Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on March 22, 2016, 09:35:10 AM
-
We are a fucked up little species.
-
We certainly are: yet more futile inhumanity in the seemingly endless stream of futile inhumanity.
-
Sorry, I don't identify me, mine, the splendid people who hang out on this forum, indeed pretty much everyone that I meet, with the fuck jobs in any way whatsoever.
-
Something like this shows the worst of what we can do; it also will bring out the best, and we can't do those who are showing any tiny act of live or compassion or just doing what they do the disservice of labelling them as 'fucked up.'
-
Just some of the species.
Any thought why?
-
Just some of the species.
Any thought why?
Fervent, unshakeable belief in the absolute rightness of a cause. Belief in absolute and immutable truth. Immunity to scepticism. The desire for domination. Sheer love of chaos and carnage. Take your pick.
-
And that barely begins to scratch the surface.
-
Just some of the species.
Any thought why?
Two reasons.
1) Evolution has produced social species which instinctively fight for survival.
2) Horrifying though such behaviour is to most humans, it is all part of the natural process of life.
Consequently, we can only strive to control it to suit the majority of us.
-
Tragic beyond words. :o
-
Dear JP,
We are all greedy bastards, and we are now reaping what we sowed, argue me out of that one, no you can't, it is a fact.
Instead of education and money to build their countries so they could enjoy the life style we take for granted we gave them guns and a real reason to hate us.
I'am with Gordon and Sane on this one.
Gonnagle.
-
So it is just human nature and this could have been done by anyone and happened anywhere oh, and I thought their country was Belgium, or France, or Great Britain, where they have education and money and have not been given guns.
-
Mr. Gonnagle,
Not just them but us wagon burners too. You came here and gave us guns and ponies, smallpox and whiskey, and moved right into our house. We hate you. (snork)
No one can be surprised, they have told us, these back to the prophet people, that they are going to kill us until the world is Islamic. They have gone back to the true Islam that their grand poobah showed them. He used the sword and today they strap bombs on themselves. The European governments will come to realize someday, that they will have to shoot that cow(political correctness) and let the rest of us go to bed early.
-
We know that the bomb factories of these Islamic terrorists are located just blocks from the EU head quarters. We know that wanted terrorists are protected and able to hide in plain site, just blocks from EU headquarters. We know that because of political correctness and budget cuts, they wait till after the fact to raid these nesting communities. I note that even the ambliance drivers going out of the community being raided are wearing face masks. We know that there is no way to stop and check everybody going into an airport or subway tunnel nor hopping on a bus. And we know that it's them or us. As long as the Islamic terrorist lives, our lives are under threat.
"We will conquer your Rome, break you crosses, and enslave your women. If we do not reach that time, then our children and grandchildren will reach it." Abu Mohammad al-Adnani
-
We are a fucked up little species.
Are you referring to both sides or just one?
-
Fervent, unshakeable belief in the absolute rightness of a cause. Belief in absolute and immutable truth. Immunity to scepticism. The desire for domination. Sheer love of chaos and carnage. Take your pick.
You mean the US and Western policy? Because you have describe it to a tee there!!!
-
Sorry, I don't identify me, mine, the splendid people who hang out on this forum, indeed pretty much everyone that I meet, with the fuck jobs in any way whatsoever.
I agree.
It's also shocking that in many cases they have been brought up and educated in Europe :(
-
"We will conquer your Rome, break you crosses, and enslave your women. If we do not reach that time, then our children and grandchildren will reach it." Abu Mohammad al-Adnani
That nicely encapsulates the kind of sick thinking that religious superstitions can indoctrinate people's minds with.
-
That nicely encapsulates the kind of sick thinking that religious superstitions can indoctrinate people's minds with.
Those people are sick anyway, Leonard.
You have to balance it against the good and unselfish things religion can encourage.
It's their minds that are twisted.
A lot of Muslims disown them.
-
Those people are sick anyway, Leonard.
You have to balance it against the good and unselfish things religion can encourage.
It's their minds that are twisted.
A lot of Muslims disown them.
No Rose, they aren't sick, they are just completely convinced that the religious rubbish they have been indoctrinated with is true.
-
No Rose, they aren't sick, they are just completely convinced that the religious rubbish they have been indoctrinated with is true.
The thing is though, Islam doesn't tell people to kill unarmed civilians and children.
Most Muslims I've come across are horrified by the actions of these nutcases.
-
The thing is though, Islam doesn't tell people to kill unarmed civilians and children.
Islam shouldn't tell them to kill anybody.
Most Muslims I've come across are horrified by the actions of these nutcases.
Of course they are ... but they are not nut cases. That is excusing them their conduct i.e., "they know not what they do". They know perfectly well what they are doing, and do it because they have been taught it is correct.
-
Islam shouldn't tell them to kill anybody.
Of course they are ... but they are not nut cases. That is excusing them their conduct i.e., "they know not what they do". They know perfectly well what they are doing, and do it because they have been taught it is correct.
They are not nutcases in the sense it excuses their behaviour, no.
I don't think Islam teaches that their behaviour is acceptable, I think they follow a warped version.
It gives them a warped cause.
-
You have to balance it against the good and unselfish things religion can encourage.
How do you balance murder?
-
They are not nutcases in the sense it excuses their behaviour, no.
I don't think Islam teaches that their behaviour is acceptable, I think they follow a warped version.
It gives them a warped cause.
Quite! That is what I said in the first place.
"That nicely encapsulates the kind of sick thinking that religious superstitions can indoctrinate people's minds with."
-
How do you balance murder?
You put it on the negative side.
Then you balance it against the selfless and compassionate things religions influence people to do.
-
Something like this shows the worst of what we can do; it also will bring out the best, and we can't do those who are showing any tiny act of live or compassion or just doing what they do the disservice of labelling them as 'fucked up.'
I haven't labelled any individuals as fucked up, just the species, and that we do this worst/best thing seems the nature of the fuck up
That we might blame this on nutters, on indoctrination, on the otherness of some because we see them as different, is part of the fucked upness. They are some other side of the species (at least that is what Jack Knave's post seems to imply). It's just us, as ever the monster, the other, the thing feared and hated, is just us.
-
Quite! That is what I said in the first place.
"That nicely encapsulates the kind of sick thinking that religious superstitions can indoctrinate people's minds with."
The minority, Leonard.
( at least I sincerely hope so )
Otherwise, should I regard every Muslim as dodgy?
-
You put it on the negative side.
Then you balance it against the selfless and compassionate things religions influence people to do.
Religions are people, there isn't anything else. They create the horror and the compassion. They aren't external. They are the manifestation of our best, worst, most mediocre. They are our alpha, omega and our mu. We make them in our image
-
The minority, Leonard.
Yes, fortunately human common sense prevails over religious rot ... otherwise we wouldn't be here discussing it.
-
Religions are people, there isn't anything else. They create the horror and the compassion. They aren't external. They are the manifestation of our best, worst, most mediocre. They are our alpha, omega and our mu. We make them in our image
So perhaps striving for the positive has a point then.
🌹
-
You put it on the negative side.
Seriously?
How many food parcels do you need to send to Africa to balance one murder. What's the rate of exchange?
And why do we have to balance murder? Why don't we see the acts as independent?
-
Yes, fortunately human common sense prevails over religious rot ... otherwise we wouldn't be here discussing it.
Religious rot is part of human common sense in the sense of being common.
-
So perhaps striving for the positive has a point then.
🌹
The positive what? Someone thought the blowing up of those people was a positive.
-
Religious rot is part of human common sense in the sense of being common.
True, but some of us are intelligent enough to distinguish good common sense from bad! :D
-
I haven't labelled any individuals as fucked up, just the species, and that we do this worst/best thing seems the nature of the fuck up
That we might blame this on nutters, on indoctrination, on the otherness of some because we see them as different, is part of the fucked upness. They are some other side of the species (at least that is what Jack Knave's post seems to imply). It's just us, as ever the monster, the other, the thing feared and hated, is just us.
Yes, I agree, it is just us. We've always been the same. What I don't see though is fucked up; just deeply flawed.
So a question of degree then.
-
Seriously?
How many food parcels do you need to send to Africa to balance one murder. What's the rate of exchange?
And why do we have to balance murder? Why don't we see the acts as independent?
Depends on who you murder, and who you are and when you lived. It's a floating exchange rate and sometimes it will take anything from a million to one meals for a murder. Sometimes murder is an absolute good. It was for the OT. JC may or may not have changed it dependent on the percentage of OT you saved under your mattress. Some new JC currency has almost no OT impact.
For other currencies, your country of origin may have an impact and the exchange against virgins/raisins is also important.
Best not try to use Scottish notes in England, or any note at all in the Middle East.
-
The positive what? Someone thought the blowing up of those people was a positive.
That's because they were warped.
-
That's because they were warped.
They don't think so, and why post that they were warped but the nice religuous people are influenced nicely by religion. Your position is inconsistent
-
Yes, I agree, it is just us. We've always been the same. What I don't see though is fucked up; just deeply flawed.
So a question of degree then.
Deeply flawed is fucked up on non bombed days. Not degree just question of bile.
-
They don't think so, and why post that they were warped but the nice religuous people are influenced nicely by religion. Your position is inconsistent
Not from my perspective.
It's like accepting the actions of the Westboro church don't reflect Christianity as a whole.
So these fanatics don't represent Islam as a whole.
The alternative is to become islamaphobic.
Not sure I am ready for that just yet.
-
Deeply flawed is fucked up on non bombed days. Not degree just question of bile.
No, I think if we were truly fucked then kindness/compassion/bravery/ selflessness/love couldn't exist at all.
-
Not from my perspective.
It's like accepting the actions of the Westboro church don't reflect Christianity as a whole.
Do the actions of a subset of Christians affect Christianity as a whole in general? Or is it just the ones that do good things?
It seems to me that, if you are going to claim some self sacrifice for the common good on the part of a Christian as being a positive point for Christianity generally, you also need to accept evil done on the part of a Christian as being a negative point for Christianity generally. If Christianity wants the credit for William Wilberforce, it also needs to accept the blame for Fred Phelps.
-
Do the actions of a subset of Christians affect Christianity as a whole in general? Or is it just the ones that do good things?
It seems to me that, if you are going to claim some self sacrifice for the common good on the part of a Christian as being a positive point for Christianity generally, you also need to accept evil done on the part of a Christian as being a negative point for Christianity generally. If Christianity wants the credit for William Wilberforce, it also needs to accept the blame for Fred Phelps.
Yes it does.
Religion can lead to both positive and negative things.
I take your point, and yes I think you make a valid point.
-
No, I think if we were truly fucked then kindness/compassion/bravery/ selflessness/love couldn't exist at all.
Bravery has killed, murdered many more than cowardice. Compassion has justified millions of deaths. Selflessness has produced suicide bombers.
-
Not from my perspective.
It's like accepting the actions of the Westboro church don't reflect Christianity as a whole.
So these fanatics don't represent Islam as a whole.
The alternative is to become islamaphobic.
Not sure I am ready for that just yet.
No, the alternative isn't that. You seem to argue that what happened in Brussels was because the people were warped, but when people do good in the religion it is attributable in some way to the religion. This is inconsistent logically.
-
True Islam- "So be not weak and ask for peace, while you are having the upper hand. Allah is with you, and will never decrease the rewards of your good deeds." Quran 47:35
I noted the boos and shouts from the Muslims gathers on the streets as the authorities were driving out of their neighborhood.
-
Bravery has killed, murdered many more than cowardice. Compassion has justified millions of deaths. Selflessness has produced suicide bombers.
You may be right. And the converse is true. There will be people in Brussels right now giving of themselves in ways that I can't imagine. For as long as we have those that do so, we aren't fucked.
-
You may be right. And the converse is true. There will be people in Brussels right now giving of themselves in ways that I can't imagine. For as long as we have those that do so, we aren't fucked.
ah, now we are deep in the differing uses of fuck. Being fucked up, doesn't mean you are fucked. Leaving aside the apocryphal idea of snow for Eskimaux, even if they are not the only gay ones in the tribe, fuck is the single most adaptable word in Glaswegian
-
You may be right. And the converse is true. There will be people in Brussels right now giving of themselves in ways that I can't imagine. For as long as we have those that do so, we aren't fucked.
There's an old Jewish story (actually, there's an old Jewish story that there's an old Jewish story for everything - but that's for another time) to the effect that the world only exists and keeps on going because there are, specifically, 36 righteous people (Lamed Vavniks, as they're known) scattered across the planet who continue to justify humanity to God, who lets the world carry on rolling along on their account because they demonstrate how good people can be.
That's just an old tale. The good news is that at any one time there are vastly many more than 36 such people in the world.
-
I only believe in one
'In every generation there is a Chosen One. She alone will stand against the vampires, the demons, and the forces of darkness. She is the Slayer.'
-
I only believe in one
'In every generation there is a Chosen One. She alone will stand against the vampires, the demons, and the forces of darkness. She is the Slayer.'
Except that, as you know, by the end of the last episode there were hundreds of slayers.
-
In a way, it is a part of us. ( human race)
It's not just religion, what about that airline pilot that locked out the other pilot from the cockpit and flew the plane deliberately into a mountain killing everyone on board?
Or the man who walks into a school and shoots the children, then shoots himself.
Or that Nazi nutter who shot 77 people in Norway.
Sometimes people find someone else to share their cause with.
This one in Brussels, is a shared one.
They are not doing it because they don't know what they are doing, they know.
It's a cause, no different to the man shooting children in a school.
It's a nasty part of humanity, and it's not confined to religion.
The cause can be anything, including an issue with authority.
It's people with a disrespect for the lives of other people.
They act it out, when it's shared, they look to the approval of their peers, and unfortunately there are always those cheering on from a safe distance.
We have had murderers in the uk on the run from the police, who have shot people, and they to get cheered on in the sense of being seen as a hero by certain elements.
That Moat bloke had his peers, who wanted him to hurt the police and supported a sort of anarchy.
-
Then the good is just part of us as well.
-
Then the good is just part of us as well.
Yes, like Rhiannon says, just as well there is.
Dreadful things like this sometimes bring out the good side in people, they rally around helping the victims in any way they can.
🌹
-
Two reasons.
1) Evolution has produced social species which instinctively fight for survival.
I'm not sure that this even comes close to what is happening with Diash/IS. They seem happy to have people go into situations and deliberately destroy themselves (so seeming to contradict the idea of 'instinctively fight(ing) for survival'). Could it indicate a form of evolutionary entropy?
-
So it is just human nature and this could have been done by anyone and happened anywhere oh, and I thought their country was Belgium, or France, or Great Britain, where they have education and money and have not been given guns.
JP, whilst this particular group of 3, 2 of whom 'gave their lives to the cause' don't appear to have had any experience of life in Daish-run Syria or wherever, it does seem as though a large number of Belgian Muslims have travelled there (some 800, iirc) and perhaps 200 have then returned to Europe. The vast majority of these returnees will have been primed to act against the West in some way at some time (sleeper cells).
One also has to remember that, Belgium has not treated its Muslim population well. The Muslim 'quarter' where Salah Abdeslam hid for 4 months before being arrested on Friday is - by all accounts - a pretty grim place to live.
Even the gloating from the Belgian 'Interior'(?) minister following the arrest - 'We got him' (reminiscent of the American jingoism following to discovery of Saddam Hussain in a culvert or whatever) is pretty insensitive.
-
That nicely encapsulates the kind of sick thinking that religious superstitions can indoctrinate people's minds with.
And not only religion, LJ. The same sentiment can be applied to Maoism/Stalinism/'Pol Pot'ism/etc.
As such, it seems to be a condition that is common to humanity whatever their philosophical outlook on life, which suggests that it is not directly linked to any given belief-system.
-
It's not just religion, what about that airline pilot that locked out the other pilot from the cockpit and flew the plane deliberately into a mountain killing everyone on board?
Or the man who walks into a school and shoots the children, then shoots himself.
Or that Nazi nutter who shot 77 people in Norway.
Sometimes people find someone else to share their cause with.
I disagree - what happened in Brussels is entirely different to the examples you gave.
What 'cause' was the plane pilot fighting for - I thought he was ill and suffering from depression and mental illness.
What 'cause' is the lone gunman perpetrating a shooting in a school fighting for - an individual deeply disturbed and often angry man, but there is no 'cause'.
The lone Nazi nutter is perhaps the nearest to having a 'cause' but in his case there was no orchestrated and concerted plan of attacks perpetrated by an organised group trying to impose their ideological views on others.
Sure all your cases involve multiple murder, but that doesn't mean they are all the same. The key difference with Brussels is it is ideologically driven and part of an orchestrated campaign.
-
True Islam- "So be not weak and ask for peace, while you are having the upper hand. Allah is with you, and will never decrease the rewards of your good deeds." Quran 47:35
Good to see you cherry-picking 'verses'/sections from the Quran, OMW.
-
Good to see you cherry-picking 'verses'/sections from the Quran, OMW.
It's a religion thing.
-
As such, it seems to be a condition that is common to humanity whatever their philosophical outlook on life, which suggests that it is not directly linked to any given belief-system.
Recent history in relation to terrorism does seem to indicate that there is a link to a certain religion, as opposed to religions in general, even if these activities are viewed as being dysfunctional interpretations of the relevant religion.
What we aren't seeing is terrorism related to Buddhism or Mormonism, so that whatever the solutions are (if there are any) that would lead to an end of IS terrorism it surely has to involve mainstream Islam which is, just like Christianity, a mix of different strands.
-
One also has to remember that, Belgium has not treated its Muslim population well. The Muslim 'quarter' where Salah Abdeslam hid for 4 months before being arrested on Friday is - by all accounts - a pretty grim place to live.
No of course not, just as I have seen the argument that Britain does not treat Muslims well as we are a nation or racists and Islamophobes. What is this bad treatment in Belgium? Are they denied access to the labour market, healthcare, education, freedom of choice, movement, religion and so on and so forth. Perhaps it is a pretty grim place because of the way they choose to be, separate and insular.
Even the gloating from the Belgian 'Interior'(?) minister following the arrest - 'We got him' (reminiscent of the American jingoism following to discovery of Saddam Hussain in a culvert or whatever) is pretty insensitive.
Yes, how insensitive of him expressing this after catching someone involved in mass murder. He really needs to consider the feelings of others, no wonder those minorities feel the way they do.
I have just read this again and had to laugh at the "pretty insensitive" bit. What a twat he is. I hope he resigns, beats himself with a wet fish, gets on his knees and apologises
-
And not only religion, LJ. The same sentiment can be applied to Maoism/Stalinism/'Pol Pot'ism/etc.
As such, it seems to be a condition that is common to humanity whatever their philosophical outlook on life, which suggests that it is not directly linked to any given belief-system.
All of which have come and gone in a few decades, unfortunately unlike religion, especially the one where these people draw their inspiration from which is the direct word of "God" given to the best example of humanity.
-
I disagree - what happened in Brussels is entirely different to the examples you gave.
What 'cause' was the plane pilot fighting for - I thought he was ill and suffering from depression and mental illness.
What 'cause' is the lone gunman perpetrating a shooting in a school fighting for - an individual deeply disturbed and often angry man, but there is no 'cause'.
The lone Nazi nutter is perhaps the nearest to having a 'cause' but in his case there was no orchestrated and concerted plan of attacks perpetrated by an organised group trying to impose their ideological views on others.
Sure all your cases involve multiple murder, but that doesn't mean they are all the same. The key difference with Brussels is it is ideologically driven and part of an orchestrated campaign.
They have some things in common IMO
This is the profile of a terrorist
"Horgan found that people who are more open to terrorist recruitment and radicalization tend to:
Feel angry, alienated or disenfranchised. Believe that their current political involvement does not give them the power to effect real change. Identify with perceived victims of the social injustice they are fighting. Feel the need to take action rather than just talking about the problem. Believe that engaging in violence against the state is not immoral. Have friends or family sympathetic to the cause. Believe that joining a movement offers social and psychological rewards such as adventure, camaraderie and a heightened sense of identity."
http://www.apa.org/monitor/2009/11/terrorism.aspx
This of mass murderers in this case shooters
"As my colleagues Mark Coulson, Jane Barnett and I noted in a 2011 article in the Journal of Police Crisis Negotiations, school shooters have generally been found to 1) have a history of antisocial-personality traits, 2) suffer from mental illnesses such as depression or psychosis and 3) tend to obsess about how others, whether other individuals or society at large, have wronged them. (These conclusions are similar to the findings of a 2002 U.S. Secret Service report on school shootings.) These individuals seethe with rage and hatred and despondency, until they decide to lash out at individuals or a society they believe has done them great wrong.
http://ideas.time.com/2012/12/15/sandy-hook-shooting-why-did-lanza-target-a-school/
"
The cause is, in some ways to be noticed.
-
I see we are hand wringing again, reflecting, lighting candles and mourning.
Le suis Charlie, Je suis Paris, Je suis Brussels, Je suis [enter name here]
-
I see we are hand wringing again, reflecting, lighting candles and mourning.
Le suis Charlie, Je suis Paris, Je suis Brussels, Je suis [enter name here]
What would you suggest instead?
-
If one person believes in a talking donkey or that wine and bread turn into the blood and flesh of a person, they are considered nuts.
If large numbers of people believe it, it is considered ok.
So who is the nut? And who isn't?
And why are beliefs that are considered " barmy" when held by one person ( as a form of mental illness) is considered perfectly rational when held by lots of people?
Is someone who dances with fairies at the bottom of the garden any more potty than someone who takes communion and believes it transforms?
A cause can be held by an individual, just like it can for a group. It's just that a group is self validating.
An individual can feel just as angry and vengeful or want to end it all with a Big Bang and lots of publicity, just like a group of people.
I'm not convinced there is always such a big difference.
-
If one person believes in a talking donkey or that wine and bread turn into the blood and flesh of a person, they are considered nuts.
If large numbers of people believe it, it is considered ok.
So who is the nut? And who isn't?
And why are beliefs that are considered " barmy" when held by one person ( as a form of mental illness) is considered perfectly rational when held by lots of people?
Who says that that's the case?
-
No matter how awful the crime, some people jump in to support it.
Often it's a rebellion against society and authority.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/inside-the-mind-of-a-murderer/
I still think that the " cause" of this individual above has similarities to a terrorist, in this case an Islamic terrorist.
Both felt angry at a society / authority and reacted with violence, both have supporters that cheered them on, from the background.
-
Has there ever been a time when we haven't done this? No. It's part of who we are.
One day far in the future archaeologists will dig up mass graves in Syria and marvel at the utterly depraved barbarity of humanity in the past. And at the same time someone somewhere on the planet will be doing pretty much the same thing. We do t change.
-
Who says that that's the case?
Me.
I notice that it's ok to think we are really Orgrons from planet Sprog, dreaming about the earth and bowing to the sun every morning if lots of people think it.
But if it's just you, then people might cart you off with a straight jacket if you wandered around your local town centre harassing people.
Do it in a group though, and it's ok.
Have you not noticed that some religious people think it's ok to believe in the incredible if you belong to a group ( mostly theirs) , but not if you are a freethinker? :o
IMO too many people just follow others, I think it's why atrocities happen :(
The downside too is that because these terrorists are a group, anything goes.
-
Me.
Your stance is not shared.
-
Your stance is not shared.
That's ok.
It's allowed ;D
🌹
-
Interesting link from the Independent
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/is-there-really-any-difference-between-a-terrorist-and-an-ordinary-criminal-a6771716.html
-
I disagree - what happened in Brussels is entirely different to the examples you gave.
What 'cause' was the plane pilot fighting for - I thought he was ill and suffering from depression and mental illness.
What 'cause' is the lone gunman perpetrating a shooting in a school fighting for - an individual deeply disturbed and often angry man, but there is no 'cause'.
The lone Nazi nutter is perhaps the nearest to having a 'cause' but in his case there was no orchestrated and concerted plan of attacks perpetrated by an organised group trying to impose their ideological views on others.
Sure all your cases involve multiple murder, but that doesn't mean they are all the same. The key difference with Brussels is it is ideologically driven and part of an orchestrated campaign.
This link discusses two groups in more detail
http://www.internetjournalofcriminology.com/smithj_the_criminal_and_the_terrorist_ijc_july_2012.pdf
This link is really interesting and it also goes into how sexual deviants can join terrorist groups to dominate women.
It's a horrible thought, but it can show why some people are drawn to such groups.
It allows them power to fulfil some of their base desires.
The link leads to a dissertation which is quite long, but reveals a lot of interesting things about both terrorists and mass murderers.
-
And not only religion, LJ. The same sentiment can be applied to Maoism/Stalinism/'Pol Pot'ism/etc.
As such, it seems to be a condition that is common to humanity whatever their philosophical outlook on life, which suggests that it is not directly linked to any given belief-system.
That is quite true, and imo is an indelible facet of being human. We can only try to control the extremists, punish their them for their wrongdoings, and teach all youngsters that harming others is wrong.
-
What would you suggest instead?
Try to make sure there is no place name to fill in the blank.
-
Try to make sure there is no place name to fill in the blank.
:o
No!
Je Suiss
Just means " I am"
Je Suiss Rose
Just means " I am Rose"
:)
-
:o
No!
Je Suiss
Just means " I am"
Je Suiss Rose
Just means " I am Rose"
:)
Well I never knew that so thanks for pointing it out (BTW it only has one "s", not two)
Not sure why, but I get the impression that particular post of mine has made a whooshing sound right across the top of your head.
-
Well I never knew that so thanks for pointing it out (BTW it only has one "s", not two)
Not sure why, but I get the impression that particular post of mine has made a whooshing sound right across the top of your head.
Just like the Je suis Brussels cartoon has gone over my head.
https://www.romper.com/p/cartoon-tributes-after-brussels-terror-attacks-show-je-suis-bruxelles-is-a-unified-cry-7533
Please scroll down to the first tweet with a bizarre cartoon of what appears to be some chips with a devils spear and a picture of a statue on a plinth peeing on a hiding Islamic terrorist..... ( yes I get the Belgian flag in its mouth) :o
Anyone care to guess what the meaning is behind that? I'm somewhat at a loss ???
Chips in a cone with Devils pitch fork, statue peeing on man in Arab dress. ??? :-\
Perhaps you get it JP?
:o
-
Ok
I get the statue now, but what is the relevance of chips? Another chip one amongst these.
http://qz.com/644935/je-suis-bruxelles-cartoons-have-again-become-a-way-for-people-to-process-terror/
-
"Pommes frites" (chips) are a Brussels favorite / specialty - usually with mayonnaise.
-
"Pommes frites" (chips) are a Brussels favorite / specialty - usually with mayonnaise.
Being held instead of a torch by the hand of a representation of the Statue of Liberty.
-
Just like the Je suis Brussels cartoon has gone over my head.
https://www.romper.com/p/cartoon-tributes-after-brussels-terror-attacks-show-je-suis-bruxelles-is-a-unified-cry-7533
Please scroll down to the first tweet with a bizarre cartoon of what appears to be some chips with a devils spear and a picture of a statue on a plinth peeing on a hiding Islamic terrorist..... ( yes I get the Belgian flag in its mouth) :o
Anyone care to guess what the meaning is behind that? I'm somewhat at a loss ???
Chips in a cone with Devils pitch fork, statue peeing on man in Arab dress. ??? :-\
Perhaps you get it JP?
:o
I think these derivatives of 'Je sues Charlie' are missing the point. Je suis Charlie wasn't about a place or an individual but about an idea - saying Je suis Charlie means you stand up for freedom of speech, not Paris, or even a specific publication of people.
So I get a bit frustrated when people say we should now be saying Je suis Brussels, or Je suis Paris or Je suis Ankara - that's entirely missing the point of Je suis Charlie the whole point of which was it wasn't about a place or even a real person.
-
"Pommes frites" (chips) are a Brussels favorite / specialty - usually with mayonnaise.
Being held instead of a torch by the hand of a representation of the Statue of Liberty.
Ah! Thank you both :)
-
I disagree - what happened in Brussels is entirely different to the examples you gave.
What 'cause' was the plane pilot fighting for - I thought he was ill and suffering from depression and mental illness.
What 'cause' is the lone gunman perpetrating a shooting in a school fighting for - an individual deeply disturbed and often angry man, but there is no 'cause'.
The lone Nazi nutter is perhaps the nearest to having a 'cause' but in his case there was no orchestrated and concerted plan of attacks perpetrated by an organised group trying to impose their ideological views on others.
Sure all your cases involve multiple murder, but that doesn't mean they are all the same. The key difference with Brussels is it is ideologically driven and part of an orchestrated campaign.
A very Leftie analysis, and pretty much totally off the mark.
-
"Leftie"? Oh dear. Well, a mindless slogan is a handy substitute for rational thought or considered analysis I suppose.
-
A very Leftie analysis, and pretty much totally off the mark.
Is it 'leftie' to describe the actions in Brussels as ideologically driven and part of an organised campaign? Pray tell, why you think so?
-
That is quite true, and imo is an indelible facet of being human. We can only try to control the extremists, punish their them for their wrongdoings, and teach all youngsters that harming others is wrong.
Tell that to our Western leaders because they murder with impunity!!!
-
Tell that to our Western leaders because they murder with impunity!!!
Are they 'leftie' too?
-
"Leftie"? Oh dear. Well, a mindless slogan is a handy substitute for rational thought or considered analysis I suppose.
It is not a slogan it is a position of thought and ideology that these people have to analyse the goings on in life, and it is wrong.
-
It is not a slogan it is a position of thought and ideology that these people have to analyse the goings on in life, and it is wrong.
that's nice, perhaps though you might want to hand the assertatron back to Alan Burns before you get too excited and paint it with your 10cc of man cream.
-
Is it 'leftie' to describe the actions in Brussels as ideologically driven and part of an organised campaign? Pray tell, why you think so?
The root of all this goes back decades and further to the policies and actions of the West; specifically the US. The ideology is just a tag on to promote the cause of their hate of the West to the Islamic world. The actions of the West in the Middle East is the root of this and as the ME is predominately Muslim and it is these people who have been oppressed then it is this religion that has risen up against the western countries.
I'm not too sure that being organised is a unique thing that is a catalyst to causing extremes. The West is organised........ though mob rule and the crowd effect do play a part.
-
The root of all this goes back decades and further to the policies and actions of the West; specifically the US.
Not widely regarded amongst the still-in-touch-with-reality as a notably "leftie" nation, I gather.
-
Are they 'leftie' too?
I don't follow your logic here. People are the ones who do violence not just a certain label.
But in some sense they are leftie but also fascists at the same time....oh its so confusing ;)
-
that's nice, perhaps though you might want to hand the assertatron back to Alan Burns before you get too excited and paint it with your 10cc of man cream.
The assertatron is with you, Nearly, with signs of your love affair with it by the stains that are present on it. ;D
-
The assertatron is with you, Nearly, with signs of your love affair with it by the stains that are present on it. ;D
Aw! Recycling a joke, still at least you are avoiding global warming
-
Not widely regarded amongst the still-in-touch-with-reality as a notably "leftie" nation, I gather.
You took a wrong turn somewhere. You need to reread my posts to get back on track and understand what I'm saying.
-
I don't follow your logic here. People are the ones who do violence not just a certain label.
But in some sense they are leftie but also fascists at the same time....oh its so confusing ;)
It was a question, trying to follow your position.
-
Aw! Recycling a joke, .....
You know all about that one, Nearly!!! ;D ;D ;D
-
The root of all this goes back decades and further to the policies and actions of the West; specifically the US. The ideology is just a tag on to promote the cause of their hate of the West to the Islamic world. The actions of the West in the Middle East is the root of this and as the ME is predominately Muslim and it is these people who have been oppressed then it is this religion that has risen up against the western countries.
I'm not too sure that being organised is a unique thing that is a catalyst to causing extremes. The West is organised........ though mob rule and the crowd effect do play a part.
No one has said being organised is unique.
-
You took a wrong turn somewhere. You need to reread my posts to get back on track and understand what I'm saying.
What you are saying seems hopelessly confused. Why is a description of what happened in Brussels as being ideologically driven and organised leftist? Note I know you replied to that question before but you went off on some tangent that ignored the question.
-
You know all about that one, Nearly!!! ;D ;D ;D
Oh and putting little emojis to laugh at your own comments. You are Johnny Canoe aren't you, come on, admit it
-
It was a question, trying to follow your position.
And I answered it; they are both leftie and fascist.
-
What you are saying seems hopelessly confused. Why is a description of what happened in Brussels as being ideologically driven and organised leftist? Note I know you replied to that question before but you went off on some tangent that ignored the question.
People of the left, which includes all this politically correct rubbish, have a certain ideological and philosophical framework of seeing the world and how it works; how people psychologically function and act etc. Prof Davey's assessment typified this attitude and it is wrong. They totally underestimate how the interaction of religion (what I see as the unconscious) and cultural life and daily needs etc. interplay with each other. They are also myopic about how they affect people with their stupid and 'good intentions' policies, by just blundering into peoples lives and cultural perspectives.
-
People of the left, which includes all this politically correct rubbish, have a certain ideological and philosophical framework of seeing the world and how it works; how people psychologically function and act etc. Prof Davey's assessment typified this attitude and it is wrong. They totally underestimate how the interaction of religion (what I see as the unconscious) and cultural life and daily needs etc. interplay with each other. They are also myopic about how they affect people with their stupid and 'good intentions' policies, by just blundering into peoples lives and cultural perspectives.
JK - I find your comments bizarre.
The usual criticism of the left is that they are all soft and goody goody, allowing terrorist acts to be explained away on the basis of something that we'd done to them, that it is all justified on the basis of what we've done to them rather than their underlying idealogy - but I haven't done that, but someone else has:
'The root of all this goes back decades and further to the policies and actions of the West; specifically the US. The ideology is just a tag on to promote the cause of their hate of the West to the Islamic world.'
That statement comes from you JK and is almost classic of the kind that is often attributed to those on the left and dismissed by those on the right.
I think the underlying cause is ideology and it is a battle of ideologies, but not fundamentally a battle between islam and the west. Nope it is a battle fundamentally between different views of islam and how that should be implemented in a societal setting. The battle being between the hard liners who want an authoritarian theocracy and those who want a more secular approach, with greater religious freedoms. And this battle can be traced back at least to the Iranian revolution, further through the taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan, through Al Quaeda and now IS. All these being groups on one side of that battle within islam.
The west are really, in my opinion, peripheral to that battle but become involved on the basis that they are likely (certainly now) to side with the more moderate view and are therefore threatening to the extremists and damage the likelihood of their being successful.
I think IS fundamentally want the west to but out of the middle east so they can win their ideological battle with the other view of islam - effectively for the west not to be involved in a kind of idealogical civil war so to speak. I don't think IS realistically think that turning the UK (or Belgium) into an islamic state along their lines of thinking is really realistic. They do think that turning large tracts of the middle east into their kind of islamic state is, and they see the west as getting in the way of their goals.
-
Oh how wrong you are.
http://m.sputniknews.com/politics/20160323/1036837234/europe-brussels-radical-islamism.html
-
Recent history in relation to terrorism does seem to indicate that there is a link to a certain religion, as opposed to religions in general, even if these activities are viewed as being dysfunctional interpretations of the relevant religion.
What we aren't seeing is terrorism related to Buddhism or Mormonism, so that whatever the solutions are (if there are any) that would lead to an end of IS terrorism it surely has to involve mainstream Islam which is, just like Christianity, a mix of different strands.
We aren't seeing terrorism related to Buddhists in Europe - Europe is not involved in any political/ military campaigns against Buddhist territory. But in the wider world there are places such as Sri Lanka and Mayanmar, where creating division and an atmosphere of being under threat can bring in new supporters and silence dissent, so Buddist terrorism can be a useful tool in those countries for some political players.
http://world.time.com/2013/06/20/extremist-buddhist-monks-fight-oppression-with-violence/
ETA: I know the title of the link claims Buddhists monks are fighting oppression but in both those countries Buddhists are the overwhelming majority and in Sri Lanka are backed by the State - so "oppression" seems very misleading, especially as the article does not provide details or evidence of oppression.
-
JK - I find your comments bizarre.
The usual criticism of the left is that they are all soft and goody goody, allowing terrorist acts to be explained away on the basis of something that we'd done to them, that it is all justified on the basis of what we've done to them rather than their underlying idealogy - but I haven't done that, but someone else has:
'The root of all this goes back decades and further to the policies and actions of the West; specifically the US. The ideology is just a tag on to promote the cause of their hate of the West to the Islamic world.'
That statement comes from you JK and is almost classic of the kind that is often attributed to those on the left and dismissed by those on the right.
You're thinking of the hard left. They're just nuts. What you call right I would call leftie but they are also leaning to the fascist side. These you call right are lefties because they have taken on this political correct crap but they are fascistesque because they use it to control the masses. I'm well aware that what I said is held by the hard left but I say it because it is true not because of any political leanings on my part.
I think the underlying cause is ideology and it is a battle of ideologies, but not fundamentally a battle between islam and the west. Nope it is a battle fundamentally between different views of islam and how that should be implemented in a societal setting. The battle being between the hard liners who want an authoritarian theocracy and those who want a more secular approach, with greater religious freedoms. And this battle can be traced back at least to the Iranian revolution, further through the taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan, through Al Quaeda and now IS. All these being groups on one side of that battle within islam.
The west are really, in my opinion, peripheral to that battle but become involved on the basis that they are likely (certainly now) to side with the more moderate view and are therefore threatening to the extremists and damage the likelihood of their being successful.
People only latch on to desperate measures in desperate times. The content of the Quran has always been there and has therefore always been open to the interpretation ISIS is using it for. The reason it has been applied as it is now is because of desperate time for the Muslim world caused by the West's abuse of it power world wide (many peoples around the world hate the US in particular and the West generally) and in the Middle East over the decades. This is the root of the cause and the ideology and religious perspective is just a façade to coat this angst, a kind of sugary coating to make the pill go down; a coating which does however flavour the inner content.
I think IS fundamentally want the west to but out of the middle east so they can win their ideological battle with the other view of islam - effectively for the west not to be involved in a kind of idealogical civil war so to speak. I don't think IS realistically think that turning the UK (or Belgium) into an islamic state along their lines of thinking is really realistic. They do think that turning large tracts of the middle east into their kind of islamic state is, and they see the west as getting in the way of their goals.
Quite the contrary. They want the West and specifically the US to come in because they want revenge, they want to cause American troop deaths which for them would be a sweet victory - why else do they film and exhibit those Westerns they execute with such joy? Because they hope anger the West so that they will rush into the ME with ground troops. As for the Muslims that won't join their cause they just see them as traitors and as with traitors in WWI they are shot or killed. Traitors are wrapped in the mantle of being unfaithful to Allah which gives it even more force for them, hence their savagery.