents the ability to wave their kids off to school every morning and read a story to them every night.'

There are plenty of people for whom this is just a pipe dream. We ran a children's nursery for 20 years and had numerous parents where this was simply impossible, simply because they worked in London and worked long hours.

Which is just something you pulled out your arse. I think that people who work should have the ability not to feel as if having a small child is a problem. If you think that there shouldn't be thar aim then you are the one living in the 50s and wanting workers to have less rights .


I think it's important in a democracy that we shouldn',t have a situation where people with small children find it difficult to be an MSP or an MO. There has been much progress on that over time, and I think you probably supported all of it. Not sure where raising the question that there might be more to do has triggered you in this way.

[Nearly Sane]

Forbes flagging some is the issues, and highlighting that she is far from the only one to have raised the issue


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cde327y33zzo