Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Sports, Hobbies & Interests => Topic started by: Hope on December 21, 2015, 09:08:09 AM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/35144652
Am I right in thinking that this is only one possible ban that Blatter could face? As I read it, it only relates to the improper payment to Michel Platini - who has also been banned for 8 years. I assume that the cases being investigated by the US authorities are totally separate.
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I think he could easily still go to jail.
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Great
now all we have to do is ban professional soccer all together and the world we be a more peaceful place.
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Great
now all we have to do is ban professional soccer all together and the world we be a more peaceful place.
I'd disagree; professional football has been of great benefit to many parts of the world. Its the administrators who haven't always been.
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Great
now all we have to do is ban professional soccer all together and the world we be a more peaceful place.
Fine.
But leave football alone!
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Fine.
But leave football alone!
Association football (soccer), rugby football, gaelic football, American football or Aussie rules?
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Association football (soccer), rugby football, gaelic football, American football or Aussie rules?
English, Scottish, and to be honest, the rest of the world football.
The game as it is known by the majority of people. That one!
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English, Scottish, and to be honest, the rest of the world football.
The game as it is known by the majority of people. That one!
Ah, so the one john was referring to when he said soccer. You do realise you can't ban football and leave it alone at the same time?
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Ah, so the one john was referring to when he said soccer. You do realise you can't ban football and leave it alone at the same time?
Not worth arguing over.
Just to say that it is football not soccer.
No one calls it soccer .
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Not worth arguing over.
Just to say that it is football not soccer.
Soccer is a perfectly reasonable alternative name.
No one calls it soccer .
Somebody did just up thread. You need to refine your hypothesis.
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Soccer is a perfectly reasonable alternative name.
Somebody did just up thread. You need to refine your hypothesis.
Its football NOT soccer.
Unless you are in the USA.
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Its football NOT soccer.
Unless you are in the USA.
Soccer is a completely legitimate term for the game and it was coined in England.
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Soccer is a completely legitimate term for the game and it was coined in England.
No it's not.
Its football.
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No it's not.
Its football.
You don't get to choose what words mean in the English language. Soccer is a legitimate name for football and your denials won't change that.
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You don't get to choose what words mean in the English language. Soccer is a legitimate name for football and your denials won't change that.
Goodness me. For myself I wouldn't have a clue which end of the bat/racket/club to hold if you paid me, but this football whatsit does seem to stir up some high passions, doesn't it?
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Goodness me. For myself I wouldn't have a clue which end of the bat/racket/club to hold if you paid me, but this football whatsit does seem to stir up some high passions, doesn't it?
That's what makes it great.
Although this is just a pedantic argument about the meanings of words.
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You don't get to choose what words mean in the English language. Soccer is a legitimate name for football and your denials won't change that.
No it's not.
Its football.
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No it's not.
You don't get to choose what words mean in the English language. Soccer is a legitimate name for football and your denials won't change that.
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You don't get to choose what words mean in the English language. Soccer is a legitimate name for football and your denials won't change that.
No it's not.
It's football.
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Not worth arguing over.
Just to say that it is football not soccer.
No one calls it soccer .
Except the Yanks but then they're odd. They call a game you play with your hands "football".
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No it's not.
It's football.
Agreed.
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You don't get to choose what words mean in the English language. Soccer is a legitimate name for football and your denials won't change that.
Jeremy - we've been through this on another thread at length.
The term 'soccer' is not and I don't think has ever been an accepted term for football amongst football fans. I have never known a British football fan who falls the sport they follow 'soccer'.
I suspect it never was acceptable, probably because it was coined by a person (Charles Wreford-Brown) who was desperate to keep football as a sport played only in elite public schools and elite universities, to be completely amateur and had a distain for spectators as he believed that the sport should only be played, not watched. Not surprising then that the teams and their fans gaining prominence during that time (1880s and 1890s) that were professional, working class, often from tough northern and midlands communities would saw Wreford-Brown as a hate figure and almost certainly hated his term 'soccer' which was synonymous with his version of the game (elite, amateur) than the game that took hold.
Bottom line, in Britain if anyone uses the term 'soccer' you know straight away that they aren't actually a football fan and often they are not just neutral towards football but look down on it, thinking it to be lesser than rugby or other sports.
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Spot on Prof
"Bottom line, in Britain if anyone uses the term 'soccer' you know straight away that they aren't actually a football fan and often they are not just neutral towards football but look down on it, thinking it to be lesser than rugby or other sports."
It is a very silly games with no rules to punish bad behaviour, moron supporters can't even be trusted to sit together without fighting or spitting at each other, professional soccer has nothing whatsoever to do with sport it's main reason for existence is to make a handful of people at the top richer.
As opposed to "park soccer" which is great fun for kids and keeps em fit.
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Spot on Prof
"Bottom line, in Britain if anyone uses the term 'soccer' you know straight away that they aren't actually a football fan and often they are not just neutral towards football but look down on it, thinking it to be lesser than rugby or other sports."
It is a very silly games with no rules to punish bad behaviour, moron supporters can't even be trusted to sit together without fighting or spitting at each other, professional soccer has nothing whatsoever to do with sport it's main reason for existence is to make a handful of people at the top richer.
As opposed to "park soccer" which is great fun for kids and keeps em fit.
And given that you were the one who started the discussion by referring to football as 'soccer' you have rather proved my point about it only being used in Britain by people who aren't football fans and have a negative view of the game.
And well done for trotting out all the tired old stereotypes all in one go.
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Football acts like a brilliant social glue. In my lifetime I've seen rivalry between different sets of supporters change from nasty to good natured, apart from a hardcore of idiots. Football's got very good at laughing at the absurdity of itself, whether through programmes like Fantasy Football and Soccer AM - a style which has filtered through to football reporting across the board - satire on Newsthump or the way people use Twitter. It's taken the heat out of a lot of it.
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Football acts like a brilliant social glue. In my lifetime I've seen rivalry between different sets of supporters change from nasty to good natured, apart from a hardcore of idiots. Football's got very good at laughing at the absurdity of itself, whether through programmes like Fantasy Football and Soccer AM - a style which has filtered through to football reporting across the board - satire on Newsthump or the way people use Twitter. It's taken the heat out of a lot of it.
Indeed, and the whole notion of massive levels of football related violence compared to other sports simply isn't backed up by the evidence.
So in the latest figures (which are published in full for football related incidents, both inside and outside grounds) from a total of over 38 million attendances in 2014/15 there were just over 1,800 arrests (the lowest on record) - levels which are comparable or much lower than many other mass attendance events, such as festivals. In the premier league this equates to about 1 arrest per match, noting that each one is likely to have up to 70,000 fans attending.
Of course it is harder than finding hen's teeth to get comparable figures in rugby and indeed some have tried (and failed via freedom of information requests) - but there is data on arrests at Twickenham rugby games of which there are about 10-15 per year - and guess what over several years arrest levels per year at Twickenham at rugby games (and I believe this is only in the ground) have run at 15, so about one per game, exactly the same as premier league football games.
Now I imagine stats from the recent Rugby world cup will ultimately emerge, but I've not seen it, but there are from the 2011 world cup in New Zealand, specifically relating to the 11 games played in Auckland - police reported a total of 37 arrests related to the matches (both inside and outside the ground - that's about three times greater than for premier league football games. So much for the football hooligan vs the gentile rugby fan - a myth busted by the evidence.
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The one social group local to me that I would never want to meet on a night out is the local rugby club.
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The one social group local to me that I would never want to meet on a night out is the local rugby club.
That's interesting, especially as it is generally agreed that violence in rugby exists on the field and not off it (unlike football). As someone who has played both at local level - give me a rugby team and their supporters over their football equivalents.
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That's interesting, especially as it is generally agreed that violence in rugby exists on the field and not off it (unlike football). As someone who has played both at local level - give me a rugby team and their supporters over their football equivalents.
They do get into fights. Mostly though it's how they treat women when they are out 'socialising' - truly disgusting.
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That's interesting, especially as it is generally agreed that violence in rugby exists on the field and not off it (unlike football). As someone who has played both at local level - give me a rugby team and their supporters over their football equivalents.
But sometimes something that is 'generally agreed' turns out not to be true when tested against the evidence.
I would certainly accept that once upon a time football had a big problem with hooliganism, but that seems to have largely been dealt with.
So now we seem to have a situation where arrests at football aren't really very different to those at other major events - and certainly top flight football seems to be very comparable to top flight rugby at Twickenham.
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I agree. I've no worries when my son goes to an EPL match with his dad. It's so different from when I was growing up.
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That's interesting, especially as it is generally agreed that violence in rugby exists on the field and not off it (unlike football). As someone who has played both at local level - give me a rugby team and their supporters over their football equivalents.
I think the level of complacency amongst rugby fans over the drinking culture and associated problems linked to rugby is rather worrying.
The trends in football are all in the right direction, but I worry that the trends in rugby are going in the wrong direction. I wouldn't want to go anywhere near Cardiff city centre on a big match night - and I know plenty of people who live in Cardiff who once used to enjoy the atmosphere after a game who get out quick now due to the levels of drunken-ness and associated violence/trouble. And this isn't just me as this article indicates:
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/wales-v-england-idiotic-fans-8599135
Rugby may well be sleepwalking into problems at a time when football is getting its game in order.
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I think the level of complacency amongst rugby fans over the drinking culture and associated problems linked to rugby is rather worrying.
The trends in football are all in the right direction, but I worry that the trends in rugby are going in the wrong direction. I wouldn't want to go anywhere near Cardiff city centre on a big match night ...
PD, I wouldn't go anywhere near Cardiff City Centre on ANY Friday evening, let alone a big (rugby) match night - also usually a Friday.
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PD, I wouldn't go anywhere near Cardiff City Centre on ANY Friday evening, let alone a big (rugby) match night - also usually a Friday.
But while football seems to be putting in place mechanism to actively discourage excessive drinking and the problems than ensue linked to matches, rugby seems to continue to kind of actively encourage it. And the Friday night games with their drink all afternoon, the drink all night after the game model seems to be part of that.
But if rugby fans wreck a city centre, leaving carnage in their wake and arrests left, right and centre somehow this is 'high spirits', 'good natured banter', 'atmosphere', yet if football fans did the same it would be 'drunken hooligans on the rampage' and 'ban them'.
Double standards without a shadow of doubt.
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Rugby = allegedly invented at a public school and therefore the preserve of high-spirited but well-bred young men letting off steam.
Football = a traditionally working-class sport and therefore the preserve of unwashed, common oiks, drunken thugs and violent yobbos.
Seem to be the traditional perception, I think.
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So there is no such thing as football violence!
Link below shows numerous articles from this years Daily Mirror
http://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/football-violence
Reading the comments earlier on this thread it seems the whitewashers only want to talk about violence in the stadiums. Due to CCTV this is much reduced over recent years it is true. But violence in the towns around football grounds is a bad as ever. Which is why huge numbers of police are deployed to keep the animals apart, different railway/bus stations etc are used for "fans" from different teams.
Google "World Wide Football Violence" to see the extent to which violence is endemic amongst football fans throughout the world.
Talk about blinkered viewpoints!!!
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No it's not.
It's football.
You don't get to choose what words mean in the English language. Soccer is a legitimate name for football and your denials won't change that.
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Jeremy - we've been through this on another thread at length.
The term 'soccer' is not and I don't think has ever been an accepted term for football amongst football fans.
Football fans don't get to decide how the English language is used. "Soccer" is an accepted term for Association Football.
Furthermore, soccer is certainly certainly an accepted term amongst fans of football in the USA.
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My favourite hardcore football fans - the Whitehawk Ultras.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitehawk_F.C.
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You don't get to choose what words mean in the English language. Soccer is a legitimate name for football and your denials won't change that.
I do deny it.
Its football.
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Its football.
also known as soccer.
To save us both time, let's assume you are going to deny soccer is a legitimate term for football ad infinitum and I am going to assert it ad infinitum.
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So there is no such thing as football violence!
Where did I ever say that - what I said was that trouble associated with football matches in Britain is diminishing year on year and that's backed up by evidence. And that the levels of arrests aren't really much different to many other comparable big attendance events - such as music festivals, and indeed Twickenham rugby matches - and that's backed up by evidence.
Reading the comments earlier on this thread it seems the whitewashers only want to talk about violence in the stadiums. Due to CCTV this is much reduced over recent years it is true. But violence in the towns around football grounds is a bad as ever.
Which is why the reported stats include incidents both inside and outside the grounds - and in both cases they are falling year on year and have been for decades since the peak of the problem in the 1980s.
Talk about blinkered viewpoints!!!
No the blinkered viewpoint is to consider football fans, however well behaved, as being 'animals' and yet completely ignore any problems in other sports, for example rugby.
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Football fans don't get to decide how the English language is used. "Soccer" is an accepted term for Association Football.
Accepted by who? Certainly not by football fans in the UK or those actually involved in the sport. Soccer is not an accepted term to those people - football is.
And I think you need to differentiate between 'accepted' and 'recognised'. The term soccer might be 'recognised in the UK, but it isn't accepted, any more than the term 'Mick' to describe Irish people might be recognised (people understand that some people use that term) but it isn't accepted, and it certainly isn't accepted by Irish people themselves, just as soccer isn't accepted by the British football community.
Furthermore, soccer is certainly certainly an accepted term amongst fans of football in the USA.
I agree that soccer is an accepted term for football in the USA, due to the potential confusion with a different, and more established, sport that is called 'football' in the US. But it isn't in the UK.
And the country distinctions are important - american football is an 'accepted' term for gridiron (to use another term again) in Britain (to distinguish it from 'football'), american football isn't an accepted term for gridiron in the USA. And the converse is true also - soccer is an accepted term for association football in the USA, it isn't in Britain.
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Which is why huge numbers of police are deployed to keep the animals apart, different railway/bus stations etc are used for "fans" from different teams.
Really - news to me - have you ever actually been to a football game.
There is a longstanding tradition, dating from well before the upturn in hooliganism in the 1970s for football fans to congregate in certain parts of the ground - so effectively a 'home' end and an 'away' end - e.g Kop, Streford end etc. This is different to rugby which has always had a tradition of mixed areas. This wasn't originally to do with 'segregation' for security reasons at all, but just how the fans wanted to be. Indeed you see this still at tiny grounds (e.g. my local non league club) which has no segregation at all. The home fans congregate at one end, the away fans at the other and at half time there is a bizarre ritual where the fans move on mass to the opposite end so they are always behind the goal their team are attacking.
And sure at big ground with big attendances the different areas mean that fans need to access different entrances to the ground. But this is the same at any large attendance event - last time I attended the O2 for a concert, fans were guided to particular entrances to gain admittance.
But the notion that fans are somehow segregated outside of the ground is totally alien to me. When I'm wandering down Vicarage Road to a Watford game, the away fans are also wandering down the same road. Same thing outside the Arsenal stadium and any other match I can think of.
The only games I can think of that were different were cup semi finals, which were played at a neutral ground and fans were routed toward the stadium via different routes. But this wasn't anything to do with security but traffic management as (unusually) all fans are coming from a distance and often it is more sensible to route them to the stadium from different directions. And by the way, exactly the same thing happens at the Millennium stadium for rugby matches.
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Proffesor
Your understanding of the term FOOTBALL VIOLENCE is different to mine.
I am not talking about a few drunks being locked up for rowdy behavoir.
I am talking about gangs of youths setting on another football fan for wearing the wrong colour scarf.
I'm talking gangs of youths chanting "your all a load of wankers" as they walk through Birmingham on their way to the station. The police do not arrest them because there are 200 of them and only 20 police men and if they each arrested 1 there would still be 180 left, so the police have to be pragmatic...... And no arrests appear on the statistics.
Visit any football grounds to see the large numbers of police deployed to separate and shepherd the fans out of/into the area. And observe the damage done along the way.
Visit any hospital A & E near a soccer ground and see who's there and why.
I take it you don't actually go anywhere near football grounds on match days.
It happens not only in England but all over the world where soccer is played.
And is definitely not the same as a few unconnected drunks being locked up as individuals at other public events.
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Proffesor
Your understanding of the term FOOTBALL VIOLENCE is different to mine.
I am not talking about a few drunks being locked up for rowdy behavoir.
I am talking about gangs of youths setting on another football fan for wearing the wrong colour scarf.
I'm talking gangs of youths chanting "your all a load of wankers" as they walk through Birmingham on their way to the station. The police do not arrest them because there are 200 of them and only 20 police men and if they each arrested 1 there would still be 180 left, so the police have to be pragmatic...... And no arrests appear on the statistics.
Visit any football grounds to see the large numbers of police deployed to separate and shepherd the fans out of/into the area. And observe the damage done along the way.
Visit any hospital A & E near a soccer ground and see who's there and why.
I take it you don't actually go anywhere near football grounds on match days.
It happens not only in England but all over the world where soccer is played.
And is definitely not the same as a few unconnected drunks being locked up as individuals at other public events.
Due you really think that the type of incident you describe (and I am not denying it happens occasionally associated with football) would not be reported to the police and recorded in the official figures that are released each year for football related incidents. Of course they are. And the numbers of these incidents are declining year on year and resulted in about 1800 arrests last year (inside and outside grounds at all matches at every level of football down to non league) out of about 38,000,000 attendance across all matches and all divisions.
And yes I do go near football grounds on match days - because often I am attending that match. Do you? Do you know what you are actually talking about.
And actually of those 1800 arrests the vast majority are of the type you describe as 'a few drunks being locked up for rowdy behaviour'. Last year there were less than 300 arrests for 'violent disorder', which would include (but not be limited to) what you describe as 'gangs of youths setting on another football fan for wearing the wrong colour scarf' with the victim ending up in A&E.
So for 38,000,000 attendance events there are a few hundred arrests for violent disorder - hardly a common occurrence at football matches, surely you'd agree if you actually bothered to look at the evidence rather than your blinkered prejudice. So, no A&E departments aren't filled with football fans admitted as victims of football related violence.
And why is this so different to the drunken violence and arrests in Cardiff flowing last February's Wales vs England rugby, or the arrests (at a much higher number per game than in English football) in the 2011 rugby world cup in New Zealand, or the 15 arrests per year (just in the ground) at the small number of rugby games at Twickenham - again at rates similar to or probably higher than in top flight English football.
So I am not complacent - I don't want to see any incidents, but a small number are almost inevitable at major events involving rival fans and with alcohol involved. However you want to see the numbers declining (as it is in football), and that decline to be a longstanding an consistent trend (as in football) - you want it taken seriously (as it is in football). What you don't want is complacency (as in rugby), failure even to properly report and monitor incidents and trends (as in rugby), with a clear impression of an increasing problem (as in rugby) that no one really seems to want to address because it is just 'high spirits' (as in rugby).
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also known as soccer.
To save us both time, let's assume you are going to deny soccer is a legitimate term for football ad infinitum and I am going to assert it ad infinitum.
Yes let's do that, cos it's football.
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Yes let's do that, cos it's football.
I've noting that Jeremy P has chosen to ignore my discussions about the person who came up with the term 'soccer' and why right from the very beginning he, and his little slang term, were unlikely ever to be accepted by the growing league of fans of the developing clubs in the 1890s.
He despised them and their developing professional clubs and they despised him for his elitist attitude and appalling actions towards professional footballers. The term soccer was synonymous with that elitist, establishment and anti-professional, anti-working class attitude, so not surprising that with the development of football as a working class, professional game the accepted term in Britain was always football, not soccer, and has always remained football nor soccer.
This is a man who, when he captained England (twice) and was also a selector ensured that every player on the pitch with him was amateur, ignoring every professional player despite the fact that by the 1890s the best teams and best players were professional.
This was the man who in his last match for England (of four caps) when he wasn't captain or involved in selection and therefore had to play with his hated professionals, showed his derision for them and the notion that they got paid for playing football by carrying money onto the pitch and pointedly give each professional who scored a coin to show both his derision for them and also emphasising his wealth and lack of need to earn when playing.
He also had contempt for football supporters - he thought that the game should be played but not watched.
This is the guy who coined soccer - this is the guy who stood for everything that the grassroots fans and professional players were fighting against - this was the term they rejected.
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I've noting that Jeremy P has chosen to ignore my discussions about the person who came up with the term 'soccer' and why right from the very beginning he, and his little slang term, were unlikely ever to be accepted by the growing league of fans of the developing clubs in the 1890s.
He despised them and their developing professional clubs and they despised him for his elitist attitude and appalling actions towards professional footballers. The term soccer was synonymous with that elitist, establishment and anti-professional, anti-working class attitude, so not surprising that with the development of football as a working class, professional game the accepted term in Britain was always football, not soccer, and has always remained football nor soccer.
This is a man who, when he captained England (twice) and was also a selector ensured that every player on the pitch with him was amateur, ignoring every professional player despite the fact that by the 1890s the best teams and best players were professional.
This was the man who in his last match for England (of four caps) when he wasn't captain or involved in selection and therefore had to play with his hated professionals, showed his derision for them and the notion that they got paid for playing football by carrying money onto the pitch and pointedly give each professional who scored a coin to show both his derision for them and also emphasising his wealth and lack of need to earn when playing.
He also had contempt for football supporters - he thought that the game should be played but not watched.
This is the guy who coined soccer - this is the guy who stood for everything that the grassroots fans and professional players were fighting against - this was the term they rejected.
Excellent post.
I guess that's why it's football.
I never even heard the term 'soccer ' when I was young.
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Excellent post.
I guess that's why it's football.
I never even heard the term 'soccer ' when I was young.
Thanks.
Yes I never heard my father (lifelong Burnley fan, but always followed his local team, whether that be Brentford, Tranmere, St Albans, Queen of the South etc) call football 'soccer' nor anyone else of his generation who were football fans. Nor did I ever hear my Grandparents (Burnley and Man C fans respectively) call it 'soccer'.
Nope as far as I am concerned those involved with and committed to football have always called it just that - football, never soccer. If there was a nickname it was always 'footie'.
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Lots of waffle here prof.
First let me say that for more than 20 years I usually attended 2 soccer matches a week as part of my work. So I do know a bit about it.
Here is a specific description between the difference Rugby (and any other sport) and Soccer.....I say soccer cos it clearly winds you up.
There is probably no much more emotive atmosphere at any rugby match than that which exists between Bath and Gloucester (the most rabid rugby town in the UK). Buy a Bath shirt and go to Gloucester for a match you will be welcome in any part of the ground even “The Shed” the standing only area where the most vociferous fans are to be found. You will be in no danger, after the match walk down the street proudly in your Bath shirt, again no danger. Go into Teagues Bar opposite the ground which will be crammed full of Glos Boys in their cherry and white shirts you will probably be one of the very few in blue, black and white, again you will be totally safe and I am prepared to bet money that several of the Glos Boys will buy you a pint especially if Bath have lost.
Then go to watch, say, Birmingham City vs Chelsea wearing a Chelsea shirt. You will only be allowed in the away end and wont get a chance to talk to any BCFC supporters. After the match walk through Birmingham in your Chelsea shirt or go into any of the local pubs and see how long you last.
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Lots of waffle here prof.
Nope - just actual evidence - something your prejudices, blinkered and anecdote strewn posts lack.
There is probably no much more emotive atmosphere at any rugby match than that which exists between Bath and Gloucester (the most rabid rugby town in the UK). Buy a Bath shirt and go to Gloucester for a match you will be welcome in any part of the ground even “The Shed” the standing only area where the most vociferous fans are to be found. You will be in no danger, after the match walk down the street proudly in your Bath shirt, again no danger. Go into Teagues Bar opposite the ground which will be crammed full of Glos Boys in their cherry and white shirts you will probably be one of the very few in blue, black and white, again you will be totally safe and I am prepared to bet money that several of the Glos Boys will buy you a pint especially if Bath have lost.
Hard to start a fight in an empty room - have you ever checked out how few people attend club rugby in England - even top flight matches.
Then go to watch, say, Birmingham City vs Chelsea wearing a Chelsea shirt. You will only be allowed in the away end and wont get a chance to talk to any BCFC supporters. After the match walk through Birmingham in your Chelsea shirt or go into any of the local pubs and see how long you last.
Don this plenty of times - admittedly not at Birmingham, but at Chelsea, been an obvious away fan in the Shed end - not a problem at all. Also been into pubs as an away fan with home fans loads of time - never a problem.
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There is probably no much more emotive atmosphere at any rugby match than that which exists between Bath and Gloucester (the most rabid rugby town in the UK). Buy a Bath shirt and go to Gloucester for a match you will be welcome in any part of the ground even “The Shed” the standing only area where the most vociferous fans are to be found. You will be in no danger, after the match walk down the street proudly in your Bath shirt, again no danger. Go into Teagues Bar opposite the ground which will be crammed full of Glos Boys in their cherry and white shirts you will probably be one of the very few in blue, black and white, again you will be totally safe and I am prepared to bet money that several of the Glos Boys will buy you a pint especially if Bath have lost.
Oh dear John.
Seems there was trouble on and off the field at that fixture last year.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2603899/RFU-officials-set-investigate-Kingsholm-Brawl-Bath-Gloucester.html
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Hi Prof
Been away for a few days.
Gee all that work to find that.... Some rugby players fighting on the pitch.... I’ve got news for you that’s not unusual at all and adequately dealt with by the officials. Rugby is a very tough game all about physical confrontation; suggest you watch more rugby to see more. And one drunk throws a plastic bottle at the ref and is then restrained by the other fans around him, oh dear.
It is nothing whatsoever like the fan vs fan violence which is endemic at soccer matches is it?
Fighting fans close down London Railway Station.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11610851/Football-violence-grips-mjaor-London-rail-hub.html
London Bar smashed up.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/shocking-cctv-shows-the-moment-qpr-football-hooligans-attacked-rival-fans-outside-west-london-bar-10185936.html
Police fight to separate fans at Rotherham football ground.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/watch-shocking-scenes-fan-violence-5251341
Website used to co ordinate football violence by Cambridge fans.
http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Vile-Cambridge-football-violence-website-probe/story-26224001-detail/story.html
Etc. Etc. Etc. Just Google football violence 2015 to find hundreds of examples in the UK alone.
Many more examples can be found from all over the world. Here is just one example.
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/02/06/football/africa-cup-of-nations-violence-equatorial-guinea/index.html
It is quite clear to anyone who looks without blinkers that violence amongst football fans is endemic all over the world.
So many people are making so much money out of football though that nothing is done about it.
EVEN DAVID BECKHAM prefers watching rugby, he says the nastyness of football crowds makes him feel uncomfortable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/12036209/David-Beckham-I-prefer-watching-live-rugby-to-football.html
Open your eyes Prof stop being so naive.
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Hi Prof
Been away for a few days.
Gee all that work to find that.... Some rugby players fighting on the pitch.... I’ve got news for you that’s not unusual at all and adequately dealt with by the officials. Rugby is a very tough game all about physical confrontation; suggest you watch more rugby to see more. And one drunk throws a plastic bottle at the ref and is then restrained by the other fans around him, oh dear.
It is nothing whatsoever like the fan vs fan violence which is endemic at soccer matches is it?
Fighting fans close down London Railway Station.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11610851/Football-violence-grips-mjaor-London-rail-hub.html
London Bar smashed up.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/shocking-cctv-shows-the-moment-qpr-football-hooligans-attacked-rival-fans-outside-west-london-bar-10185936.html
Police fight to separate fans at Rotherham football ground.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/watch-shocking-scenes-fan-violence-5251341
Website used to co ordinate football violence by Cambridge fans.
http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Vile-Cambridge-football-violence-website-probe/story-26224001-detail/story.html
Etc. Etc. Etc. Just Google football violence 2015 to find hundreds of examples in the UK alone.
Many more examples can be found from all over the world. Here is just one example.
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/02/06/football/africa-cup-of-nations-violence-equatorial-guinea/index.html
It is quite clear to anyone who looks without blinkers that violence amongst football fans is endemic all over the world.
So many people are making so much money out of football though that nothing is done about it.
EVEN DAVID BECKHAM prefers watching rugby, he says the nastyness of football crowds makes him feel uncomfortable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/12036209/David-Beckham-I-prefer-watching-live-rugby-to-football.html
Open your eyes Prof stop being so naive.
I was talking about the missile throwing from the fans not the violence on the pitch, which is of course common-place in rugby. It missile throwing just high jinks if it is a rugby fan but somehow appalling violence perpetrated by an 'animal' if it is a football fan - astonishingly blinkered and prejudiced John.
But we can all trade links - so here are a few:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2603899/RFU-officials-set-investigate-Kingsholm-Brawl-Bath-Gloucester.html
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/wales-v-england-idiotic-fans-8599135
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/watch-rugby-wigan-leeds-fight-10238305
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyleague/article-2721262/Widnes-beat-Castleford-reach-Challenge-Cup-final-chaotic-scenes-final-whistle-fans-invade-pitch-fights-break-out.html
And international
http://www.rugby365.com/article/53205-crowd-violence-not-new
The notion that rugby is trouble free and every football match is attended exclusively by violent animals is non-sense as these links show.
And you have chosen to ignore my comment on attendance - very few people attend club rugby matches (and of course there are few internationals) so due to the massively greater attendance at football you are likely to get more problems on an absolute basis even if per attendance it is no greater. So just to give an astonishing statistic. The total attendance at all aviva premier rugby matches in the whole season was just about exactly the same as attendance at Man U home games - one club and only home games.
There is also another point - that there are precious few genuine club rugby fans in the way there are passionate football club fans. I know plenty of people who go to the 'event' of a 6 nations match who never go to club rugby, don't really support a club team and probably have no idea who is currently top of the league. I also know people who go to club rugby but don't really support a team - happy to trot along to Harlequins, Wasps or Saracens (when they were all in London) to fit with their social calendar, but didn't really 'support' any of them.
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You're waffling Prof
No one least of all me, will deny that drunkenness and violence occur at any public order event, even Rugby matches.
But only football has regular, organised, deliberate fan vs fan violence.
All but blinkered soccer fans will see it.
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You're waffling Prof
No one least of all me, will deny that drunkenness and violence occur at any public order event, even Rugby matches.
But only football has regular, organised, deliberate fan vs fan violence.
All but blinkered soccer fans will see it.
That's fine then as I do not know any soccer fans.
Are there any in the UK?
I doubt it.
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You're waffling Prof
No one least of all me, will deny that drunkenness and violence occur at any public order event, even Rugby matches.
But only football has regular, organised, deliberate fan vs fan violence.
All but blinkered soccer fans will see it.
Football does not have regular organised fan vs fan violence, at least not in the UK.
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Football does not have regular organised fan vs fan violence, at least not in the UK.
Sadly John doesn't seem to have understood that we are in 2015 not 1985. A lot has changed in those 30 years.
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I imagine John lives in the US?
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I imagine John lives in the US?
Perhaps - yet he claims to have 'for more than 20 years I usually attended 2 soccer matches a week as part of my work'.
Of course he failed to elaborate on where or what that work was, nor whether this was decades ago or recently.
He clearly has no understanding of the current state of football and football fans in the UK with his preposterous claims of A&Es full of fans injured by fan on fan violence with his claim:
'Visit any hospital A & E near a soccer ground and see who's there and why.'
He clearly hasn't got a clue.
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But only football has regular, organised, deliberate fan vs fan violence.
Never heard of the reputation of the fans at the annual Army vs Navy rugby fixture at Twickenham then have you.
And as pointed out by others your statement is totally wrong - certainly on the basis of 'regular' fan vs fan violence.
Last season there were less than 200 arrests for violent conduct (out of over 39,000,000 total attendance) at football in England. And of course there is nothing to suggest these were organised fan vs fan incidents.
Translating that to rugby to take account of the fact that there are about 20 time less total attendance at English rugby than English football, that would equate to about 10 arrests per season linked to rugby. Are you quite sure there weren't of the order of 10 arrests for violent conduct at rugby matches last season John, either inside the stadium or outside maybe due to drunken brawling. You'd be a brave man to put your money on markedly fewer than 10 arrests for the whole of last season John. But of course we don't know - why? Because proper stats aren't collected for arrests and trouble associated with rugby, because the clubs and authorities aren't really taking the issue seriously of the drinking culture and associated trouble that is so closely with watching rugby.