Author Topic: Final Points  (Read 692 times)

Sriram

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Final Points
« on: November 06, 2025, 04:03:30 PM »
Hi everyone,

Not much time left on this board.

I would like to make some final points based on what I remember to have discussed in the past with all of you.

1.   Spirituality and Religion are different.
2.   Secular spirituality is a form of practice common to all humans while religion is cultural.
3.   Spirituality is an inner quest through which we identify our true nature.
4.   Consciousness is a fundamental inner reality that goes beyond materialism.
5.   Near death experiences are evidence of an afterlife.
6.   Evolution cannot be a chance based process with random variations forming its foundation. It has to be a deliberate adaptation based process (Phenotypic plasticity).
7.   Natural selection is just a metaphor and not a real process.
8.   It is not about God in a religious sense but about a common intelligent consciousness that is within everything

Thanks for everything guys.

Cheers.

Sriram


Nearly Sane

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2025, 04:38:54 PM »
We still have 7 weeks to kick all of those around

Sriram

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2025, 05:17:34 AM »
 :D That's why I posted it!

Outrider

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2025, 09:36:50 AM »
1.   Spirituality and Religion are different.

OK.

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2.   Secular spirituality is a form of practice common to all humans while religion is cultural.

I'm not sure that it is. I'm reasonably confident I'm human, spirituality is a concept I've still yet to see a meaningful definition of, let alone one that would apply to me.

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3.   Spirituality is an inner quest through which we identify our true nature.

Where does this assumption that we have a 'true nature' come from? We can change our life-path in an instant, it takes a moment to make a decision.

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4.   Consciousness is a fundamental inner reality that goes beyond materialism.

You can think that, if you'd like, but the organ that's generating the thought is your brain.

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5.   Near death experiences are evidence of an afterlife.

Not good evidence, though.

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6.   Evolution cannot be a chance based process with random variations forming its foundation. It has to be a deliberate adaptation based process (Phenotypic plasticity).

No, it's entirely conceivable that evolution is the random process of mutation pruned for efficiency by survival and reproduction rates - there is no requirement for any conscious input or design in order for the phenomenon to operate exactly as we observe.

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7.   Natural selection is just a metaphor and not a real process.

Natural selection is a metaphor for the real process - the process is real, existence favours certain genetic expressions and disfavours others resulting in a selection pressure. The metaphor comes in the idea that 'someone' is required to select. It's natural, and it's real - it's the 'selection' that's metaphoric.

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8.   It is not about God in a religious sense but about a common intelligent consciousness that is within everything.

What is? What collective intelligence is in everything? I had a Reform Party nodule knock on the door on Monday, no evidence of any intelligence of any sort there, collective or otherwise.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Sriram

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2025, 07:52:36 AM »

1. -

2. Spirituality is common to all humans in the sense that it does not depend on ones culture or background. Anyone interested in exploring ones mind and consciousness through subjective processes can take it up.

3. It is about identifying ones Self.....the innermost core of what we really are beyond mental constructs and concepts.

4. The brain in a part of the process. ....just as the hand is part of the process of eating or writing. But the process does not originate in the hand. Similarly the brain. Once the self is identified we can know that it is beyond materialism.

5. Enough evidence that is consistent, across the world and plentiful.

6. The biological organs and processes are too complex and interconnected to be just based on random variations. It has to be a deliberate adaptation where the phenotype adapts regardless of the genotype.

7. Natural Selection is similar to artificial selection that the idea originated from. There is some kind of an intelligence (consciousness) behind it. 

8. Intelligence does not mean human like intelligence. There is some purposeful intelligence that drives evolution and life in general. This has to be sensed through implicit pattern recognition.

Outrider

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2025, 08:25:23 AM »
2. Spirituality is common to all humans in the sense that it does not depend on ones culture or background. Anyone interested in exploring ones mind and consciousness through subjective processes can take it up.

That's psychology. What does this 'spirituality' idea add? What does psychology not cover?

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3. It is about identifying ones Self.....the innermost core of what we really are beyond mental constructs and concepts.

That's still not addressing this assumption that there's a 'true' nature that we need to grasp. You talk about some core of us that is beyond mental constructs and concepts, and yet we are mental constructs, we are a concept - if you go beyond that, you go beyond the person and you're looking, if you're looking at anything, at something else.

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4. The brain in a part of the process. ....just as the hand is part of the process of eating or writing. But the process does not originate in the hand. Similarly the brain. Once the self is identified we can know that it is beyond materialism.

Where is your evidence for this? What are you basing that claim on? Where is the gap in the process that requires something else, where is the sudden appearance of a phenomenon not stimulated by something material?

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5. Enough evidence that is consistent, across the world and plentiful.

Enough for you, perhaps, but you don't seem to set a particularly high standard for the quality or consistency of evidence that you're requiring to support some claims.

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6. The biological organs and processes are too complex and interconnected to be just based on random variations. It has to be a deliberate adaptation where the phenotype adapts regardless of the genotype.

A the long-debunked 'specific complexity' nonsense. Where is the threshold at which something becomes 'too' complicated? How are you determining that? How many billions of iterations or marginal improvements and adaptations would be sufficient to explain a given 'complexity'? The 'specific complexity' claim is just an attempt to outsource the argument from incredulity - you can't believe it, therefore it must be false, your inability to accept it couldn't possibly be a limitation of your own world-view?

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7. Natural Selection is similar to artificial selection that the idea originated from. There is some kind of an intelligence (consciousness) behind it.

Artificial selection descended from natural selection - people saw natural variation in the strains that survived and flourished, and then worked to utilise that by artificially constraining the selection pressures. There is intelligence added to the selection - there is no evidence for any intelligence in the natural selection process - but the variation remains a purely natural, unguided series of events so far as we can tell.

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8. Intelligence does not mean human like intelligence. There is some purposeful intelligence that drives evolution and life in general. This has to be sensed through implicit pattern recognition.

No, this has to be accepted as an article of faith, because whilst the evidence doesn't disprove the notion, no intelligent agency is required in order to have a perfectly functional understanding of the evolutionary process. You can chuck a God/supernatural guiding intelligence into the mix if you want, but it doesn't add anything.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Sriram

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2025, 05:25:39 AM »

1. You can use the word psychology if you want. It is just a new word compared to spirituality. But in spirituality a distinction is made between spirit and mind. The mind is a construct that is created as we grow. Spirit is what we are. The body is like hardware, mind is like software and the spirit is like the person in front of the computer.

2. See above. Spirit is what we are behind the mind and body. We can call it consciousness. Like the moment we are born....consciousness (or spirit) exists but the mind is still to be created. That happens as we grow and learn.

3. The evidence is the fact that when a person is dead the brain remains behind as just a piece of flesh.  The difference between Living and dead  body/brain. It is obvious that when we are alive something within is using the brain....and when that departs the brain remains behind as a rotting flesh.

4. NDE's are the best evidence we have for life after death. ...and it is quite substantial.....for now.

5. Deliberate adaptation has been proven is cases of phenotypic plasticity (polyphenism).

6. Darwin came up with the idea of Natural Selection only after observing Artificial  Selection. It is also likely that, being a religious person earlier, he even believed that some superior intelligence directed the selection.

7. It is a belief but with sufficient reason. Religious beliefs in specific deities and events can be blind belief but not the belief in a natural intelligence (or consciousness) directing evolution and life in general. There is sufficient reason for that.

Gonnagle

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2025, 07:33:30 AM »
Dear Sriram and Outrider, Good Morning ;)

The word "psychology" comes from the Greek words psyche (meaning "breath, soul, or spirit") and logos (meaning "the study of").

The word "spirituality" is derived from the Latin spiritus, which means "breath," "soul," or "vigor".

Gonnagle.
I will now read posts very carefully and then using the two God given brains cells that I have reply as if I am talking to a two year old, yes that should suffice as a gentle reminder✝️✝️✝️❤️

Steve H

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2025, 07:52:20 AM »
Dear Sriram and Outrider, Good Morning ;)

The word "psychology" comes from the Greek words psyche (meaning "breath, soul, or spirit") and logos (meaning "the study of").

The word "spirituality" is derived from the Latin spiritus, which means "breath," "soul," or "vigor".

Gonnagle.
You are committing the etymological fallacy, which is confusing the etymology of a word wit its meaning.
The world is fulfilled by being understood by man.
Giovanni Pico della Mirandola.

Outrider

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2025, 08:31:14 AM »
1. You can use the word psychology if you want. It is just a new word compared to spirituality. But in spirituality a distinction is made between spirit and mind. The mind is a construct that is created as we grow. Spirit is what we are. The body is like hardware, mind is like software and the spirit is like the person in front of the computer.

See, that's why I'd use psychology, because it doesn't venture off into unsubstantiated meaningless ideas like 'spirit' - what we are is mammals who've evolved a capacity for abstraction. Mind is not like software, really, because the mind is dependent upon the structure of the hardware of our body - as to the idea that there's some outside driver operating this, you'd need to show the signals coming in and going out, you'd need to show the consistent presence of stimuli that doesn't have a physical, demonstrable source in order to need some external explanator - and  you don't have that.

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2. See above. Spirit is what we are behind the mind and body. We can call it consciousness. Like the moment we are born....consciousness (or spirit) exists but the mind is still to be created. That happens as we grow and learn.

Why would you need to find some mysticism to justify consciousness - just because we can't completely explain something doesn't mean that you need to resort to magic. Given how nebulous our current conception of 'consciousness' is, trying to ascertain if it's inherent a birth or manifests later seems a stretch. The mind is present from birth, although it's unrefined, and perhaps consciousness is as a result of that, or perhaps consciousness is just one of the tools and patterns that develops as the mind develops.

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3. The evidence is the fact that when a person is dead the brain remains behind as just a piece of flesh.  The difference between Living and dead  body/brain. It is obvious that when we are alive something within is using the brain....and when that departs the brain remains behind as a rotting flesh.

No, what's obvious is that when we're alive there's a continuous, coherent pattern of brain activity, and when we die that stops. We aren't our brains, we're the pattern of brain activity that's happening within it.

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4. NDE's are the best evidence we have for life after death. ...and it is quite substantial.....for now.

Yes, they absolutely are. That's how bad the case for life after death is, that the best you have is NDE.

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5. Deliberate adaptation has been proven is cases of phenotypic plasticity (polyphenism).

You are going to need to provide a citation for a claim that deliberate adaptation has been confirmed in a natural setting; that would be a literally world-changing scientific revelation, and I've seen nothing to that effect in any reliable publication.

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6. Darwin came up with the idea of Natural Selection only after observing Artificial  Selection.

Which in no way invalidates the theory.

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It is also likely that, being a religious person earlier, he even believed that some superior intelligence directed the selection.

My understanding is that he struggled with the implications of his findings, and even hesitated to publish for some time because of the inevitable conclusion, but his scientific integrity won out and he did publish, and he stood by the findings. Yes, he was religious, but he didn't let that religious belief prevent him following the evidence to the logical conclusion.

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7. It is a belief but with sufficient reason. Religious beliefs in specific deities and events can be blind belief but not the belief in a natural intelligence (or consciousness) directing evolution and life in general. There is sufficient reason for that.

If it had sufficient reason, all the people who've read what you think the sufficient reasons are would be convinced, but we aren't. Either they aren't sufficient, they're not reasonable, or both. As to why religious belief (i.e. acceptance of a religious claim in the absence of sufficient evidence to support it, and even in contradiction to the evidence against it in some cases) can be blind, but your preferred unaffiliated belief in some spiritual, supernatural, disembodied intelligence without a body of canon to support it is somehow justified without actually providing that justification remains another claim for you to adequately justify.

You keep making these assertions from your personal position of incredulity - you don't believe it, therefore it must be false. If you want anyone else to think it's false you need something more than just your assertion and the acceptance of your own limitations of imagination and/or understanding. We have evidence of a physical, material existence in which we, as conscious, intelligent, self-aware creature exist. There are things that we don't yet know.

What we have no justification for is presuming that, if we don't currently know something, that it's a result of it being some extra-dimensional, supernatural, magical, spiritual mystery beyond the capacity for humanity to know, and not merely a little bit more complex than we're ready for. It's more likely to be behind the next rock than in Valhalla - we need to look at more rocks, and fewer old books, in order to find new understanding.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Nearly Sane

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2025, 08:37:41 AM »
You are committing the etymological fallacy, which is confusing the etymology of a word wit its meaning.
I think Gonzo is more noting with interest rather than making an argument.

Gonnagle

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2025, 08:57:54 AM »
I think Gonzo is more noting with interest rather than making an argument.

Dear Sane,

Once again, thank you ;)

Gonnagle.
I will now read posts very carefully and then using the two God given brains cells that I have reply as if I am talking to a two year old, yes that should suffice as a gentle reminder✝️✝️✝️❤️

Gonnagle

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2025, 09:06:05 AM »
Hi everyone,

Not much time left on this board.

I would like to make some final points based on what I remember to have discussed in the past with all of you.

1.   Spirituality and Religion are different.
2.   Secular spirituality is a form of practice common to all humans while religion is cultural.
3.   Spirituality is an inner quest through which we identify our true nature.
4.   Consciousness is a fundamental inner reality that goes beyond materialism.
5.   Near death experiences are evidence of an afterlife.
6.   Evolution cannot be a chance based process with random variations forming its foundation. It has to be a deliberate adaptation based process (Phenotypic plasticity).
7.   Natural selection is just a metaphor and not a real process.
8.   It is not about God in a religious sense but about a common intelligent consciousness that is within everything

Thanks for everything guys.

Cheers.

Sriram

Dear Sriram,

Point 2 and point 8, are you basically saying that mankind is a mean seeking creature?

Gonnagle.
I will now read posts very carefully and then using the two God given brains cells that I have reply as if I am talking to a two year old, yes that should suffice as a gentle reminder✝️✝️✝️❤️

Nearly Sane

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2025, 11:12:16 AM »
we

N


....

What we have no justification for is presuming that, if we don't currently know something, that it's a result of it being some extra-dimensional, supernatural, magical, spiritual mystery beyond the capacity for humanity to know, and not merely a little bit more complex than we're ready for. It's more likely to be behind the next rock than in Valhalla - we need to look at more rocks, and fewer old books, in order to find new understanding.

O.
Great post, and this last bit is crucial. Just to add to it that nothing in terms of the supernatural is of explanatory value, rather it just adds another level to be explained which is generally done by hand waving.

ekim

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2025, 03:40:33 PM »
Dear Sriram,

Point 2 and point 8, are you basically saying that mankind is a mean seeking creature?

Gonnagle.
... or may be there are or have been individuals who have had inner 'experiences' that cannot be communicated adequately in words to those who doubt.  H.G. Wells short story 'The Country of the Blind' comes to mind.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Country_of_the_Blind

Sriram

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2025, 06:10:49 AM »
Outrider....


1. There is nothing meaningless about the word spirit. As far as i am concerned, there is nothing supernatural about spirit. It is just what we are. You tend to slot words and concepts into natural and supernatural.....accept the former and reject the latter.

2. Nothing mystical about spirit. It is just about the Self. About identifying what WE are beyond the mind and body. You may prefer to assume that we are just the body and the mind as just a product of the bodily processes. People like me don't.

3. Again....you assume that mere brain activity is all that we are. Many of us believe that we are an entity that possesses consciousness and which occupies the body-mind. There is enough evidence for that assumption.

4. NDE's are also evidence for the above.

5. I think there is enough evidence that organisms adapt their phenotype to suit their environment with the genotype remaining the same.

6. The idea of natural selection was born from artificial selection.  So....it assumes intelligent direction at some level. The purely materialistic idea of random variations was a later creation.

7. IF we don't know something it does not necessarily mean that the gap will be filled by already known materialistic phenomena. 

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2025, 07:02:45 AM »
Great post, and this last bit is crucial. Just to add to it that nothing in terms of the supernatural is of explanatory value, rather it just adds another level to be explained which is generally done by hand waving.
Not happy with the term Supernatural because of it's elasticity in the hands of those using it. I think language frames are the thing which is explanatory and that of science is definitely limited...and that's before we come onto other language frameworks.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2025, 07:28:37 AM »
Not happy with the term Supernatural because of it's elasticity in the hands of those using it. I think language frames are the thing which is explanatory and that of science is definitely limited...and that's before we come onto other language frameworks.
You  can use whatever term you like, it won't change the point that another level is added and there is no explanatory value

Gordon

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2025, 07:30:17 AM »
Not happy with the term Supernatural because of it's elasticity in the hands of those using it. I think language frames are the thing which is explanatory and that of science is definitely limited...and that's before we come onto other language frameworks.

Perhaps you would be happier if we just called it 'Magic': works for me!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2025, 07:37:52 AM »
You  can use whatever term you like, it won't change the point that another level is added and there is no explanatory value
Not sure what you mean by another level added. I think it was Jay Gould who talked about domains and magisteria. I'm happy that science has limits as an explanatory language frame and to pretend it IS the exhaustive language frame is reductionism , eliminitivism and scientism all three of which can and probably have alienated humanity from it's own self value.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2025, 07:40:16 AM »
Perhaps you would be happier if we just called it 'Magic': works for me!
Not sure how you are defining magic here or whether you'll even tell me.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2025, 07:44:18 AM »
Not sure what you mean by another level added. I think it was Jay Gould who talked about domains and magisteria. I'm happy that science has limits as an explanatory language frame and to pretend it IS the exhaustive language frame is reductionism , eliminitivism and scientism all three of which can and probably have alienated humanity from it's own self value.
Since I haven't said anything like that I don't see the relevance of your post. As to another level if you are using the idea that science is limited, which we agree on, and Gould's idea of magisteria which for the purposes of this i'll run with even though i think ot is flawed, then the insertyourfavouredtermforsupernaturalhere is a different thing and is therefore another level. And appears to have no explanatory value.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2025, 08:28:32 AM by Nearly Sane »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2025, 07:51:47 AM »
Since I haven't said anything like that I don't see the relevzn e of your post. As to another level if you are using the idea that science is limited, which we agree on, and Gould's idea of magisteria which for the purposes of this i'll run with even though i think ot is flawed, then the insertyourfavouredtermforsupernaturalhere is a different thing and is therefore another level. And appears to have no explanatory value.
I prefer domain or magisterial. "Another level" suggests either/ both a heirarchy of sufficiency or that one is really the basis of the other. Religion is not "failed science" or is it a partially overlapping magisterial in the way I feel Dawkins suggest it

Nearly Sane

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2025, 08:27:48 AM »
I prefer domain or magisterial. "Another level" suggests either/ both a heirarchy of sufficiency or that one is really the basis of the other. Religion is not "failed science" or is it a partially overlapping magisterial in the way I feel Dawkins suggest it
OK, let's use domain then though as already covered it doesn't change the point. You are adding a domain and it appears to have no explanatory value.

I see you have introduced the idea of non overlapping, presumably from Gould in his use of the idea of non overlapping magisteria. As I said I think Goukd's idea of that is flawed, and in the non overlapping bit completely so. In Sriram's post here he is making statements about events and a view of reality that specifically overlapping with science, e.g. evolution.


Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2025, 08:42:31 AM »
OK, let's use domain then though as already covered it doesn't change the point. You are adding a domain and it appears to have no explanatory value.
A language framework describes Ideas, experiences and observations both individual and corporate indeed any language frame assumes some kind of corps. It is incorrect to assume that only one has explanatory value.
Quote

I see you have introduced the idea of non overlapping, presumably from Gould in his use of the idea of non overlapping magisteria. As I said I think Goukd's idea of that is flawed, and in the non overlapping bit completely so. In Sriram's post here he is making statements about events and a view of reality that specifically overlapping with science, e.g. evolution.
But you are making the same mistake that I feel both Dawkins et cie and the Creationists are making namely that evolution is the essence of religion or that "It all hinges on whether evolution is true. It doesn't and religion is not "failed science".