Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: floo on February 08, 2016, 03:45:00 PM
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Should parents have the right to remove their children from school sex education classes?
I think the answer to that is a resounding NO! Of course parents should discuss the facts of life with their children in an age appropriate way, as we did with our kids. However, some parents, even in this day and age, through embarrassment maybe, or for weird religious reasons, don't give their kids proper sex education. Therefore, like Maths and English it should be a compulsory subject from which children cannot be removed.
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Should parents have the right to remove their children from school sex education classes?
I think the answer to that is a resounding NO! Of course parents should discuss the facts of life with their children in an age appropriate way, as we did with our kids. However, some parents, even in this day and age, through embarrassment maybe, or for weird religious reasons, don't give their kids proper sex education. Therefore, like Maths and English it should be a compulsory subject from which children cannot be removed.
I agree.
I doubt if very many parents are qualified to give age-appropriate, thorough and above all accurate information, so if they can't do it the professionals will have to. Almost everyone, with very few exceptions, has a sexual life and anything that can make that better - happier, healthier, safer and more informed - is to the good. We don't have to guess, we have the evidence to demonstrate that good-quality, comprehensive sex education, started early, results in fewer unwanted pregnancies (and possibly STIs). It's a win-win situation.
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I've always been as open with my children as I can be about sex - I did once explain why 69 is so hilarious to teenage boys by drawing a diagram on the back of an envelope. Whether this is the case for most parents I don't know - it's not something that other mums talk about.
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I've always been as open with my children as I can be about sex - I did once explain why 69 is so hilarious to teenage boys by drawing a diagram on the back of an envelope.
I do hope that you didn't neglect to explain that the only problem is the view.
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As soon as our children were old enough to ask questions about where babies came from(usually around the age of three), I answered them honestly in an age appropriate way. No subject was ever taboo in our home, and the dinner table conversations could be X rated at times! I did however have one proviso that the subject of sex was not alluded to if my Mother was visiting, she would have died, as she was the world's biggest prude!
Before I started secondary school my Mother was supposed to have told me about periods, and the where babies came from talk! She nearly died, and I said I knew all about it to save us both being embarrassed. I had a fairly hazy notion about both topics at the age of 11. Mum was very remiss because she left it to me to instruct my younger siblings, before they went to secondary school, which really wasn't on!
Sex education at my school, (all girls) was dealt with in the biology class when we were 15. It was HILARIOUS! The biology master was highly embarrassed when teaching us about the birds and the bees, we probably knew more about the topic than him, as sex was invented in the 60s. ;D To add to the poor guy's embarrassment we teased him, "Ooh Sir you are going as red as your tie!" ;D
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As I suspected, you really didn't need the state to teach you about sex at all Floo.
The state must respect fully the values of every family. And this can't be done when they bring in groups like planned parenthood that teach sex outside of marriage is fine and anything goes. No, the state can teach 2+2 but it criminal, in my opinion, to force feed the sexual values of planned parenthood down children's throats. Parents love their children and have the experience, to the state your child is just another young face that it is charged with educating.
If you found that your young girls were being taught what in you view is NOT age appropriate, what then? Do you not feel you were capable of teaching your children about sex? Don't use your deceased mother as an excuse to get of the hook. Your mother tried, and you did, but now you say parents shouldn't bother, let the state take over. Cop out in my opinion.
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Should parents have the right to remove their children from school sex education classes?
I think the answer to that is a resounding NO! Of course parents should discuss the facts of life with their children in an age appropriate way, as we did with our kids. However, some parents, even in this day and age, through embarrassment maybe, or for weird religious reasons, don't give their kids proper sex education. Therefore, like Maths and English it should be a compulsory subject from which children cannot be removed.
The problem is, Floo, that the form some parental sex education takes is dealt with in the "Incest" thread.
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State sex ed equals propaganda. Leave it to the parents, it's their job.
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State sex ed equals propaganda. Leave it to the parents, it's their job.
see #6
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State sex ed equals propaganda. Leave it to the parents, it's their job.
So we leave kids to be at best fed misinformation, half-information and some downright dingbattery, and at worst left ignorant? Stunning answer there to giving kids an education.
Tell me: does this desire on your part to have parents teach their kids extend to history, geography, maths and art, or is it only sex that this applies to?
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I was lucky that I grew up with Just 17 magazine. It took it upon itself to educate its readership about sex, relationships and associated subjects (prositution for example). Bloody good job too because my parents told me absolutely nothing. And this is why I am the opposite.
I want my kids to know that they can talk to me about anything. The danger in school sex ed is that parents think they don't need to bother, when actually always having dialogue open with children is so important.
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The state must respect fully the values of every family.
Why?
Do you respect the values of every wingnut you come across?
I'm sorry you are way off on this one. I don't want to turn this thread into a conversation about gay kids - but just think of the havoc caused to gay kids in families that are deeply homophobic.
Those kids need to hear rational voices about sex and sexuality telling them that they are ok. They do not need to internalise the hatred that their parents have.
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Why?
Do you respect the values of every wingnut you come across?
I'm sorry you are way off on this one. I don't want to turn this thread into a conversation about gay kids - but just think of the havoc caused to gay kids in families that are deeply homophobic.
Those kids need to hear rational voices about sex and sexuality telling them that they are ok. They do not need to internalise the hatred that their parents have.
How many, worldwide, have suicided because of their parents, usually religious, homophobia!
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State sex ed equals propaganda. Leave it to the parents, it's their job.
And if they don't do it, or do it badly, or using the propaganda associated with their religious dogma?
No AO sex and relationship education is far too important to be left to the whims of parents who may or may not do the job properly. Every child has a right to learn about sex in an unbiased manner and the only way to ensure that happens is for it be compulsory within schooling.
And the notion that sex and relationship education in schooling equals propaganda is laughable. Frankly the only people who might try to portray it as such are those who really want to use propaganda - the propaganda associated with their religious dogma.
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The state must respect fully the values of every family.
The state's responsibility to protect children is greater than the right for every family to be left alone by the state.
That's why there are state powers to intervene, even to remove children from families, where there are concerns over child welfare, for example abuse or neglect.
That's why (in the UK) very child has the right to a proper, broad and balanced education and although parents can do this at home, they are required to do so to a suitable standard or the state can, quite rightly, intervene.
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State sex ed equals propaganda. Leave it to the parents, it's their job.
Parents often don't know how to handle the topic properly!
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Parents often don't know how to handle the topic properly!
And state sex ed is open to propaganda from all sorts of pressure groups.
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And state sex ed is open to propaganda from all sorts of pressure groups.
Surely though sex education would be taught, and monitored, according to a curriculum - just as for any other subject - so that once professional education planners sort out the details it isn't the case that pressure groups could exert undue influence.
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And state sex ed is open to propaganda from all sorts of pressure groups.
Such as? Be specific. Name names - tell us all who these "all sorts of pressure groups" are. Don't hide behind your waving hands - tell us.
The only pressure groups I can think of are religious organisations which have a vested interest in keeping kids ignorant - and at worst, in some cases pumping out misinformation or, since I'm a plain-speaking man who dislikes euphemism, outright lies.
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I don't know if homosexuality is covered in school sex ed these days, but it should be. Kids should be taught it is totally normal.
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It seems clear to me that the only people who oppose sex education by professionals, are the religious who wish to pursue an agenda to further their own ends rather than the best interests of children.
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It seems clear to me that the only people who oppose sex education by professionals, are the religious who wish to pursue an agenda to further their own ends rather than the best interests of children.
Got it in one.
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It seems clear to me that the only people who oppose sex education by professionals, are the religious who wish to pursue an agenda to further their own ends rather than the best interests of children.
That would appear to be the case, and only the more extreme religious people at that!
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I've only ever know one family take their child out of sex ed classes - they are Catholics.
My kids have gone through the standard sex ed classes and there's nothing remarkable about them. They didn't come home clutching propaganda in any form and the biggest issue appears to be the embarrassment of classmates.
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Such as? Be specific. Name names - tell us all who these "all sorts of pressure groups" are. Don't hide behind your waving hands - tell us.
The only pressure groups I can think of are religious organisations which have a vested interest in keeping kids ignorant - and at worst, in some cases pumping out misinformation or, since I'm a plain-speaking man who dislikes euphemism, outright lies.
Such as pro-abortion and pro-homosexual groups, teaching people immorality. We would need the same sort of laws as in Russia.
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Such as pro-abortion and pro-homosexual groups, teaching people immorality.
Both homosexuality and abortion are legal, as is right and proper (this is the case across the civilised world), and neither are immoral. You're typically forgetting that whatever the proportion of gay people is in the population (which nobody knows for sure) it will include school pupils - we have a couple of gay posters here who were, of course, at school once upon a time, even if unimaginably long ago ( ;) ). Young people can do without the warped erotophobia of theistic asshattery - in fact we can all do without that.
We would need the same sort of laws as in Russia.
Why, since that would turn us into the same sort of ignorant, backward, arse-end of Europe?
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Such as pro-abortion and pro-homosexual groups, teaching people immorality. We would need the same sort of laws as in Russia.
BIGOT >:( what is immoral about being a homosexual? For all you know Jesus could have been gay as the Bible specifically mentions he had a disciple whom he loved, and it didn't mention they were related!
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Such as pro-abortion and pro-homosexual groups, teaching people immorality. We would need the same sort of laws as in Russia.
No we don't.
Nothing is 'promoted' in sex ed. It is explained. There's a difference.
Your morals aren't those of the majority. You need to get used to that.
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Such as pro-abortion and pro-homosexual groups, teaching people immorality. We would need the same sort of laws as in Russia.
AD-o. Homosexuals exist.
You really need to come to terms with this.
I didn't suddenly wake up and think "Hey I'll be gay today" Its part of who I am. Ignoring it, calling it immoral, is a useless approach to the issue.
SO you propose laws that would limit my rights within society? What good purpose does that serve?
The laws in Russia have led to an increase in violence against gay people - is that what you want for me or for Leonard and for every other gay person?
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No we don't.
Nothing is 'promoted' in sex ed. It is explained. There's a difference.
Funny, isn't it, that these types always wibble on about the "promotion" of homosexuality typically when they come from actively proselytising, evangelical (in the broad sense), missionary religions who think they have a divine imprimatur for sharing their beliefs with everyone. Nowadays people can (often; not always) ignore such preachment; in past times it was very much otherwise.
Your morals aren't those of the majority. You need to get used to that.
Indeed.
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AD-o. Homosexuals exist.
You really need to come to terms with this.
I didn't suddenly wake up and think "Hey I'll be gay today" Its part of who I am. Ignoring it, calling it immoral, is a useless approach to the issue.
SO you propose laws that would limit my rights within society? What good purpose does that serve?
Probably gives him the warm and fuzzies thinking that the work of Holy Mother Church is done and being seen to be done, no doubt.
The laws in Russia have led to an increase in violence against gay people - is that what you want for me or for Leonard and for every other gay person?
I await a reply with interest.
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And also although the violence in Russia affects gays it also affects others mistaken for gay people:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/24/russia-st-patricks-day-attack-_n_5022961.html
Hope you are never out and about in Russia with even a hint of lavender on your person AD-o. You might find yourself on the receiving end of more than glass of vodka.
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Hope you are never out and about in Russia with even a hint of lavender on your person AD-o. You might find yourself on the receiving end of more than glass of vodka.
The glass, certainly.
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The laws have not caused people to attack gays. That's just nonsense and neither can it be proven. Laws that have fines a punishments don't cause people to attack other people.
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The laws have not caused people to attack gays. That's just nonsense and neither can it be proven.
Head. Sand.
Let me introduce you to each other.
Yea and the upsurge in violence in the Uk against gay people after Clause 28 was purely coincidental too.
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Head. Sand.
Let me introduce you to each other.
Coming from a person who doesn't believe Europe is becoming Islamicised. Being gay you ought to be very scared.
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The laws have not caused people to attack gays.
So, assuming that what you say is true, people are attacking gays in the numbers that they are because they were a bunch of knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing homophobic arseholes anyway, before the laws came along.
And this is the nation you want us to emulate, is it?
That's just nonsense and neither can it be proven.
Any point furnishing you with the evidence, giving that you don't come across as the swayed-by-evidence-and-reason type to say the least? I'm grieved to say that there's a lot of it.
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Coming from a person who doesn't believe Europe is becoming Islamicised. Being gay you should be very scared.
Racism, homophobia.
We just need a spot of misogyny and we have the three that become one.
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Racism, homophobia.
We just need a spot of misogyny and we have the three that become one.
... neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance ...
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Dear Floo,
Thank you.
https://www.gov.uk/national-curriculum/key-stage-3-and-4
But it all seems a bit woolly to me, religious education and sex education look like add ons to me.
Core subjects are Maths, English and science, what about Music, Einstein was a genius because he played the violin ( okay that's just a theory ) but music is universal, Music should be a core subject.
But where are the core subjects on right and wrong, Morals, Ethics, should they be left to parents.
So we leave kids to be at best fed misinformation, half-information and some downright dingbattery, and at worst left ignorant? Stunning answer there to giving kids an education.
The above author of that quote is absolutely right, we should not leave important subjects to amateurs, he also quoted someone on the quote thread that we should teach our kids to be sceptical, I think that is vitally important, question everything, no subject is taboo.
But where are the core subjects on right and wrong, it seems to me that we flit around these subjects, sex education should not be left to amateurs, neither should how we treat our fellow man/woman, far more important than Maths, English, science and sex education.
Gonnagle.
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Racism, homophobia.
We just need a spot of misogyny and we have the three that become one.
He can do that too.
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Dear Floo,
Thank you.
https://www.gov.uk/national-curriculum/key-stage-3-and-4
But it all seems a bit woolly to me, religious education and sex education look like add ons to me.
Core subjects are Maths, English and science, what about Music, Einstein was a genius because he played the violin ( okay that's just a theory ) but music is universal, Music should be a core subject.
But where are the core subjects on right and wrong, Morals, Ethics, should they be left to parents.
The above author of that quote is absolutely right, we should not leave important subjects to amateurs, he also quoted someone on the quote thread that we should teach our kids to be sceptical, I think that is vitally important, question everything, no subject is taboo.
But where are the core subjects on right and wrong, it seems to me that we flit around these subjects, sex education should not be left to amateurs, neither should how we treat our fellow man/woman, far more important than Maths, English, science and sex education.
Gonnagle.
If taught properly the humanities are about how we treat our fellow human beings up a greater or lesser extent. Good Eng Lit and drama too. Any subject that deals with the interactions of people teaches - or at least illustrates - morality.
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Racism, homophobia.
We just need a spot of misogyny and we have the three that become one.
Keep on burying your heads in the sand. The first step in Islamicisation is numerical advantage. This is being done via mass immigration. Gays ought to be very scared indeed.
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And Wagon Wheels are smaller than they used to be when I were a lad, and then the sky falls in. Oh noez!!111!!!11111!
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Keep on burying your heads in the sand. The first step in Islamicisation is numerical advantage. This is being done via mass immigration. Gays ought to be very scared indeed.
You are a highly unpleasant BIGOT. Maybe you should consider the terrible sins of the Catholic church over the centuries before turning your ire on Islam! >:(
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Keep on burying your heads in the sand. The first step in Islamicisation is numerical advantage. This is being done via mass immigration. Gays ought to be very scared indeed.
You are just deflecting. We are not discussing Islamification. Anyway from your attitude to gay people I would have thought you would have welcomed it.
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You are a highly unpleasant BIGOT. Maybe you should consider the terrible sins of the Catholic church over the centuries before turning your ire on Islam! >:(
He's not a member of that crew any more - he found another church a couple of years ago which offers the final, absolute and immutable truth like that one used to, apparently ::)
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He's not a member of that crew any more - he's found another church which offers the final, absolute and immutable truth like that one used to a couple of years ago, apparently ::)
I thought the Orthodox bunch were a branch of the Catholic church?
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I thought the Orthodox bunch were a branch of the Catholic church?
He will be most amused by that, as far as it's possible for him to be so :D
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I thought the Orthodox bunch were a branch of the Catholic church?
Oh, thank you, Floo. :)
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Dear Floo,
I thought the Orthodox bunch were a branch of the Catholic church?
How to win friends and gain influence, I think Ad Orientem will be your friend for life now :o :o
Gonnagle.
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He will be most amused by that, as far as it's possible for him to be so :D
Oh well if I have got it wrong no doubt he will correct me. However, maybe he should consider a different belief system, because the one he has isn't exactly doing much for him, if his unpleasant posts are a reflection of his personality!
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Ad_O,
First you say:
And state sex ed is open to propaganda from all sorts of pressure groups.
And then you suggest examples:
Such as pro-abortion and pro-homosexual groups, teaching people immorality. We would need the same sort of laws as in Russia.
which are surely not pressure groups as they are the norm in western society.
Surely then anti-abortion and anti-homosexuality can be much more accurately described as pressure groups.
Hence, to follow your own logic, you seem to be saying that state sex ed is open to propaganda(which you don't think is a good thing), and therefore you obviously should be against any influences by the anti-abortion and the anti-homosexuality lobby.
Either that, or you need to rethink your arguments. :)
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Oh well if I have got it wrong no doubt he will correct me. However, maybe he should consider a different belief system
Give it a couple more years and I'm sure he will.
Unfortunately, while the minor, superficial differences chop and change, the ugly and unpleasant beliefs do not.
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And state sex ed is open to propaganda from all sorts of pressure groups.
Actually the most prevalent sex ed propaganda in state schools is the restrictive and narrow curriculum based on religious dogma that is allowed to pass as sex education in many faith schools, most notably catholic schools where what is taught is clearly biased and incomplete.
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From what I have heard, there is no agenda other than giving correct information, in state sex ed. Nothing is promoted, the idea is to be truthful and to help youngsters stay safe - which includes not having a sexual relationship before they are ready and being respectful towards the feelings and the bodies of others (& their own). Sorry that sounds clumsy.
When I was younger, heterosexual relationships - leading to marriage - were actually promoted. The vast majority of people were and always will be heterosexual but homosexuality must be discussed otherwise people will have odd ideas about gays, not to mention being overly, almost morbidly, curious.
It all seems quite healthy nowadays, people accept others for who they are and don't dwell on it.
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From what I have heard, there is no agenda other than giving correct information, in state sex ed. Nothing is promoted, the idea is to be truthful and to help youngsters stay safe - which includes not having a sexual relationship before they are ready and being respectful towards the feelings and the bodies of others (& their own). Sorry that sounds clumsy.
When I was younger, heterosexual relationships - leading to marriage - were actually promoted. The vast majority of people were and always will be heterosexual but homosexuality must be discussed otherwise people will have odd ideas about gays, not to mention being overly, almost morbidly, curious.
It all seems quite healthy nowadays, people accept others for who they are and don't dwell on it.
Oy gevalt. If only we could have more believers like this.
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From what I have heard, there is no agenda other than giving correct information, in state sex ed. Nothing is promoted, the idea is to be truthful and to help youngsters stay safe - which includes not having a sexual relationship before they are ready and being respectful towards the feelings and the bodies of others (& their own). Sorry that sounds clumsy.
When I was younger, heterosexual relationships - leading to marriage - were actually promoted. The vast majority of people were and always will be heterosexual but homosexuality must be discussed otherwise people will have odd ideas about gays, not to mention being overly, almost morbidly, curious.
It all seems quite healthy nowadays, people accept others for who they are and don't dwell on it.
I think that is correct - and indeed a curriculum which deliberately choses not to provide information either relating to differing sexuality or methods of contraception or abortion etc is clearly guilty of promulgating a biased agenda via omission.
So to use an alternative example, were there to be discussion of political views within a school curriculum that discussed all right wing ideologies by (by design) omitted to discuss left wing ideologies that would be clearly biased and rightly be seen to be 'promoting' right wing view points. The same is true for sex education - it needs to be factual and comprehensive and not driven by ideological whims.
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Oy gevalt. If only we could have more believers like this.
To be fair - I think a lot of believers do think like that.
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To be fair - I think a lot of believers do think like that.
True - it's only the noxious ones who make the noise and get the attention, I guess.
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Hey Zippy ;D ;D
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Hello everybody :)
For Floo's benefit, the RC is a splinter group from the Orthodox. They have not been in communion since 1054. To consider one to be a form of the other is usually the mark of Protestant non conformists.
By all means teach kids about abortion-but not careful words about "choices", teach them graphically what the process involves.
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Hello everybody :)
For Floo's benefit, the RC is a splinter group from the Orthodox. They have not been in communion since 1054.
And as we all know, that's nearly eleven o'clock.
By all means teach kids about abortion-but not careful words about "choices"
Give that it is a choice, why not?
teach them graphically what the process involves.
Exactly what a termination involves depends on the stage of pregnancy. Obviously.
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Hello everybody :)
For Floo's benefit, the RC is a splinter group from the Orthodox. They have not been in communion since 1054. To consider one to be a form of the other is usually the mark of Protestant non conformists.
By all means teach kids about abortion-but not careful words about "choices", teach them graphically what the process involves.
That's right - scare the living shit out of the (other people's - you will do it to your own before they get to school) children and thus make bloody sure that they follow the "Christinan" way. As if having to decide to have an abortion was not traumatic enough!
This is an attitude that Ad_O would be proud of! An Orthodox attitude and, Humph, your religious prejudices are showing.
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Give it a couple more years and I'm sure he will.
Unfortunately, while the minor, superficial differences chop and change, the ugly and unpleasant beliefs do not.
There you are with the snide comments again.
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There you are with the snide comments again.
You cleary haver no idea of what the word "snide" means - his comments were not "snide", they were open and blatant - oh, and true!
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There you are with the snide comments again.
It's a speciality.
Massive irony and witheringly sarcastic put-downs are reserved for special occasions.
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It's a speciality.
Massive irony and witheringly sarcastic put-downs are reserved for special occasions.
Neither irony nor sarcasm are your forté.
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Neither irony nor sarcasm are your forté.
Yeah, right.
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Neither irony nor sarcasm are your forté.
As intelligence and humanity are not yours!
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Hello everybody :)
For Floo's benefit, the RC is a splinter group from the Orthodox. They have not been in communion since 1054. To consider one to be a form of the other is usually the mark of Protestant non conformists.
By all means teach kids about abortion-but not careful words about "choices", teach them graphically what the process involves.
Every woman should have the absolute choice to abort an unwanted pregnancy in the early stages. However, it is good to teach kids that unwanted pregnancies should be avoided by taking proper precautions when having sex. It is also good to teach kids that they shouldn't jump into bed with someone until they are mature enough to have sex in a responsible manner!
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As intelligence and humanity are not yours!
Even if I had just a spec it would be more than yours.
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I thought the Orthodox bunch were a branch of the Catholic church?
That's because you're an idiot.
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Even if I had just a spec it would be more than yours.
Just a spec? I don't think you're seeing this properly.
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That's because you're an idiot.
And you aren't? Btw your avatar appears to feature two guys snogging! ;D
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Just a spec? I don't think you're seeing this properly.
An iphone plus sausage fingers equals lots of mistakes.
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An iphone plus sausage fingers equals lots of mistakes.
That's the explanation for the spelling errors. What the explanation for the toxic beliefs and rebarbative opinions may be is anyone's guess.
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That's the explanation for the spelling errors. What the explanation for the toxic beliefs and rebarbative opinions may be is anyone's guess.
My beliefs and opinions are absolutely fine. It is yours, I would argue, which are toxic and rebarbative. That you have shown on many occasions, especially your complete disregard for the sanctity of life.
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My beliefs and opinions are absolutely fine.
Not to me they're not, or indeed to any of the numerous people here who have similarly criticised and challenged them. (That's quite a list). Rhiannon's point about your living in an alternate reality, true to begin with, has just been given further resounding confirmation.
It is yours, I would argue, which are toxic and rebarbative.
Go ahead and argue it, then.
That you have shown on many occasions, especially your complete disregard for the sanctity of life.
Unless you are an absolute pacifist then you are no more than selective about this sanctity of life business. Some of it sacred sometimes, etc.
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My beliefs and opinions are absolutely fine. It is yours, I would argue, which are toxic and rebarbative. That you have shown on many occasions, especially your complete disregard for the sanctity of life.
And the mother's life?
Oh, I forgot, the mother is a woman and therefore, in your toxic belief, has no more value than it does in the Islam that you hate so much! Mainly, of course, you hate it because it actually shares some of your more toxic values.
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My beliefs and opinions are absolutely fine. It is yours, I would argue, which are toxic and rebarbative. That you have shown on many occasions, especially your complete disregard for the sanctity of life.
Your beliefs and opinions, where homosexuality is concerned, are SICK! >:(
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Your beliefs and opinions, where homosexuality is concerned, are SICK! >:(
Get him onto Jews and Judaism, it'll blow your mind.
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Your beliefs and opinions, where homosexuality is concerned, are SICK! >:(
You're the sick one.
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Your beliefs and opinions, where homosexuality is concerned, are SICK! >:(
. . . and abortion, and women's rights!
And I agree with you point about this idiot's avatar, but he says it is a "brotherly kiss" between two apostles or saints and I am not so sure that that they were not as happy up the chocolate highway as some modern priests.
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And the mother's life?
Oh, I forgot, the mother is a woman and therefore, in your toxic belief, has no more value than it does in the Islam that you hate so much! Mainly, of course, you hate it because it actually shares some of your more toxic values.
On the contrary, all human life is sacred. Islam I dislike because it is a false religion whose main conversion tactic is the sword, something which it received from its founder.
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On the contrary, all human life is sacred. Islam I dislike because it is a false religion whose main conversion tactic is the sword, something which it received from its founder.
And yet you support the murderer Putin.
Quaint.
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You're the sick one.
I see you've been to Cleese-Palin school of argumentation.
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On the contrary, all human life is sacred. Islam I dislike because it is a false religion whose main conversion tactic is the sword, something which it received from its founder.
OK - so one has to die - baby or mother - how does your belief decide which dies or if both are to die in some cases?
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And yet you support the murderer Putin.
Quaint.
Depends what you mean by "support". If you were to say "prefer" in relation to our western secular leaders who are nothing more than a bunch of liars and fraudsters then you might be closer to the truth. He at least acknowledges the Church and has vowed to protect Christians in the Middle-East and is opposed to American militarism. And who has he murdered?
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And yet you support the murderer Putin.
Quaint.
An ex-KGB thug and murderer he may be but he's a resolutely manly mannish male man's man with more Y chromosomes than he knows what to do with and absolutely no homoerotic overtones of any kind in any way whateververever.
Fact.
http://goo.gl/hy2pK4
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OK - so one has to die - baby or mother - how does your belief decide which dies or if both are to die in some cases?
It's not a case of having to determine who has to die but rather who you are able to save.
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Depends what you mean by "support". If you were to say "prefer" in relation to our western secular leaders who are nothing more than a bunch of liars, fraudsters then you might be closer to the truth. He at least acknowledges the Church and has vowed to protect Christians in the Middle-East. And who has he murdered?
The list of wars in itself is enough to qualify him for the title murderer - particularly with his specatacular disregard for international law.
And he isn't a liar and a fraudster because he doesn't have extensive business interests in the biggest companies in Russia - Oh wait he does and we all know that as a model for non-corruption Russia leads the world. Please take off those rose-tinted spectacles.
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On the contrary, all human life is sacred. Islam I dislike because it is a false religion whose main conversion tactic is the sword, something which it received from its founder.
It is no more false than your version of religion, which comes over as highly unpleasant if your bigoted views are a reflection of it!
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Anyhow I'm still waiting for an answer to the following:
SO you propose laws that would limit my rights within society? What good purpose does that serve?
No rush - just wondered, you understand.
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It's not a case of having to determine who has to die but rather who you are able to save.
You gutless coward - by chosing who to save you condemn the other to death but you haven't got the moral courage to admit it.
I hope you are condemned to the deepest depths of the Hell that you God is so proud of for your inhumanity.
You disgust me - to say one thing and to do the other = a hypocrite, but I am ending this conversation, and any others with you before I get another Moderator's warning for sniping!
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Anyhow I'm still waiting for an answer to the following:
SO you propose laws that would limit my rights within society? What good purpose does that serve?
No rush - just wondered, you understand.
No one is limiting what you get up to in your own bedroom, just what we teach young children.
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Kids should be taught that masturbation, in private, is far better than jumping into bed with someone before they are mature enough to handle a relationship wisely.
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That's right - scare the living shit out of the (other people's - you will do it to your own before they get to school) children and thus make bloody sure that they follow the "Christinan" way. As if having to decide to have an abortion was not traumatic enough!
What an ignorant, over-emotional, biased attitude. How do you think girls feel when they see the videos of child birth in sex education classes. Every girl I have ever spoken to, including my kids, were scared shitless by watching childbirth videos, but we are given the honest facts, not deception - it's called getting an education and making an informed choice.
Kids should be educated about the biological reality of abortions, the same way we were given the opportunity to dissect organs and animals and watch childbirth videos.
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You gutless coward - by chosing who to save you condemn the other to death but you haven't got the moral courage to admit it.
I hope you are condemned to the deepest depths of the Hell that you God is so proud of for your inhumanity.
You disgust me - to say one thing and to do the other = a hypocrite, but I am ending this conversation, and any others with you before I get another Moderator's warning for sniping!
So you won't even allow for a reply? Very good of you. I always knew you were a joke.
The hypothetical scenario was that is by saving one the other dies how do you choose. I gave a answer: the one who you are able to save. It would be wrong to do nothing and both die.
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Get him onto Jews and Judaism, it'll blow your mind.
Listen, pal! You don't know what I believe.
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Listen, pal! You don't know what I believe.
I observe and draw conclusions from what I observe.
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No one is limiting what you get up to in your own bedroom, just what we teach young children.
And what is it that you want to teach young people about what gay people do?
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I observe and draw conclusions from what I observe.
Then you're not very good at doing that.
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And what is it that you want to teach young people about what gay people do?
Nothing.
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Listen, pal! You don't know what I believe.
Yes we do - you never tiure of telling us what you believe - and we get a bloody good laugh out of most of it! And get physically sick at the rest of it!
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Then you're not very good at doing that.
If you want to change the conclusions, change the things you write.
You could start by explaining why we shouldn't teach kids (some of whom, as a matter of simple statistics, will be gay) about homosexuality.
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Nothing.
And that's a good idea how?
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That's pagan morality for you. In otherwords, it doesn't exist.
I realise the questions that you can't or won't answer are piling up, but what's not moral about that?
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Moderator:
The tone of the thread seems to have deteriorated, which is a shame for those wanting to discuss a serious issue.
Therefore I'm going to remove a selection of posts and then unlock the thread, and if this recurs those involved can expect further action.
Update: o.k. that has been done, so can we focus on the issue and not on excessively personal matters or on-going spats.
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NOT when it is in pusuit of a religious agenda of manipulation of facts.
Over-emotional? So are parents of girls who have died or suicied because they have been refused abortions.
How is it manipulation of facts to inform people that abortion is available and then also give them the information on the different procedures at different stages of the foetus' life, as well as give them information on the possible physical, psychological and emotional effects of an abortion - no doubt some people will state that on balance it was a relief, others will express regret, some will have had bleeding and would have required after-care. Which part of this do you feel is not educational and something that should be taken into account when making a choice? What are you suggesting - that if girls knew the reality of abortion they would choose not to have one? Watching child birth videos hasn't seem to have had that effect.
I don't think education policies should be decided on the basis of a few people committing suicide due to lack of access to abortions.
This is one of then reasons I give up Christianity and have serious doubts about Islam. Idoe;logy firmly rooted in a past century when things were very different to today.
Your Gods are to blame for most sexual problems - if the hadn't wanted people to do sex as soon as their hormones stirred, they, the gods, should not have made acts of sex so pleasurable!
But I forget - your Gods are not responsible for any of humanity's weaknesses only their strengths - what a load of shit!
Regardless of religion, girls are going to feel upset if they have sex and then get pregnant when they don't feel financially or emotionally ready to cope with parenthood, especially if they have no parenting support. They are also often going to feel bad about destroying the potential of their child because they have hormones and maternal instincts that affect their emotional state.
Apart from hormones and family support affecting their emotional state and their choices, their cultural conditioning and emotional attachment to others, their capacity for hard work and functioning on little sleep, will influence how girls feel about being pregnant during particular stages in their life.
No point hiding all this information from them if you are serious about giving girls the facts and an education.
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Our youngest girl (4) was at home from play group (school didn't start until 5 in those days) as she had whooping cough. I allowed her to watch the school's programmes on TV, but as I was busy doing the chores didn't pay close attention to what she was watching. By the time I went to check on her I discovered the 'where babies come from' topic had been well covered! She couldn't wait for her older sisters to get in from school so she could give them a blow by blow account! ;D
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I realise the questions that you can't or won't answer are piling up, but what's not moral about that?
I answered all the questions. They just weren't to your liking.
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I answered all the questions. They just weren't to your liking.
Feel free to point out the answers to #9, #25, #36, #105, #106, #107 ...
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If you want to change the conclusions, change the things you write.
You could start by explaining why we shouldn't teach kids (some of whom, as a matter of simple statistics, will be gay) about homosexuality.
I already answered that, because we shouldn't be teaching children immorality.
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I already answered that, because we shouldn't be teaching children immorality.
Homosexuality isn't immoral though.
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How is it manipulation of facts to inform people that abortion is available and then also give them the information on the different procedures at different stages of the foetus' life, as well as give them information on the possible physical, psychological and emotional effects of an abortion - no doubt some people will state that on balance it was a relief, others will express regret, some will have had bleeding and would have required after-care. Which part of this do you feel is not educational and something that should be taken into account when making a choice? What are you suggesting - that if girls knew the reality of abortion they would choose not to have one? Watching child birth videos hasn't seem to have had that effect.
I don't think education policies should be decided on the basis of a few people committing suicide due to lack of access to abortions.
Regardless of religion, girls are going to feel upset if they have sex and then get pregnant when they don't feel financially or emotionally ready to cope with parenthood, especially if they have no parenting support. They are also often going to feel bad about destroying the potential of their child because they have hormones and maternal instincts that affect their emotional state.
Apart from hormones and family support affecting their emotional state and their choices, their cultural conditioning and emotional attachment to others, their capacity for hard work and functioning on little sleep, will influence how girls feel about being pregnant during particular stages in their life.
No point hiding all this information from them if you are serious about giving girls the facts and an education.
I was referring to the proposition that sex education include graphic images of abortions and aborted fśtuses in order to scare the girls so that they would never even consider abortion - something which I find to be beyond the pale whenbased upon religious mores.
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Homosexuality isn't immoral though.
Homosexual acts are.
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Homosexual acts are.
No, they're not immoral either.
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No, they're not immoral either.
Says you and the spirit of the age. However, the morality of both is highly questionable.
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Homosexuality is NORMAL, and so is consenting adult homosexual sex.
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Says you and the spirit of the age.
Yup. Progress is the term.
However, the morality of both is highly questionable.
No it isn't.
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Says you and the spirit of the age. However, the morality of both is highly questionable.
Nope.
Have you looked at the thread on judgement? You really should.
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I was referring to the proposition that sex education include graphic images of abortions and aborted fśtuses in order to scare the girls so that they would never even consider abortion - something which I find to be beyond the pale whenbased upon religious mores.
Graphic images are informative and yes they can be scary. Have you watched any childbirth videos recently? Would you suggest that kids should not watch them because all the tearing and bleeding of the vagina, the moaning /screaming accompanying contractions, the gunk, the mess etc would mean they would never consider childbirth?
My recollection is most girls resolved not to give birth immediately after watching the informative video, then as they got older they avoided thinking about the blood and gunk of the informative video, and then as they got older still decided to have kids despite getting even more information about labour and child birth that was not in the informative video.
Why would you think the response to graphic images of abortions would be different? Might even encourage people to be more careful in their use of contraception or they might factor it into their other decisions about having sex - in other words they would be making an informed choice.
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ao,
Homosexual acts are.
And you think that your personal moral opinion on that should be everyone else's morality too why exactly?
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ao,
And you think that your personal moral opinion on that should be everyone else's morality too why exactly?
Because it is based upon his warped version of Christian ethics.
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Why would you think the response to graphic images of abortions would be different? Might even encourage people to be more careful in their use of contraception or they might factor it into their other decisions about having sex - in other words they would be making an informed choice.
Yet most of the Christian anti-abortion lot are also anti-birth control, you know, if you don't want to get pregnant don't do sex and if you get sexually frustated don't masturbate either 'cos God doesn't like you doing that!
Oh, and we are going to do absolutely everything we can, including scaring the living shit out of you, to make damn sure that you don't do any of the things that we don't like the idea of you doing 'cos our god, for whose existence we have no proof whatsoever, doesn't think that we should let you.
He made sex really really pleasurable to test you to see if you are as strong (for strong in this contect read stupid) as we are.
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Owls,
Yet most of the Christian anti-abortion lot are also anti-birth control, you know, if you don't want to get pregnant don't do sex and if you get sexually frustated don't masturbate either 'cos God doesn't like you doing that!
Oddly too it's the evangelical right in the US who are most "pro-life" who are also the most pro executing prisoners in jails.
Go figure eh?
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Owls,
Oddly too it's the evangelical right in the US who are most "pro-life" who are also the most pro executing prisoners in jails.
Go figure eh?
Not surprising. Heretics, eh!
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Because it is based upon his warped version of Christian ethics.
The scriptures are quite clear. You don't have to ask me.
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ao,
The scriptures are quite clear. You don't have to ask me.
1. No they're not. You can find other gobbets that contradict the bit on which you rest your bigotry.
2. Why in any case pick that bit rather focus your ire on, say, the shellfish eaters of the mixed fibre wearer?
3. Oh, and that you think the scriptures to be an inerrant guide to moral rectitude is in any case just your personal opinion on the matter. Why on earth would you think that the children of those who don't share that personal opinion should have their education determined by your personal opinion nonetheless?
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Yet most of the Christian anti-abortion lot are also anti-birth control, you know, if you don't want to get pregnant don't do sex and if you get sexually frustated don't masturbate either 'cos God doesn't like you doing that!
Oh, and we are going to do absolutely everything we can, including scaring the living shit out of you, to make damn sure that you don't do any of the things that we don't like the idea of you doing 'cos our god, for whose existence we have no proof whatsoever, doesn't think that we should let you.
He made sex really really pleasurable to test you to see if you are as strong (for strong in this contect read stupid) as we are.
You seem very obsessed with being denied the pleasures of sex - for you no other perspective appears to exist. If you thought about something other than your own sex drive you might notice the misery of girls pressured into having sex when they don't feel ready or pressurised to act in a sexual way because other people like the idea of them being available for sex. You have a very biased agenda if all you want to criticise are pressures on people not to have sex.
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ao,
1. No they're not. You can find other gobbets that contradict the bit on which you rest your bigotry.
2. Why in any case pick that bit rather focus your ire on, say, the shellfish eaters of the mixed fibre wearer?
3. Oh, and that you think the scriptures to be an inerrant guide to moral rectitude is in any case just your personal opinion on the matter. Why on earth would you think that the children of those who don't share that personal opinion should have their education determined by your personal opinion nonetheless?
1. It is clear. Don't lie.
2. You don't have to go to the law of Moses, which has been abolished, to make the case. It's there in the New Testament.
3. Because Europe is Christian.
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You seem very obsessed with being denied the pleasures of sex - for you no other perspective appears to exist. If you thought about something other than your own sex drive you might notice the misery of girls pressured into having sex when they don't feel ready or pressurised to act in a sexual way because other people like the idea of them being available for sex. You have a very biased agenda if all you want to criticise are pressures on people not to have sex.
Don't be stupid.
I want everyone to be educated on the pitfalls of sexual activity of any kind.
What I do not want is for it to be done by the use of fear or terror.
You are the one who wants to use blood and guts to pout girls off sex in the hope that they will grow out of the fear!
My own daughter was the subject of a sexual assault so don't lecture me on girls being ppessured into sex that they do not want,
Get this though your skull - I am not in anyway against sex education; what I am against is the methods used - like fear - which you seem to find perfectly acceptable. I suppose you support FGM as a form od chastity enfoircement.
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ao,
1. It is clear. Don't lie.
No it's not. Don't lie.
You can find something in Leviticus that supports your bigotry, and you can find various other quotes that don't. The choice is yours.
2. You don't have to go to the law of Moses, which has been abolished, to make the case. It's there in the New Testament.
Naturally you'll tell us where then, and while you're about it perhaps you'll share you reason for clinging to the homophobic bit but leaving well alone the bits that don't suit you?
3. Because Europe is Christian.
1. Actually, most countries in Europe are secular.
2. There are plenty of Christians who don't share your bigotry. Are they the wrong sort of Christians then?
3. It may have escaped your notice, but for the most part European education systems don't teach miracle stories as facts, ancient tribal beliefs as moral philosophy or claims of the hereafter as science. Why then would you expect them to pick just this one part of your personal bigotry to inform the curricula and to ignore the rest?
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,
. Why then would you expect them to pick just this one part of your personal bigotry to inform the curricula and to ignore the rest?
Because it is Christianity and the normal rules that apply to everyone else do not apply to it.
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Don't be stupid.
I want everyone to be educated on the pitfalls of sexual activity of any kind.
What I do not want is for it to be done by the use of fear or terror.
You are the one who wants to use blood and guts to pout girls off sex in the hope that they will grow out of the fear!
My own daughter was the subject of a sexual assault so don't lecture me on girls being ppessured into sex that they do not want,
Get this though your skull - I am not in anyway against sex education; what I am against is the methods used - like fear - which you seem to find perfectly acceptable. I suppose you support FGM as a form od chastity enfoircement.
Except I did not say anything about wanting to put girls off sex. I said educate them to make informed choices about all the potential consequences of sex. Whereas your posts seem immaturely obsessed with only one aspect of sex - the pleasure - while ignoring the reality that sex is not just about pleasure. Why do you want to hide the reality of abortions from the people who might actually have to go through them? What's your agenda?
And what's with all the melodramatic posturing about fear? What do you think girls feel when they look at a video of child birth in sex education classes? Do you imagine they clap their hands with joy and go I can't wait to lie around with my legs spread open while people stick their hands inside of me, while ripping a very sensitive part of my anatomy, bleeding like a stuck pig and quite possibly pooing on the table while I push out something approaching the size of a large melon?
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3. Because Europe is Christian.
What year is it where you live?
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Except I did not say anything about wanting to put girls off sex. I said educate them to make informed choices about all the potential consequences of sex. Whereas your posts seem immaturely obsessed with only one aspect of sex - the pleasure - while ignoring the reality that sex is not just about pleasure. Why do you want to hide the reality of abortions from the people who might actually have to go through them? What's your agenda?
And what's with all the melodramatic posturing about fear? What do you think girls feel when they look at a video of child birth in sex education classes? Do you imagine they clap their hands with joy and go I can't wait to lie around with my legs spread open while people stick their hands inside of me, while ripping a very sensitive part of my anatomy, bleeding like a stuck pig and quite possibly pooing on the table while I push out something approaching the size of a large melon?
I give up - you are as bad as the Christians - you just will not listen!
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Shakes,
What year is it where you live?
Or more pertinently, which century?
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Shakes,
Or more pertinently, which century?
Anywhere between the 1st and the 15th (approximately)!
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.......you might notice the misery of girls pressured into having sex when they don't feel ready or pressurised to act in a sexual way because other people like the idea of them being available for sex.
Well said!
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Gabs,
And what's with all the melodramatic posturing about fear? What do you think girls feel when they look at a video of child birth in sex education classes? Do you imagine they clap their hands with joy and go I can't wait to lie around with my legs spread open while people stick their hands inside of me, while ripping a very sensitive part of my anatomy, bleeding like a stuck pig and quite possibly pooing on the table while I push out something approaching the size of a large melon?
Dear me - I was there for the births of all four of our children, and that's not a description that resonates for me particularly (though for one of them Mrs b did squeeze my hand hard and it really hurt. Did she apologise? Did she eckers-like...).
Anyways, I digress - isn't this "this is childbirth then girls" approach as narrow in its way as no sex ed at all? I heartily support sex ed, but there's a lot more to having children than the birth itself I'd have thought and surely sex ed should reflect that too shouldn't it?
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No it's not. Don't lie.
You can find something in Leviticus that supports your bigotry, and you can find various other quotes that don't. The choice is yours.
As I said, you don't have to go to the law of Moses to make the case. The New Testament does just as good a job. Try Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 1 Timothy 1:9-10 and Jude 1:7. It is beyond dispute for those who are not ignorant of the scriptures.
Naturally you'll tell us where then, and while you're about it perhaps you'll share you reason for clinging to the homophobic bit but leaving well alone the bits that don't suit you?
No one is clinging on to any bit of it. The New Testament tells us enough about the immorality of homosexual acts without having to cling onto any part of the law. The law of Moses was abolished when Christ died on the cross as the Apostle tells us, "but now in Christ Jesus, you, who some time were afar off, are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and breaking down the middle wall of partition, the enmities in his flesh: making void the law of commandments contained in decrees; that he might make the two in himself into one new man, making peace; and might reconcile both to God in one body by the cross, killing the enmities in himself" and, "when you were dead in your sins, and the uncircumcision of your flesh; he hath quickened together with him, forgiving you all offences: blotting out the handwriting of the decree that was against us, which was contrary to us. And he hath taken the same out of the way, fastening it to the cross".
1. Actually, most countries in Europe are secular.
Most states at the governmental level are apostate, the natural and inevitable result of the Deformation. A different thing.
2. There are plenty of Christians who don't share your bigotry. Are they the wrong sort of Christians then?
They are Christians led astray by the devil, being enamoured of the spirit of the age, who call bad good and good bad.
3. It may have escaped your notice, but for the most part European education systems don't teach miracle stories as facts, ancient tribal beliefs as moral philosophy or claims of the hereafter as science. Why then would you expect them to pick just this one part of your personal bigotry to inform the curricula and to ignore the rest?
That homosexual acts are so contrary to the purpose of sex is a clue.
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I don't accept any of the nonsense that you quote from the bible.
I want to know how you think it benefits society to discriminate against gay people?
You have not answered this.
You have failed to grasp that there are gay kids who suffer becuase of the kind of ignorance you are currently espousing.
Is that what Christians do - make others suffer because they are different in one small insignificant way?
You should be ashamed of yourself.
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I don't accept any of the nonsense that you quote from the bible.
I want to know how you think it benefits society to discriminate against gay people?
You have not answered this.
You have failed to grasp that there are gay kids who suffer becuase of the kind of ignorance you are currently espousing.
Is that what Christians do - make others suffer because they are different in one small insignificant way?
You should be ashamed of yourself.
Read his posts again, Trent, he is actually proud of himself and his Orthodoxy - if he were any more proud he would burst!
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As I said, you don't have to go to the law of Moses to make the case. The New Testament does just as good a job. Try Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 1 Timothy 1:9-10 and Jude 1:7. It is beyond dispute for those who are not ignorant of the scriptures.
No one is clinging on to any bit of it. The New Testament tells us enough about the immorality of homosexual acts without having to cling onto any part of the law. The law of Moses was abolished when Christ died on the cross as the Apostle tells us, "but now in Christ Jesus, you, who some time were afar off, are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and breaking down the middle wall of partition, the enmities in his flesh: making void the law of commandments contained in decrees; that he might make the two in himself into one new man, making peace; and might reconcile both to God in one body by the cross, killing the enmities in himself" and, "when you were dead in your sins, and the uncircumcision of your flesh; he hath quickened together with him, forgiving you all offences: blotting out the handwriting of the decree that was against us, which was contrary to us. And he hath taken the same out of the way, fastening it to the cross".
Most states at the governmental level are apostate, the natural and inevitable result of the Deformation. A different thing.
They are Christians led astray by the devil, being enamoured of the spirit of the age, who call bad good and good bad.
That homosexual acts are so contrary to the purpose of sex is a clue.
The Bible is WRONG on the topic of homosexuality, as it is wrong about many other things! The documents making up that book were written a very long time ago, we now live in the 21st century where decent people have an enlightened approach to homosexuality! I get annoyed when bigots use the Bible as an excuse for their nastiness!
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Dear ad o,
That Corinthians 6:9.10 is a cracker
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
Fornicator, guilty, drunkard, guilty more times than fornicator but not for want of trying, thief, guilty, covetous, guilty, effeminate, guilty, looks like I will not be inheriting the Kingdom.
What about you old son, 7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
The above quotes are from the Gospels, not Romans, not Corinthians, not Timothy or Jude, go and read the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ not his followers.
Gonnagle.
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Nice post there, Gonners.
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Nice post there, Gonners.
It is indeed.
In one word - compassionate.
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Dear ad o,
That Corinthians 6:9.10 is a cracker
Fornicator, guilty, drunkard, guilty more times than fornicator but not for want of trying, thief, guilty, covetous, guilty, effeminate, guilty, looks like I will not be inheriting the Kingdom.
What about you old son,
The above quotes are from the Gospels, not Romans, not Corinthians, not Timothy or Jude, go and read the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ not his followers.
Gonnagle.
Either you accept all the scriptures or none. Nowhere does our Lord say we are to approve of sin. The Lord says through the prophet Isaias "Woe to you that call evil good, and good evil: that put darkness for light, and light for darkness: that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter".
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Either you accept all the scriptures or none. Nowhere does our Lord say we are to approve of sin. The Lord says through the prophet Isaias "Woe to you that call evil good, and good evil: that put darkness for light, and light for darkness: that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter".
He never once condemned homosexuality, possibly because he was gay himself!
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He never once condemned homosexuality, possibly because he was gay himself!
True! The condemnation of homosexuality came not from Jesus, but from self-styled conveyors of the word of "God".
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One has to wonder at the self deception necessary to perform the kind of mental acrobatics on display that justify turning on others when you should perhaps be concentrating on the beam in your eye.
Enjoy a drink - justifiable.
A little gamble - justifiable.
Show love for someone of the same sex - the world will end.
You have seriously screwed priorities.
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He never once condemned homosexuality, possibly because he was gay himself!
Of course you would like to think that but in reality that is just laughable and something no one takes seriously.
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True! The condemnation of homosexuality came not from Jesus, but from self-styled conveyors of the word of "God".
It comes from God himself.
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Of course you would like to think that but in reality that is just laughable and something no one takes seriously.
Then "no one" should try being less idiotically dogmatic. It is entirely possible.
What are your reasons for not allowing the possibility?
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Then "no one" should try being less idiotically dogmatic. It is entirely possible.
What are your reasons for not allowing the possibility?
Because he would have been sinful, yet he was sinless.
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Because he would have been sinful, yet he was sinless.
The 'sinful' you are talking about is only according to a very few Bible texts written, as I said, by self-styled interpreters of their "God's" wishes.
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The 'sinful' you are talking about is only according to a very few Bible texts written, as I said, by self-styled interpreters of their "God's" wishes.
The Holy Spirit, who spoke through them, is God. You're making a false dichotomy.
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The Holy Spirit, who spoke through them, is God. You're making a false dichotomy.
So you believe anybody who says they are guided by the HS?
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Dear ad o,
Sorry mate, friend, you can quote all the Saints and all the Prophets you want, you can try and twist the words spoken by Our Lord, you can point to Old Testament, you can point to words spoken by his followers, me, I am a simple Christian, I follow the words of Christ, Christ trumps any Saint or Prophet.
I am not much of a Bible thumper but this is where you should start every morning, it then stops being about them ( whoever them is ) and becomes all about you, a life time of searching your own soul, I am to old now to be chucking stones, Arthritis has stepped in. ;)
Matthew 22:36-40
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Gonnagle.
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Dear ad o,
Now that is weird, I did not put that last bit in bold, honestly, right hand up to God ( did you ever do that as a child, trying to convince your mates that you were telling the truth, right hand up to God ) God is working in this forum, The Lord moves in Mysterious ways :o
Gonnagle.
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Dear ad o,
Sorry mate, friend, you can quote all the Saints and all the Prophets you want, you can try and twist the words spoken by Our Lord, you can point to Old Testament, you can point to words spoken by his followers, me, I am a simple Christian, I follow the words of Christ, Christ trumps any Saint or Prophet.
I am not much of a Bible thumper but this is where you should start every morning, it then stops being about them ( whoever them is ) and becomes all about you, a life time of searching your own soul, I am to old now to be chucking stones, Arthritis has stepped in. ;)
Matthew 22:36-40
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Gonnagle.
But again, where does our Lord tell us to approve of sin?
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So you believe anybody who says they are guided by the HS?
No, not anybody. Certainly those the Church has always recognised, I do.
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Of course you would like to think that but in reality that is just laughable and something no one takes seriously.
No one?
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No, not anybody. Certainly those the Church has always recognised, I do.
So what? It doesn't mean you have any credibility or it makes you a decent person!
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No, not anybody. Certainly those the Church has always recognised, I do.
So you believe they are guided by the HS because somebody else has said they are? :)
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Anyway getting back to the topic in question, some of the unpleasant replies on this thread back up the proposition no way should children be withdrawn from sex education classes
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So you believe they are guided by the HS because somebody else has said they are? :)
Everything ad_o purports to believe in is because someone else has said it - whichever of the Heinz 57 varieties of Christianity he happens to belong to this month. There are some unfortunates around who never feel reasonably secure in the world until and unless they're being told what and how to think by what they perceive to be people and organisations claiming (a wholly spurious) authority, and he's one of them.
It's certainly easier to live as though somebody else has already got it all figured out and you just have to lap it all up, no doubt about it. But it's lazy, cowardly, mindless and in the end deadening.
On this subject I can only refer to the inspiring words of the late Hitch:
... when Socrates was sentenced to death for his philosophical investigations, and for blasphemy for challenging the gods of the city — and he accepted his death — he did say, well, if we are lucky, perhaps I’ll be able to hold conversation with other great thinkers and philosophers and doubters too. In other words the discussion about what is good, what is beautiful, what is noble, what is pure, and what is true could always go on.
Why is that important, why would I like to do that? Because that’s the only conversation worth having. And whether it goes on or not after I die, I don’t know. But I do know that that’s the conversation I want to have while I’m still alive. Which means that to me, the offer of certainty, the offer of complete security, the offer of an impermeable faith that can’t give way, is an offer of something not worth having. I want to live my life taking the risk all the time that I don’t know anything like enough yet; that I haven’t understood enough; that I can’t know enough; that I’m always hungrily operating on the margins of a potentially great harvest of future knowledge and wisdom. I wouldn’t have it any other way.
And I’d urge you to look at ... those people who tell you, at your age, that you’re dead till you believe as they do — what a terrible thing to be telling to children! And that you can only live by accepting an absolute authority — don’t think of that as a gift. Think of it as a poisoned chalice. Push it aside however tempting it is. Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way.
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Dear ad o,
But again, where does our Lord tell us to approve of sin?
Boy!! you Christian types are hard work.
Nevermind, whilst me and you discuss Scripture, people are dying being persecuted because of words written in a stupid old book, and that is what it becomes when people use it to persecute Gods children.
Gonnagle.
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Anyway getting back to the topic in question, some of the unpleasant replies on this thread back up the proposition no way should children be withdrawn from sex education classes
With the proviso that the Sex Ed is factual and based upon medical precepts and not religious ones.
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That's right - scare the living shit out of the (other people's - you will do it to your own before they get to school) children and thus make bloody sure that they follow the "Christinan" way. As if having to decide to have an abortion was not traumatic enough!
This is an attitude that Ad_O would be proud of! An Orthodox attitude and, Humph, your religious prejudices are showing.
By that reasoning you would disapprove of workplace induction courses giving definitions of sexual harassement on the grounds that it might frighten young people?
Many young people work in building society offices threatening people with eviction if they cannot keep up their mortgage payments. If it was up to me I would send all such people to the actual evictions so they know exactly what happens. Evicting people aint just a matter of printing off a letter.
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Many young people work in building society offices threatening people with eviction if they cannot keep up their mortgage payments. If it was up to me I would send all such people to the actual evictions so they know exactly what happens. Evicting people aint just a matter of printing off a letter.
While I couldn't agree with you more than I do, would it actually make any difference? Would they act otherwise - if they wanted to keep their job?
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Dear ad o,
Boy!! you Christian types are hard work.
Nevermind, whilst me and you discuss Scripture, people are dying being persecuted because of words written in a stupid old book, and that is what it becomes when people use it to persecute Gods children.
Gonnagle.
You're avoiding, Gonners, because you know I'm right.
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By that reasoning you would disapprove of workplace induction courses giving definitions of sexual harassement on the grounds that it might frighten young people?
Many young people work in building society offices threatening people with eviction if they cannot keep up their mortgage payments. If it was up to me I would send all such people to the actual evictions so they know exactly what happens. Evicting people aint just a matter of printing off a letter.
Taking the argument to the point of absurdity in quite usual for Christians on here when they know they are wrong.
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You're avoiding, Gonners, because you know I'm right.
He's not avoiding anything. In fact he's just made an extremely good point that any compassionate, kindly, normally-constituted person with a conscience (i.e. not you) either with or without a religious adherence would make.
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Dear ad o,
Sorry mate but you are the one avoiding, you stand on your righteous Scripture and shout sinner instead of asking God to look into your own manky little heart and ask for forgiveness, I don't know what your Church teaches about meeting your maker, I just hope I am not behind you in the queue, I could have a long wait to get to the bar.
Gonnagle.
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Dear ad o,
Sorry mate but you are the one avoiding, you stand on your righteous Scripture and shout sinner instead of asking God to look into your own manky little heart and ask for forgiveness, I don't know what your Church teaches about meeting your maker, I just hope I am not behind you in the queue, I could have a long wait to get to the bar.
Gonnagle.
I'll get the drinks in
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While I couldn't agree with you more than I do, would it actually make any difference? Would they act otherwise - if they wanted to keep their job?
It might make them less unsympathetic to those borrowers who face difficulties, which may well encourage those in difficulty to make some kind of arrangement rather than sticking their heads in the sand. Ultimately of course the decision to evict borrowers is not taken by young people who answer the telephone, but by their bosses. (I know this is a derail but I thought your question should be answered)
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You're avoiding, Gonners, because you know I'm right.
No, as has been pointed out you are the one avoiding. Not Gonners.
Have you ever considered your lack of compassion for others slightly different from you?
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Gabs,
Dear me - I was there for the births of all four of our children, and that's not a description that resonates for me particularly (though for one of them Mrs b did squeeze my hand hard and it really hurt. Did she apologise? Did she eckers-like...).
Anyways, I digress - isn't this "this is childbirth then girls" approach as narrow in its way as no sex ed at all? I heartily support sex ed, but there's a lot more to having children than the birth itself I'd have thought and surely sex ed should reflect that too shouldn't it?
BHS
Given how much it hurt your hand I am surprised you went on to have more kids.
The guidance from the government on sex education seems to be that the biology needs to be covered - puberty, intercourse, childbirth by the end of Primary - and then in secondary school, the other main purpose of the education is to reduce teenage pregnancies and STIs as they cost the State a lot. I think in that context the aim is to discourage teenage sex and other risky behaviour that leads to teenage pregnancies. So the education also covers what is risky behaviour including the effects of alcohol and drugs, and trying to teach young people the skills to neutralise peer pressure, as the opinion of peers has more influence than anything a teacher will say to young people.
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Dear ad o,
Sorry mate but you are the one avoiding, you stand on your righteous Scripture and shout sinner instead of asking God to look into your own manky little heart and ask for forgiveness, I don't know what your Church teaches about meeting your maker, I just hope I am not behind you in the queue, I could have a long wait to get to the bar.
Gonnagle.
Did I say I was without fault? No and we take confession very seriously (whilst the liberals hardly practice it or even scorn it). What you're doing is the usual liberal tactic of using the Gospel to approve of sin but what did Christ say to the woman caught in adultery? "Now sin no more". He didn't say, "Carry on".
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Did I say I was without fault? No.
Well you couldn't, could you.
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ao,
1. No they're not. You can find other gobbets that contradict the bit on which you rest your bigotry.
2. Why in any case pick that bit rather focus your ire on, say, the shellfish eaters of the mixed fibre wearer?
The shellfish-type laws were for the Israelites only. However the laws about worshipping other gods (by sacrificing to them), committing murder (by drinking an animal's blood, cf Genesis 9), and sexual sins applied, if you read Leviticus 17-18 in detail, to God-fearing foreigners living with the Israelites as well as for the Israelites themselves. This indicates that those actions are wrong for all people. That the apostles (Acts 15) prohibited non-Jewish Christians from the same actions centuries later, indicates that they are wrong for all time.
Ad_o is right that the Bible is clear about this issue.
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Interesting phenomenon, this thinking that ancient middle eastern laws take precedence over basic human compassion and charity toward others, especially when those others are involved in something not only not-bad but as positively and actively good as a loving relationship.
But then some people are just plain weird, I guess, and have to lean on weird beliefs to try to justify their weirdness to themselves and others.
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Dear Blue,
Given how much it hurt your hand I am surprised you went on to have more kids.
That was a gentle dig at us men, no it was, Gabriella is having a dig at us poor down trodden men.
Dear Gabriella,
Not thought about it too much but yes you are right, show the kids all the horrors, just like religion, give them the facts, the good the bad and the downright ugly, sex is a serious subject, if we gloss over it we do the kids an injustice.
Gonnagle.
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Dear ad o,
I am not asking you to approve sin, I am asking you to have good long hard look at yourself and that old son takes a life time, you don't have time to point fingers and it is not your job.
Gonnagle.
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Did I say I was without fault? No and we take confession very seriously (whilst the liberals hardly practice it or even scorn it). What you're doing is the usual liberal tactic of using the Gospel to approve of sin but what did Christ say to the woman caught in adultery? "Now sin no more". He didn't say, "Carry on".
So how's the 'sin no more' going for you at the moment, ad-o?
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Dear Blue,
That was a gentle dig at us men, no it was, Gabriella is having a dig at us poor down trodden men.
Dear Gabriella,
Not thought about it too much but yes you are right, show the kids all the horrors, just like religion, give them the facts, the good the bad and the downright ugly, sex is a serious subject, if we gloss over it we do the kids an injustice.
Gonnagle.
My four year old girl says she's never having babies as it would hurt too much... we've never misled her about the realities of childbearing, but we didn't go as far as including all the gory details.
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So how's the 'sin no more' going for you at the moment, ad-o?
With difficulty. What's your point?
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The shellfish-type laws were for the Israelites only. However the laws about worshipping other gods (by sacrificing to them), committing murder (by drinking an animal's blood, cf Genesis 9), and sexual sins applied, if you read Leviticus 17-18 in detail, to God-fearing foreigners living with the Israelites as well as for the Israelites themselves. This indicates that those actions are wrong for all people. That the apostles (Acts 15) prohibited non-Jewish Christians from the same actions centuries later, indicates that they are wrong for all time.
Ad_o is right that the Bible is clear about this issue.
Big deal! The Bible is WRONG about many things!
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With difficulty. What's your point?
If that is an honest assessment of your own failings then maybe you could show some compassion to others?
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If that is an honest assessment of your own failings then maybe you could show some compassion to others?
But by "compassion" you inevitably mean "approve" but no Christian can approve.
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But by "compassion" you inevitably mean "approve" but no Christian can approve.
Plenty seem to manage with nary a sign of strain.
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But by "compassion" you inevitably mean "approve" but no Christian can approve.
Garbage! ::)
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But by "compassion" you inevitably mean "approve" but no Christian can approve.
How about not judging? Live and let live? That kind of thing?
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My four year old girl says she's never having babies as it would hurt too much... we've never misled her about the realities of childbearing, but we didn't go as far as including all the gory details.
I think it's only in Year 6 that they have the opportunity to watch a live birth video - will check with my kids.
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Dear Rhiannon,
Confession, old ad o has confession, the Priest tells him to go and sin no more, mean while God is thinking, haud oan, haud the bus ( God is a Glaswegian ) who made that wee nyaff God >:( >:(
Dear ad o,
But by "compassion" you inevitably mean "approve" but no Christian can approve.
Or point the finger.
But I will leave you here, I need to believe that deep down you know you are wrong and that God will soften your heart so that you embrace all of Gods children, well except for Celtic supporters and Tories, oh and eastcoasters.
Gonnagle.
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How about not judging? Live and let live? That kind of thing?
Calling something sinful is not the same as judging a person. You have to be able to recognise sin before you can even begin to deal with it in your own life. As for live and let live, that just means we can all do what the hell we want, but again a Christian can never approve of that.
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I think it's only in Year 6 that they have the opportunity to watch a live birth video - will check with my kids.
I'm all for the technical specifications about our biology being supplied to our children, but I sincerely hope it comes with the more important stuff, like the emotional implications and significance of those events, the role of relationships etc.
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mean while God is thinking, haud oan, haud the bus ( God is a Glaswegian )
and uses the bus apparently! :D
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Calling something sinful is not the same as judging a person. You have to be able to recognise sin before you can even begin to deal with it in your own life. As for live and let live, that just means we can all do what the hell we want, but again a Christian can never approve of that.
But you might be wrong. You need to beware the sin of pridefulness, ad-o.
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Dear Rhiannon,
Confession, old ad o has confession, the Priest tells him to go and sin no more, mean while God is thinking, haud oan, haud the bus ( God is a Glaswegian ) who made that wee nyaff God >:( >:(
This just shows how little you understand confession. It is Christ who forgives in confession but if you don't have sacraments you're unlikely know God's grace.
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and uses the bus apparently! :D
Of course
https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=LyqCE6Zh5sg
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Calling something sinful is not the same as judging a person.
Unless sin has changed its definition since the last time I looked that's pretty much exactly what it means.
As for live and let live, that just means we can all do what the hell we want
No, it means leave other people leading their own lives according to their own lights and finding happiness in their own way alone.
but again a Christian can never approve of that.
I dare say that'll be the reason so many Christians of a particular stripe are in everybody else's face about their lives (especially sex lives) and why they think the ideal parking spot for their noses is in somebody else's business.
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I'm all for the technical specifications about our biology being supplied to our children, but I sincerely hope it comes with the more important stuff, like the emotional implications and significance of those events, the role of relationships etc.
I think your concerns might have a slightly different focus from the government's. One of the main purposes of the government getting involved in sex education has been to try to reduce teenage pregnancies and the spread of STIs. Young people and children have a tendency to act more recklessly or impulsively than adults or can be more easily manipulated so it was thought that education might help tackle this. Historically, areas with higher teenage pregnancy rates and high rates of STI transmission have also had higher socio-economic deprivation.
I agree with Gonners - children can be presented with information about sex, relationships and potential consequences from lots of different sources - there aren't any guarantees about how any relationship will work out so that might be an area that the school might not have lots of time to focus on, but the potential physical consequences of sex are fact based. I think in terms of relationships the schools seem to be spending time on exploring the idea that people should not be bullied or coerced.
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I think your concerns might have a slightly different focus from the government's.
I can assure you most strongly that they do, on a great many subjects!
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This just shows how little you understand confession. It is Christ who forgives in confession but if you don't have sacraments you're unlikely know God's grace.
There we go, religion fostering peace and bringing everyone together again.
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Dear Rhiannon,
Confession, old ad o has confession, the Priest tells him to go and sin no more, mean while God is thinking, haud oan, haud the bus ( God is a Glaswegian ) who made that wee nyaff God >:( >:(
Dear ad o,
Or point the finger.
But I will leave you here, I need to believe that deep down you know you are wrong and that God will soften your heart so that you embrace all of Gods children, well except for Celtic supporters and Tories, oh and eastcoasters.
Gonnagle.
God might perhaps be a weegie, but an Orthodox priest does not say "Go and sin no more" following confession.
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I can assure you most strongly that they do, on a great many subjects!
Which is probably one of the reasons why there are parents (religious or otherwise) who may not feel comfortable with what the State is teaching in a sex education class - because the focus of the State on supporting the needs of a diverse group of children will be somewhat different from the focus of parents to support the individual needs of their own children.
I personally view the State's role in this as not doing much more than giving kids the minimum information they need to counteract the negative physical implications of sex which causes a drain on State resources - e.g. pregnancy, STIs - which is why I think watching abortion videos is useful - and also the State's role should be to counteract bullying in order that people can get on together in a public space.
I think it is the State's role to put in place mechanisms in a school to minimise bullying of children, and if the only way to do that means teaching kids values about equality that contradicts the values of their parents, then so be it. In a public arena I think the State has the right to require people to adhere to standards that enable friendly interaction. If the parents don't like the protective role taken by the State, they are free to home-school their kids.
ETA: Or parents can lobby for change and see how persuasive the school, other parents and the governors find their arguments. I believe some schools withdrew a sex education video aimed at primary school kids, showing an animation of 2 people having sex, after pressure from parents that it was too explicit.
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From todays Indy:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/education-secretary-nicky-morgan-waged-battle-with-david-cameron-for-compulsory-sex-education-a6869176.html
This in particular is a real hoot: A government source told Ms Newman: “There’s a divide…For me it gets to the heart of why we need more women in politics. It’s not just because it should be fair, it’s just these are the sort of issues which they understand and the men don’t.”[/