Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Jack Knave on June 28, 2016, 05:27:07 PM
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Well worth listening to all of it but the policy or plan starts around 2:40.
http://www.ukipmeps.org/
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Well worth listening to all of it but the policy or plan starts around 2:40.
http://www.ukipmeps.org/
Can you summarise it for us. I'm not in a position to be able to stream videos at the moment since I'm on a slow mobile link.
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Can you summarise it for us. I'm not in a position to be able to stream videos at the moment since I'm on a slow mobile link.
Can't you wait till you get home? I know Farage is brilliant but patience is a virtue. Basically to fully leave the EU and function in the world once more, away from that totalitarian state.
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Can't you wait till you get home? I know Farage is brilliant but patience is a virtue. Basically to fully leave the EU and function in the world once more, away from that totalitarian state.
is he your dad?
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Can't you wait till you get home? I know Farage is brilliant but patience is a virtue.
Can't you stop being a lazy twat and put a bit more effort into your post than just a bare link?
Basically to fully leave the EU and function in the world once more, away from that totalitarian state.
We are going to leave the EU. Didn't you know?
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Can't you wait till you get home? I know Farage is brilliant but patience is a virtue. Basically to fully leave the EU and function in the world once more, away from that totalitarian state.
Farage isn't going to be PM, he isn't going to be in government, he will be no-where near the negotiations on the post Brexit settlement. Who exactly who is likely to be leading these developments (May, Gove, Leadsom, Crabb or Fox) is likely to negotiate a deal of that nature. None of them - well actually perhaps Fox, but he will likely be the first to be eliminated in the MPs votes.
If May as seems very likely it will probably be EEA - in other words not an EU member, but access to free market, retaining (largely) free movement, still paying into the EU (and probably being a net contributor like Norway).
Happy with that JK? - that what you voted for?
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Can't you wait till you get home? I know Farage is brilliant but patience is a virtue. Basically to fully leave the EU and function in the world once more, away from that totalitarian state.
If the institutions of the EU are insufficiently democratic surely it is better to work to improve them rather than run away and play in a corner.
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Jeremyp, this serious and in depth review of the plan might work even with your slow connection
http://thebrexitplan.com/
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Jeremyp, this serious and in depth review of the plan might work even with your slow connection
http://thebrexitplan.com/
Thanks. I'm posting that on Facebook because everybody deserves to know this.
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Can't you stop being a lazy twat and put a bit more effort into your post than just a bare link?
I was just carrying on your jest. You weren't being serious, of course...?
We are going to leave the EU. Didn't you know?
Are we? Brexit light isn't leaving...
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Farage isn't going to be PM, he isn't going to be in government, he will be no-where near the negotiations on the post Brexit settlement. Who exactly who is likely to be leading these developments (May, Gove, Leadsom, Crabb or Fox) is likely to negotiate a deal of that nature. None of them - well actually perhaps Fox, but he will likely be the first to be eliminated in the MPs votes.
If May as seems very likely it will probably be EEA - in other words not an EU member, but access to free market, retaining (largely) free movement, still paying into the EU (and probably being a net contributor like Norway).
Happy with that JK? - that what you voted for?
My OP was about what should be done, what the plan is by definition of the term Brexit - fully out. Anything else is not Brexit.
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If the institutions of the EU are insufficiently democratic surely it is better to work to improve them rather than run away and play in a corner.
That would be like trying to fry up a dog turd and create a fried egg - impossible. We won't be playing in the corner but on the world stage. It is the EU who have their heads up their arses.
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Dear Sane,
http://thebrexitplan.com/
Thanks ;D first chortle of the day :P
Dear Jeremyp,
Jack Knaves link is just UKIP posturing, there is no plan, the headline in the link is all about farages "who's laughing now".
Gonnagle.
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My OP was about what should be done, what the plan is by definition of the term Brexit - fully out. Anything else is not Brexit.
how come you and the 'brilliant' Nigel didn't notice that that was not happening. It is also not what the Leave campaign said so your view here is wrong, irrelevant and shows Nigel up to be an incompetent.
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My OP was about what should be done, what the plan is by definition of the term Brexit - fully out. Anything else is not Brexit.
All Brexit means is that we are non longer members of the EU - nothing more, nothing less.
Being like Norway is a perfectly valid type of Brexit - you might not like it, but it is Brexit all the same, in other words we would no longer be a member of the EU.
You do remember what the wording was on the referendum, don't you.
So EEA membership would undoubtedly be Brexit - you happy with that?
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This reminds me of Biblical interpretation - this passage means X, Y, and Z - and I know this because these are my sincerely held beliefs, and anybody else is wrong.
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That would be like trying to fry up a dog turd and create a fried egg - impossible. We won't be playing in the corner but on the world stage. It is the EU who have their heads up their arses.
We might be on the world stage but we are also a defacto part of Europe whether we like it or not, and Europe needs to formulate coherent continent-wide policies, the alternative would be an incoherent mishmash of contradictory national policies, we need to do better than that. We might not like the current Tory government, but we don't just give up on the concept of parliamentary democracy because of that. We stay and make our voices heard through democratic channels.
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I was just carrying on your jest. You weren't being serious, of course...?
Your response was nearly as funny as my original comment.
Are we? Brexit light isn't leaving...
I thought Brexit light was leaving the EU but keeping access to the single market, Norway style.
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Dear Sane,
http://thebrexitplan.com/
Thanks ;D first chortle of the day :P
Dear Jeremyp,
Jack Knaves link is just UKIP posturing, there is no plan, the headline in the link is all about farages "who's laughing now".
Gonnagle.
There's no plan? Surely not. Didn't Vote Leave have some sort of contingency in case they won?
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I was just carrying on your jest. You weren't being serious, of course...?
Are we? Brexit light isn't leaving...
Actually, it is.
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Actually, it is.
It's hermeneutics, Vlad, my version of Brexit is purer than yours, and closer to the original intention, so there.
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It's hermeneutics
Don't you mean Herman's hermits?
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Don't you mean Herman's hermits?
Definately Hermans Hermits
Years May Come, Years May Go lyrics
Let's take a look behind
and see what we can find
last year has
gone for everyone
passed with time
What happened to us then
can happen once again
and what's it now to me
history
Years may come
years may go
some go fast
some go slow
Some are good
some are bad
for each one
just be glad
Whenever I review
my lovin' times with you
I wouldn't change
a single page
we've lived through
It wasn't always smooth
sometimes we'd
jump the groove
we shed some tears and then
loved again
Years may come
years may go
some go fast
some go slow
Some are good
some are bad
for each one
just be glad
Some heartaches
I don't doubt
life's sure to dish us out
we'll beat the lot
and that is what
life's all about
Whatever may come true
ahead for me and you
someday it all will be
memories
Years may come
years may go
some go fast
some go slow
Some are good
some are bad
for each one
let's be glad
Years may come
years may go
some go fast
some go slow
;)
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Basically to fully leave the EU and function in the world once more, away from that totalitarian state.
'Unfortunately', as John Donne said many years ago, 'no man is an island' Jack. We will never be able to survive without some form of connection with the EU or the countries that make it up. As I've said elsewhere, our status as 5th largest economy in the world is heavily dependent on our having been a member of the EEC/EU for the past 40 years. Without a support system like that, it will rapidly slide down the league table. Currently, our GDP is only $0.16 trillion ahead of France, $0.75 trillion ahead of Brazil and $0.86 trillion ahead of Italy. Germany's GDP is some $0.7 trillion ahead of ours.
As for Farage, I tend to regard reality as other than that which he says.
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how come you and the 'brilliant' Nigel didn't notice that that was not happening. It is also not what the Leave campaign said so your view here is wrong, irrelevant and shows Nigel up to be an incompetent.
First of all Nigel and UKIP did see all this outcome as it was talked about months ago on their site. Secondly some official twatish organisation gave the Leave campaign to those wankers Vote.Leave, (not Farage and Leave.EU) so using them as the official stance on the EU is bogus. The whole thing has been a farce, but the outcome of leave will send hope and further referendums across the EU member states. ;D
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All Brexit means is that we are non longer members of the EU - nothing more, nothing less.
Being like Norway is a perfectly valid type of Brexit - you might not like it, but it is Brexit all the same, in other words we would no longer be a member of the EU.
You do remember what the wording was on the referendum, don't you.
So EEA membership would undoubtedly be Brexit - you happy with that?
I've covered this on another thread.
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This reminds me of Biblical interpretation - this passage means X, Y, and Z - and I know this because these are my sincerely held beliefs, and anybody else is wrong.
And that relativism applies to you too!
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We might be on the world stage but we are also a defacto part of Europe whether we like it or not, and Europe needs to formulate coherent continent-wide policies, the alternative would be an incoherent mishmash of contradictory national policies, we need to do better than that. We might not like the current Tory government, but we don't just give up on the concept of parliamentary democracy because of that. We stay and make our voices heard through democratic channels.
Firstly, what do you mean by Europe? Do you mean the EU? If so, use that term!
The mechanisms of the EU are superfluous for our needs. It is like religion, it imposes on the social life with its insane rules and provides nothing but pain and misery. Superfluous stuff needs to be got rid of; flushed down the loo!!!
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Brexit light was leaving the EU but keeping access to the single market, Norway style.
No it's not. Out is out! Free us from the monster!!!
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There's no plan? Surely not. Didn't Vote Leave have some sort of contingency in case they won?
How could they, they aren't in power.
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Actually, it is.
No it is not. You can't get half divorced!
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'Unfortunately', as John Donne said many years ago, 'no man is an island' Jack.
Who said anything about being an island.
We will never be able to survive without some form of connection with the EU or the countries that make it up. As I've said elsewhere, our status as 5th largest economy in the world is heavily dependent on our having been a member of the EEC/EU for the past 40 years. Without a support system like that, it will rapidly slide down the league table. Currently, our GDP is only $0.16 trillion ahead of France, $0.75 trillion ahead of Brazil and $0.86 trillion ahead of Italy. Germany's GDP is some $0.7 trillion ahead of ours.
We can trade with them but we don't need to be part of their political project.
Except over those 40 years the EU has declined and is declining further; it is dying. We don't need supporting we will trade with the rest of the world as well.
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First of all Nigel and UKIP did see all this outcome as it was talked about months ago on their site. Secondly some official twatish organisation gave the Leave campaign to those wankers Vote.Leave, (not Farage and Leave.EU) so using them as the official stance on the EU is bogus. The whole thing has been a farce, but the outcome of leave will send hope and further referendums across the EU member states. ;D
So they thought about it and failed to control it?
More seriously, I think now you need to push the argument that any new PM should hold an election to cover proposals in a leaving the EU world. Given Labour and the vote there is a chance that those Leavers pissed off by Labour and bits of the Tories, you could get enough seats to have some power. That of course would be helped if your leader had full confidence of even one MP in your party.
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So they thought about it and failed to control it?
And how would they have done that?
More seriously, I think now you need to push the argument that any new PM should hold an election to cover proposals in a leaving the EU world. Given Labour and the vote there is a chance that those Leavers pissed off by Labour and bits of the Tories, you could get enough seats to have some power. That of course would be helped if your leader had full confidence of even one MP in your party.
If I did push for an early GE I would want Art 50 to be triggered first, but my argument is that the government, and new PM, has a mandate from the people to leave the EU and should implement it.
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And how would they have done that?
If I did push for an early GE I would want Art 50 to be triggered first, but my argument is that the government, and new PM, has a mandate from the people to leave the EU and should implement it.
the two points are connected here. You couldn't do much about the first, although perhaps not just talking about it on internal websites might help. And you don't have much ability to get Article 50 invoked before an election. Are you scared that an election would remove the mandate?
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Firstly, what do you mean by Europe? Do you mean the EU? If so, use that term!
The mechanisms of the EU are superfluous for our needs. It is like religion, it imposes on the social life with its insane rules and provides nothing but pain and misery. Superfluous stuff needs to be got rid of; flushed down the loo!!!
This is just shallow tabloid speak that pays no heed to the deeper issues. It is a regressive head in the sand attitude to think we can go back to some sort of twentieth century model for Europe with nations disparately putting their national self interest above the greater good. The problems of the modern world are increasingly international, cross-border and global in nature and we need to be able to form coherent policies at all those levels. Nature is no respecter of political boundaries and so we need coherent policy making for things like agriculture, fisheries, environment, energy and climate policy at the very least. Europe also needs to pay attention to its particular problems, which historically have been those of extreme nationalism and extreme political ideologies. Economic union of the countries of Europe mitigates those risks via the prospect of greater prosperity that flows from elimination of artificial barriers to trade and movements of its people. We seem to have voted in favour of step backwards, possibly setting a trend that gives succour to the inward looking, the myopic, which might please the brain-dead fascist elements who are still there, in numbers, in many European countries.
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This is just shallow tabloid speak that pays no heed to the deeper issues. It is a regressive head in the sand attitude to think we can go back to some sort of twentieth century model for Europe with nations disparately putting their national self interest above the greater good. The problems of the modern world are increasingly international, cross-border and global in nature and we need to be able to form coherent policies at all those levels. Nature is no respecter of political boundaries and so we need coherent policy making for things like agriculture, fisheries, environment, energy and climate policy at the very least. Europe also needs to pay attention to its particular problems, which historically have been those of extreme natiionalism and extreme political ideologies. Economic union of the countries of Europe mitigates those risks via the prospect of greater prosperity that flows from elimination of artificial barriers to trade and movements of its people. We seem to have voted in favour of step backwards, possibly setting a trend that gives succour to the inward looking, the myopic, which might please the brain-dead fascist elements who are still there, in numbers, in many European countries.
An excellent, coherent and concise summary of the case for remaining. If I may, I would like to borrow it and use with the people that I "discuss" this matter with.
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Be my guest HH ;)
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No it is not. You can't get half divorced!
Sorry but we voted in a referendum that was just about leaving the EU.
At the moment we are committed to leaving but have no mandate for how we leave.
Your side was not prepared to share how Brexit would work preferring bullshit and sales talk
Now the referendum is over The necessary goal now is economic competence.
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Sorry but we voted in a referendum that was just about leaving the EU.
At the moment we are committed to leaving but have no mandate for how we leave.
Your side was not prepared to share how Brexit would work preferring bullshit and sales talk
Now the referendum is over The necessary goal now is economic competence.
Vlad, currently, we are not committed to leaving; that commitment can only follow a vote in Parliament and a resultant Act of Parliament. Until then, the referendum result remains an advisory result. With such a small majority to leave, I have a few doubts whether Article 50 will ever be triggered.
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Vlad, currently, we are not committed to leaving; that commitment can only follow a vote in Parliament and a resultant Act of Parliament. Until then, the referendum result remains an advisory result. With such a small majority to leave, I have a few doubts whether Article 50 will ever be triggered.
At the moment we need to honour the referendum position.
However we ought to honour the view of the public if there is pressure for a second referendum and or an election prior to ratification by parliament. To this end remainders and regrexitter and should be signing that petition and should reinforce the expectation of a general election prior to article 50.
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At the moment we need to honour the referendum position.
OK, if I understand it correctly, the 'referendum position' is that a small majority of those who voted want to leave. I'm not sure that that is a good enough position from which to require change. Let's imagine that there is a new general Election before Article 50 is triggered and the victors in that are clearly pro-remain? Do we honour the referendum (non-binding) or the General Election (binding) position?
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I don't think there should be a second referendum.
The march through London only had the support of a few thousand.
Stop trying to change the result of the vote.
It is, what it is.
If I am forced to vote again by the losers, I shall be changing my vote in protest.
The other "remain" voters are starting to embarrass and annoy me with their whining and attempts to invalidate more than half the countries vote.
I'm not the only remain voter who feels this way.
I'm swapping sides if this democratic referendum is over turned by people who refuse to accept they lost.
>:(
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The other "remain" voters are starting to embarrass and annoy me with their whining and attempts to invalidate more than half the countries vote.
I've heard far more Brexiters trying to explain away the claims they made before the referendum than remainers whinging about the vote. Ironically, it is the Remainers who seem keen to get on with life and make the best of what the referendum has given us.
I'm swapping sides if this democratic referendum is over turned by people who refuse to accept they lost.
Just out of interest, a referendum is not a democratic tool - especially in a representative democracy such as ours. At best it is a process that takes the temperature of the populace. Brexit cannot occur without an additional democratic process - a vote in favour in the House of Commons.
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I've heard far more Brexiters trying to explain away the claims they made before the referendum than remainers whinging about the vote. Ironically, it is the Remainers who seem keen to get on with life and make the best of what the referendum has given us.
Just out of interest, a referendum is not a democratic tool - especially in a representative democracy such as ours. At best it is a process that takes the temperature of the populace. Brexit cannot occur without an additional democratic process - a vote in favour in the House of Commons.
No quite a number of remain voters are not just getting on with life.
The voters were told by the Government that the country would honour the outcome of the vote in the referendum - period!
Anyone trying to wheedle their way into having a different outcome , is actually behaving dishonourably.
Even David Cameron has been saying that the vote of the people should be honoured.
But there seems to be a number of remain supporters that want to overturn that, and that includes on this messageboard.
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I think a lot of people are mourning the EU. This involves all kinds of feelings, such as sadness, anger, denial, and so on. It will probably go on for quite a time, as with bereavement and divorce.
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OK, if I understand it correctly, the 'referendum position' is that a small majority of those who voted want to leave. I'm not sure that that is a good enough position from which to require change. Let's imagine that there is a new general Election before Article 50 is triggered and the victors in that are clearly pro-remain? Do we honour the referendum (non-binding) or the General Election (binding) position?
It's all just a lot of flannel to change a result that some can't cope with.
We (or rather me and others) expect the victors of a GE to follow the promises through.
Not change them to pander to the views of the minority.
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While I am of the opinion that we need to follow the vote, I fail to see how anyone who doesn't is behaving dishourably given a govt they didn't vote for decreed a referendum they didn't support with an electoral register they thought was wrong on a campaign they thought was based on lies.
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I also don't like the idea that people should stop complaining and get on with life. This is stupid and dangerous. Of course some people are upset and angry, this seems perfectly normal, as Brexit is a major turn in political life, and if they are supposed to sit on this, and not express it, well, why?
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No quite a number of remain voters are not just getting on with life.
The voters were told by the Government that the country would honour the outcome of the vote in the referendum - period!
Anyone trying to wheedle their way into having a different outcome , is actually behaving dishonourably.
Even David Cameron has been saying that the vote of the people should be honoured.
But there seems to be a number of remain supporters that want to overturn that, and that includes on this messageboard.
If only we had an opposition party the referendum vote could be democratically overturned. It would take only a small number of Tory Leave MPs to joint the opposition for a vote of no confidence, then a GE could be fought on the issue of Brexit.
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Indeed, we don't say to people supporting parties that voted in general elections that they are behaving dishonourably if they continue to campaign against govt policies.
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Indeed, we don't say to people supporting parties tgatvlisecin general elections that they are behaving dishonourably if they continue to campaign against govt policies.
In fact, it sounds totalitarian. The country has decided, therefore no dissent will be permitted.
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While I am of the opinion that we need to follow the vote, I fail to see how anyone who doesn't is behaving dishourabky given a govt they didn't vote for decreed a referendum they didn't support with an electoral register they thought was wrong on a campaign they thought was based on lies.
If you all voted for independance by the same margin in Scotland, and the losers kept trying to find a way so it didn't happen and kept justifying why Scotland couldn't have independance, how would you see that?
Given that you had been told and promised by Westminster the result would determine your future.
If people then said it shouldn't happen because it was a small majority which could be overturned.
Would you find that dishonourable?
Because I would.
Even if I didn't like the result, the honourable thing to do is to do what was promised IMO.
Not make up reasons, for it not happening.
I'm opposed to Scotland being independant, but if you won a vote, I would expect it to be honoured. Never mind my own personal veiw.
It's the same, in as much as its Westminster promising something, and then everyone keep going on about changing the meaning of the vote, to suit themselves.
Does that make sense?
The Government allowed both referendums and led people to believe the outcome would dictate what actually happen.
It's dishonourable to backtrack on that.
Be it Scotland or Brexit.
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In fact, it sounds totalitarian. The country has decided, therefore no dissent will be permitted.
That's right, it's called democracy.
People were led to believe their collective vote would determine the outcome. That the majority of votes would determine the outcome.
It wasn't an opinion poll, was it?
Would we have back tracked on Scottish Independance as well?
Found sneaky little ways not to give it to them?
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Dissent isn't allowed in a democracy? Do you want to try that one again, Rose?
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Dissent isn't in a democracy? Do you want to try that one again, Rose?
You didn't answer my point about Scotland.
Would you find it dishonourable if we were talking about the Scottish Independance referendum instead?
And it had won, and people thought it was ok to fudge and flannel their way out of it?
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Dissent has been crucial in politics. For example, women used to not have the vote, but some brave women dissented, and eventually this was changed. There are many other examples.
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You didn't answer my point about Scotland.
Would you find it dishonourable if we were talking about the Scottish Independance referendum instead?
And it had won, and people thought it was ok to fudge and flannel their way out of it?
I didn't answer because it's irrelevant as you are ignoring the points made. People who opposed things are not being dishonourable in continuing to do so. They are not bound to follow the statements of people they voted against.
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Dissent isn't allowed in a democracy? Do you want to try that one again, Rose?
I don't think a minority should be trying to sabotage a majority vote in a referendum.
Even a large minority.
When you get a small majority vote in Scotland for independance and the politicians in Westminster try to back out because it's unpopular with the Rest of the U.K. and think it's ok to allow dissenters to block you, I think you will get why I think it's dishonourable.
:)
I can see you ain't worked it out yet!
I've got a feeling one day you might though.
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I don't think a minority should be trying to sabotage a majority vote in a referendum.
Even a large minority.
When you get a small majority vote in Scotland for independance and the politicians in Westminster try to back out because it's unpopular with the Rest of the U.K. and think it's ok to allow dissenters to block you, I think you will get why I think it's dishonourable.
:)
No, I really won't since I expect dissent in a democracy. I don't understand how a democracy works without dissent. That you want to stop dissent seems anti democratic.
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I didn't answer because it's irrelevant as you are ignoring the points made. People who opposed things are not being dishonourable in continuing to do so. They are not bound to follow the statements of people they voted against.
It's not as irrelevant as you like to think.
It's all the reasons people try and give for not following through or trying to ensure it doesn't happen.
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It's not as irrelevant as you like to think.
It's all the reasons people try and give for not following through or trying to ensure it doesn't happen.
. It's irrelevant for the reason I have pointed out. And in addition, I've already stated my position is the same. Dissent is not anti democratic.
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No, I really won't since I expect dissent in a democracy. I don't understand how a democracy works without dissent. That you want to stop dissent seems anti democratic.
It's not dissent, it's people trying to manoeuvre a different outcome to the one promised.
David Cameron and some of the prominent MP s are trying not to do that, there are many other MP s who are trying to overturn the vote in a variety of ways.
As gets discussed on here.
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Parliament itself is structured around dissent. A party wins a general election, but other parties are then entitled to oppose this government, and if they can, bring it down. Without dissent, there is simply tyranny.
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the two points are connected here. You couldn't do much about the first, although perhaps not just talking about it on internal websites might help. And you don't have much ability to get Article 50 invoked before an election. Are you scared that an election would remove the mandate?
I've said I've been aware of this for many months. There's little we can do about it.
The up side is that the EU is falling apart. The way the Leave lot see things many across the EU do as well. Hungary, I believe are having a referendum on immigrants soon. And god knows how the up coming elections in Germany and France late next year are going to affect things. Neither Merkel or Hollande are going to want to rock the boat by saying that they will be harsh on us and inflict tariffs on their goods.
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. It's irrelevant for the reason I have pointed out. And in addition, I've already stated my position is the same. Dissent is not anti democratic.
Ok so when Scotland does get a independant vote it's ok for all of us to show dissent and the politicians in Westminster to overturn the referendum.
Now I know.
It's ok with you, you see it as part of the democratic process.
I'll remember that.
It's ok for politicians to back track on their promises and block things.
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It's not dissent, it's people trying to manoeuvre a different outcome to the one promised.
David Cameron and some of the prominent MP s are trying not to do that, there are many other MP s who are trying to overturn the vote in a variety of ways.
As gets discussed on here.
Except as already pointed out many times, and ignored repeatedly by you, you are calling all dissenters dishonourable including all those who voted against the govt, the referendum, the way it was held. You also are ignoring the points about not expecting people to give up opposition after a GE.
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I don't think there should be a second referendum.
The march through London only had the support of a few thousand.
Stop trying to change the result of the vote.
It is, what it is.
If I am forced to vote again by the losers, I shall be changing my vote in protest.
Only a lobotomy might entice me to do that.
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Ok so when Scotland does get a independant vote it's ok for all of us to show dissent and the politicians in Westminster to overturn the referendum.
Now I know.
It's ok with you, you see it as part of the democratic process.
I'll remember that.
It's ok for politicians to back track on their promises and block things.
Can I suggest you read what is written? If someone has said that a referendum should be held and followed, then I think it would be dishonourable for them not to do that. But if someone has voted against the govt, voted against any referendum, voted against the way tg referendum is held, then their continued opposition is not dishonourable.
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This is just shallow tabloid speak that pays no heed to the deeper issues. It is a regressive head in the sand attitude to think we can go back to some sort of twentieth century model for Europe with nations disparately putting their national self interest above the greater good. The problems of the modern world are increasingly international, cross-border and global in nature and we need to be able to form coherent policies at all those levels. Nature is no respecter of political boundaries and so we need coherent policy making for things like agriculture, fisheries, environment, energy and climate policy at the very least. Europe also needs to pay attention to its particular problems, which historically have been those of extreme nationalism and extreme political ideologies. Economic union of the countries of Europe mitigates those risks via the prospect of greater prosperity that flows from elimination of artificial barriers to trade and movements of its people. We seem to have voted in favour of step backwards, possibly setting a trend that gives succour to the inward looking, the myopic, which might please the brain-dead fascist elements who are still there, in numbers, in many European countries.
This is just shallow tabloid speak that pays no heed to the deeper issues. You think a load of idealistic verbiage is the answer? You really think the EU has the answer and is on course for greater things? How laughable. You really think that what the EU has done to Greece is this wonderful vision of a better world; where the suicide rate has shot up due to despair and a sense of hopelessness.
You are as stupid as Corbyn singing, "Keep The Red Flag Flying".
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A famous example concerns Gaitskell, who opposed the Labour party vote for nuclear disarmament. Gaitskell made a famous speech, saying he would fight this tooth and nail, and of course, was labelled extremely honourable and one of the great moments in British politics! I think eventually it was reversed. Politics is full of dissent and fighting against a majority decision.
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Parliament itself is structured around dissent. A party wins a general election, but other parties are then entitled to oppose this government, and if they can, bring it down. Without dissent, there is simply tyranny.
That's not quite what I'm talking about here. I am aware of the idea of the opposition.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/29/uk-voted-for-brexit-but-is-there-a-way-back
It's more about some people plotting to disregard the referendum altogether, when the government promised that what the people voted for, they would get.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-loophole-eu-referendum-mps-law-legal-legislation-constitution-a7105181.html
That's not dissent, that's dishonesty.
The reason David Cameron is saying no to some MP s and others suggestions, is because he knows it's dishonesty.
So much so, he can't bring himself to do what the honest approach entails, and has stepped down.
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I've said I've been aware of this for many months. There's little we can do about it.
The up side is that the EU is falling apart. The way the Leave lot see things many across the EU do as well. Hungary, I believe are having a referendum on immigrants soon. And god knows how the up coming elections in Germany and France late next year are going to affect things. Neither Merkel or Hollande are going to want to rock the boat by saying that they will be harsh on us and inflict tariffs on their goods.
sorry, this seems like a non sequitur. Surely whether we should argue for a GE after the new PM emerges and parties can give the clear position on what Brexit should be is not affected by any of the above?
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How on earth can you have a general election to resolve the Brexit issue?
Remain and leave supporters are spread across the parties.
Is one political party going to agree to represent staying in, and the other coming out?
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Sorry but we voted in a referendum that was just about leaving the EU.
At the moment we are committed to leaving but have no mandate for how we leave.
Your side was not prepared to share how Brexit would work preferring bullshit and sales talk
Now the referendum is over The necessary goal now is economic competence.
The is only one way to leave and that is to leave. To take back control and leave the EU's political project, which includes the Single Market.
The leave campaign and those in the leave arena were never a homogeneous unit.
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How on earth can you have a general election to resolve the Brexit issue?
Remain and leave supporters are spread across the parties.
Is one political party going to agree to represent staying in, and the other coming out?
it won't resolve it, it just seems part of the democratic process to me.
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The is only one way to leave and that is to leave. To take back control and leave the EU's political project, which includes the Single Market.
The leave campaign and those in the leave arena were never a homogeneous unit.
Your two paragraphs contradict each other
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Vlad, currently, we are not committed to leaving; that commitment can only follow a vote in Parliament and a resultant Act of Parliament. Until then, the referendum result remains an advisory result. With such a small majority to leave, I have a few doubts whether Article 50 will ever be triggered.
The is only one way to leave and that is to leave. To take back control and leave the EU's political project, which includes the Single Market.
The leave campaign and those in the leave arena were never a homogeneous unit.
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I see that Blair is campaigning for a kind of reinterpretation of Brexit. Oh well, that's probably swung it for a hard Brexit.
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That's not quite what I'm talking about here. I am aware of the idea of the opposition.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/29/uk-voted-for-brexit-but-is-there-a-way-back
It's more about some people plotting to disregard the referendum altogether, when the government promised that what the people voted for, they would get.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-loophole-eu-referendum-mps-law-legal-legislation-constitution-a7105181.html
That's not dissent, that's dishonesty.
The reason David Cameron is saying no to some MP s and others suggestions, is because he knows it's dishonesty.
So much so, he can't bring himself to do what the honest approach entails, and has stepped down.
The problem with your position is that you are saying that someone who opposed Cameron, the referendum and how it was held is somehow being dishonourable for not following promises they didn't make. This was raised when you stated
'Anyone trying to wheedle their way into having a different outcome , is actually behaving dishonourably.'
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The is only one way to leave and that is to leave. To take back control and leave the EU's political project, which includes the Single Market.
The leave campaign and those in the leave arena were never a homogeneous unit.
That as they say is pure political propaganda.
It is highly debatable and to deny that is to stifle debate.
Norway is not in the EU. Therefore you are trying to turdpolish something extra into the plain meaning of leaving the EU.
The referendum was an unthought through crock from the start.
Even Farage recognised that when he said that a 52/48 vote would mean unfinished business.
Given Brexit regret we have the situation where in a few months time any probrexit administration could be undeniably holding a majority against its will, so good luck with that.
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sorry, this seems like a non sequitur. Surely whether we should argue for a GE after the new PM emerges and parties can give the clear position on what Brexit should be is not affected by any of the above?
That was not in your post I was replying to.
The issue was the non binding aspect of the referendum and that it would be the government who would then take the reins of its result. Nothing else was proffered.
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Your two paragraphs contradict each other
Your capacity to understand is limited, I quit understand.
The first was a 'should' - a moralistic and idealistic position; what should be. The other was just a fact of life.
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Your capacity to understand is limited, I quit understand.
The first was a 'should' - a moralistic and idealistic position; what should be. The other was just a fact of life.
The first was an assertion which was disproved by the fact. It also means that you are saying the result of the referendum was based in what your view is a lie. If you were being morally consistent you would refuse to accept the result.
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That as they say is pure political propaganda.
It is highly debatable and to deny that is to stifle debate.
Norway is not in the EU. Therefore you are trying to turdpolish something extra into the plain meaning of leaving the EU.
Wrong, Norway are enmeshed in the EU's political project to a certain degree, ergo it is in the EU arena. Leave means leave; out is out.
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The first was an assertion which was disproved by the fact. It also means that you are saying the result of the referendum was based in what your view is a lie. If you were being morally consistent you would refuse to accept the result.
Shock horror politicians catch lying. Never in the world of politics and elections have they ever lied to get into power and then reneged on their promises. That's politics, suck it up!!!
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Shock horror politicians catch lying. Never in the world of politics and elections have they ever lied to get into power and then reneged on their promises. That's politics, suck it up!!!
this isn't about politicians, this is about you. Your position is effectively stating the referendum does not give any mandate for what you believe.
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this isn't about politicians, this is about you. Your position is effectively stating the referendum does not give any mandate for what you believe.
I have no idea where you got that from. You are going to have to put a lot more flesh on the bones than that to explain what you are trying to say.
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Wrong, Norway are enmeshed in the EU's political project to a certain degree, ergo it is in the EU arena. Leave means leave; out is out.
Norway is not in th EU Jack....that's a fact.
'The EUs political project' was not on the ballot paper. Neither was 'EU arena'.
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Wrong, Norway are enmeshed in the EU's political project to a certain degree, ergo it is in the EU arena. Leave means leave; out is out.
You really don't get it do you.
The question was whether to remain a member of the EU or alternatively to leave the EU. If we end up like Norway the democratic mandate of the referendum has been fulfilled as we won't be a member of the EU any more, we will have left the EU.
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I see that Blair is campaigning for a kind of reinterpretation of Brexit. Oh well, that's probably swung it for a hard Brexit.
Interesting that both Blair and Jack Straw have been higher profile in the last few days than they have been for years - particularly with Chilcott out next week - do you think they know something about the findings of the inquiry that the rest of us don't yet?
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Interesting that both Blair and Jack Straw have been higher profile in the last few days than they have been for years - particularly with Chilcott out next week - do you think they know something about the findings of the inquiry that the rest of us don't yet?
I believe that the excrement/fan impact is scheduled for Wednesday.
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First of all Nigel and UKIP did see all this outcome as it was talked about months ago on their site. Secondly some official twatish organisation gave the Leave campaign to those wankers Vote.Leave, (not Farage and Leave.EU) so using them as the official stance on the EU is bogus. The whole thing has been a farce, but the outcome of leave will send hope and further referendums across the EU member states. ;D
Nigel and his ilk have contributed to the current mess. Nigel has dragged the good name of the UK through mud in the EU parliament. He is an embarrassment and the sooner he fucks off the better.
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Nigel and his ilk have contributed to the current mess. Nigel has dragged the good name of the UK through mud in the EU parliament. He is an embarrassment and the sooner he fucks off the better.
Look at the company he keeps ( note the Union Jack shoes) :o
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/jul/03/farage-murdoch-lebedev-and-fox-break-bread-as-told-by-lily-allen
Interesting!
I wonder what their agenda is.
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Norway is not in th EU Jack....that's a fact.
'The EUs political project' was not on the ballot paper. Neither was 'EU arena'.
Depends on what you mean by the EU. It is effected by its political project and its political rules which imposes itself on it. In my books that makes it in it.
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You really don't get it do you.
The question was whether to remain a member of the EU or alternatively to leave the EU. If we end up like Norway the democratic mandate of the referendum has been fulfilled as we won't be a member of the EU any more, we will have left the EU.
Your cognitive dissonance is really tugging at your emotional strings, Davey. Face facts, I'm right on this point.
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Nigel and his ilk have contributed to the current mess. Nigel has dragged the good name of the UK through mud in the EU parliament. He is an embarrassment and the sooner he fucks off the better.
That's your biased opinion and way off the mark.
Nigel has be spot on from day one.
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That's your biased opinion and way off the mark.
Nigel has be spot on from day one.
I see he has taken my advice and fucked off. Nice of him to do that and leave everybody else except Boris to clear up the shit. You must be very proud of the arsehole.
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I see he has taken my advice and fucked off. Nice of him to do that and leave everybody else except Boris to clear up the shit. You must be very proud of the arsehole.
::) Oh dear!!!
Firstly, he is not in power so what do you expect him to do? Secondly, there is talk that he will be playing some kind of advisory role with Leadsom's government, should she win. So he is quite willing to take part in the negotiations in some manner, and as you say, clear up the shit that the EU has imposed on us for the last three decades or so - when Maastricht was introduced.
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Dear Jackie Boy,
Well Leadsom is not going to win, to me it looks like May all the way, and now that he has stepped down as the UKIP leader ( his job is done ) could you be a pal and write to him and ask him to stand down as a MEP, after all his job is done ;)
Gonnagle.
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::) Oh dear!!!
Firstly, he is not in power so what do you expect him to do? Secondly, there is talk that he will be playing some kind of advisory role with Leadsom's government, should she win. So he is quite willing to take part in the negotiations in some manner, and as you say, clear up the shit that the EU has imposed on us for the last three decades or so - when Maastricht was introduced.
So let me get this straight. It will be a city elite, with a banker Prime minister who will represent Brexitters who voted for it to hurt the establishment.
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Dear Jackie Boy,
Well Leadsom is not going to win, to me it looks like May all the way, and now that he has stepped down as the UKIP leader ( his job is done ) could you be a pal and write to him and ask him to stand down as a MEP, after all his job is done ;)
Gonnagle.
You should know better than assume something about politics. May is not guaranteed and Leadsom has a good chance of winning, being a Leaver.
Farage is going to stay at the EP to check that the EU aren't stitching up our negotiations, and may even be advising them. The job isn't done until it is all signed and delivered to our satisfaction - so at least two years. Then he'll become an MP..... ;D
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You should know better than assume something about politics. May is not guaranteed and Leadsom has a good chance of winning, being a Leaver.
Farage is going to stay at the EP to check that the EU aren't stitching up our negotiations, and may even be advising them. The job isn't done until it is all signed and delivered to our satisfaction - so at least two years. Then he'll become an MP..... ;D
Farage is a banker (rhyming slang) and a craven coward. He needs to fuck off right now. Thousands of people are going to lose their jobs in the forthcoming recession, but Farage will be sitting pretty with his bankers money and his EU salary watching the destruction of the UK and united Europe.
There are no words to describe the contempt he deserves.
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So let me get this straight. It will be a city elite, with a banker Prime minister who will represent Brexitters who voted for it to hurt the establishment.
Stranger things have happened...
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Farage is a banker (rhyming slang) and a craven coward. He needs to fuck off right now. Thousands of people are going to lose their jobs in the forthcoming recession, but Farage will be sitting pretty with his bankers money and his EU salary watching the destruction of the UK and united Europe.
There are no words to describe the contempt he deserves.
You again...
So many assumptions there all topped off with venom and bile.
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You again...
Yep. You can't deny your beloved leader has deserted the bridge and yet he is still claiming his MEP salary. The man has no integrity.
So many assumptions there all topped off with venom and bile.
He's resigned his position as UKIP leader- yes or no?
He's still claiming his MEP salary despite being utterly opposed to the EU - yes or no?
The man is a charlatan, a cheat and a rogue. He's the biggest turd in British politics.
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Stranger things have happened...
argumentum ad aphorism
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Yep. You can't deny your beloved leader has deserted the bridge and yet he is still claiming his MEP salary. The man has no integrity.
He's resigned his position as UKIP leader- yes or no?
He's still claiming his MEP salary despite being utterly opposed to the EU - yes or no?
The man is a charlatan, a cheat and a rogue. He's the biggest turd in British politics.
He has a job to do in the EP to see we get the best deal and provide information etc. to the UK negotiation team. It is not over until all is signed and delivered to our satisfaction. Jeremy, calm down, you can't get to me all looks fine in the Leave camp. ;D
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He has a job to do in the EP to see we get the best deal and provide information etc. to the UK negotiation team. It is not over until all is signed and delivered to our satisfaction. Jeremy, calm down, you can't get to me all looks fine in the Leave camp. ;D
How often will he turn up?
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How often will he turn up?
You should know, NS, that the EP chamber is a joke. What he will be doing most of the time will be working behind the scenes, with his fellow MEPs, looking at how the negotiations are going.
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You should know, NS, that the EP chamber is a joke. What he will be doing most of the time will be working behind the scenes, with his fellow MEPs, looking at how the negotiations are going.
I was more thinking about attendance in committees but overall tell me about these negotiations and how they worked?
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Stranger things have happened...
Yes you've got Leadsom who has crashed the country touting herself as it's saviour. It don't get more bizarre than that.
Still, it pleases the axegrinders.
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He has a job to do in the EP
No he doesn't. He's a waste of a good chair in the EP.
to see we get the best deal and provide information etc. to the UK negotiation team.
He will not get that as an MEP. For a start, he frequently doesn't bother to turn up. And when he does, do you think anybody would give hime the time day.
It is not over until all is signed and delivered to our satisfaction. Jeremy, calm down, you can't get to me all looks fine in the Leave camp. ;D
There are lots of empty tents in the Leave camp. You have been deserted by two out of three of your steaming Leaders.
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I was more thinking about attendance in committees but overall tell me about these negotiations and how they worked?
"Worked" - pass tense? They haven't started yet.
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"Worked" - pass tense? They haven't started yet.
So as a jobbing ( or in Nigel's case non jobbing) MEP, what negotiations will he be doing?
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So as a jobbing ( or in Nigel's case non jobbing) MEP, what negotiations will he be doing?
If you look at my #109 I said he would be observing how things are going and advising the UK team, giving them his years of experience of dealing with the EU and their bureaucratic system.
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If you look at my #109 I said he would be observing how things are going and advising the UK team, giving them his years of experience of dealing with the EU and their bureaucratic system.
Actually you referred to MEPs not the negotiating team. And this raises the question of past negotiations again. Can you outline a time when he has been involved with such negotiations?
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Actually you referred to MEPs not the negotiating team. And this raises the question of past negotiations again. Can you outline a time when he has been involved with such negotiations?
"Past" - pass tense. Yet you posts before used the term "will be" - future tense. Do you actually know what you are trying to ask?
As I said he won't be directly involved in the negotiations, but will be able to assist the UK team into the machinations of the EU system, doing so with his fellow MEPs; that is his UKIP mates.
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"Past" - pass tense. Yet you posts before used the term "will be" - future tense. Do you actually know what you are trying to ask?
As I said he won't be directly involved in the negotiations, but will be able to assist the UK team into the machinations of the EU system,
Surely that only applies to someone who attended sufficient meetings with an intent other than showboating.
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If you look at my #109 I said he would be observing how things are going and advising the UK team, giving them his years of experience of dealing with the EU and their bureaucratic system.
He hasn't got any experience of dealing with the EU and their bureaucratic system, except in filling in the form to tell them which bank account to stuff full of his lovely juicy salary.
And filling in his expenses claims, of course.
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Surely that only applies to someone who attended sufficient meetings with an intent other than showboating.
What meetings are you referring to?
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He hasn't got any experience of dealing with the EU and their bureaucratic system, except in filling in the form to tell them which bank account to stuff full of his lovely juicy salary.
And filling in his expenses claims, of course.
And on what bases do you say that, other than your stupid bias?
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And on what bases do you say that, other than your stupid bias?
He's an MEP not a head of state or even government minister. The people our government has to negotiate with are other heads of state, not MEPs.
All Farage does is occasionally go to the EU parliament and rant at the officials and collect his salary for doing bugger all. He's an ex-banker with his snout in the trough.
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He's an MEP not a head of state or even government minister. The people our government has to negotiate with are other heads of state, not MEPs.
All Farage does is occasionally go to the EU parliament and rant at the officials and collect his salary for doing bugger all. He's an ex-banker with his snout in the trough.
That's your worthless opinion. ;D
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The plan becomes clearer with Mays appointment of Johnso and trip to Scotland.
U.K. From the outside will look like Merrie England, a kind of Disney version with pearly Kings etc.
Internally the UK will be English Nationalist with England owning Scotland.
In the meantime May has nothing to offer anybody who isn't English since the car has been crashed.
Genetically disgruntled brexiteers will be allowed to persecute the remain population
As a distraction from their handiwork.
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The plan becomes clearer with Mays appointment of Johnso and trip to Scotland.
U.K. From the outside will look like Merrie England, a kind of Disney version with pearly Kings etc.
Internally the UK will be English Nationalist with England owning Scotland.
In the meantime May has nothing to offer anybody who isn't English since the car has been crashed.
Genetically disgruntled brexiteers will be allowed to persecute the remain population
As a distraction from their handiwork.
Sadly (because you're deluded) you are wrong and way off the mark from what is reality. You will be amazed to find that that car will be shiny new and powerful, unlike your Jesus Christ who died and stayed dead.
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Sadly (because you're deluded) you are wrong and way off the mark from what is reality. You will be amazed to find that that car will be shiny new and powerful,
Don't tell me Jack, you don't as the advert says know how to fix it but you know a man who can.
The car may be fit for spare parts......Like Michael Gove and Nigel Farage.
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Don't tell me Jack, you don't as the advert says know how to fix it but you know a man who can.
The car may be fit for spare parts......Like Michael Gove and Nigel Farage.
You have proof it's crashed, do you?
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You have proof it's crashed, do you?
Yes, we've gone from fifth richest country to sixth after France. The number of racist incidents has gone up. The PM has had to have talks to try to stabilise the union. Investment and confidence has slowed which will slow growth.
For the Nth time of asking Jack, what is the plan?
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Yes, we've gone from fifth richest country to sixth after France. The number of racist incidents has gone up. The PM has had to have talks to try to stabilise the union. Investment and confidence has slowed which will slow growth.
For the Nth time of asking Jack, what is the plan?
And that you class as a crash?
The plan is in May-hem's hands.
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And that you class as a crash?
The plan is in May-hem's hands.
There is no plan Jack just a load of Santas wish-lists from fantasists and axegrinders.
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That's your worthless opinion. ;D
What about what I wrote was factually incorrect?
Your hero is an ex banker who is so unprincipled that he takes substantial quantities of money out of the organisation he allegedly decries.
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And that you class as a crash?
The plan is in May-hem's hands.
So you don't know what the plan is. You voted for Brexit with no clear idea what to do next.
Can you understand why many of us so angry about idiots like you.
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I reckon we will be experiencing the negative results of Brexit for the foreseeable future.
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Many leave idiots were angry at the remain idiots who were happy to maintain the status quo.
For a long time nobody listened to the concerns of those who became leavers. They were told it was all good for the economy, yet they did not see any benefits to this economic goodness. All they saw was zero, or unaffordable housing, overcrowded doctors surgeries and schools trying to cope with dozens of different languages. Add to this all the other things that was "good for them" like multiculturalism where their local area became like a foreign country and of course the fuck ups of the last Labour administration and the cuts of the Tories and you have the perfect storm.
Fancy giving the fuckwit plebs a vote. I mean ask them to pick a name for the new research vessel and they go for Boaty Mcboatface. They just love the opportunity to shove it up the political and social elite.
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Many leave idiots were angry at the remain idiots who were happy to maintain the status quo.
The status quo was a good thing.
For a long time nobody listened to the concerns of those who became leavers.
Yes they did and they told you the leavers that the concerns were baseless for the most part and the best way to deal with the problems of the EU is by fixing them, not trying to destroy it.
They were told it was all good for the economy, yet they did not see any benefits to this economic goodness.
What would Sunderland be like without the Nissan factory?
All they saw was zero, or unaffordable housing, overcrowded doctors surgeries and schools trying to cope with dozens of different languages.
These are problems of chronic underfunding by the UK government, not immigration. If you think all of these problems are going away now, I'm afraid you have a nasty shock coming to you.
Fancy giving the fuckwit plebs a vote. I mean ask them to pick a name for the new research vessel and they go for Boaty Mcboatface. They just love the opportunity to shove it up the political and social elite.
It just shows how dangerous it is to give uninformed people a vote. Democracy isn't just voting, it's making sure everybody is well informed. Unfortunately, our media is not fit for purpose in that respect. You have been fed lies about the EU by them for decades and as a result you have made a stupid decision.
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Your arrogance is astounding. Can you tell me how many of the 17,410,742 people were too thick to make an informed decision and how many of them were also racist bigots.
I voted to remain btw.
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Many leave idiots were angry at the remain idiots who were happy to maintain the status quo.
For a long time nobody listened to the concerns of those who became leavers. They were told it was all good for the economy, yet they did not see any benefits to this economic goodness. All they saw was zero, or unaffordable housing, overcrowded doctors surgeries and schools trying to cope with dozens of different languages. Add to this all the other things that was "good for them" like multiculturalism where their local area became like a foreign country and of course the fuck ups of the last Labour administration and the cuts of the Tories and you have the perfect storm.
Fancy giving the fuckwit plebs a vote. I mean ask them to pick a name for the new research vessel and they go for Boaty Mcboatface. They just love the opportunity to shove it up the political and social elite.
But what you call the fuckwits have the vote.
In the three Referenda they voted for first past the post, then in the Scottish referendum they gave Cameron the benefit of the doubt, then they voted to have £350 million pounds a week and no immigrants before the school summer hols.
In 2014 they voted UKIP in the EU elections but when asked to vote in the GE elections they voted in a largely pro EU Tory party and gave UKIP the bums rush presumably because th EU wasn't a topic serious enough for their consideration.
I think many of the fuckwitted as you call them didn't realise Brexit was a serious vote with a serious commitment and responsibility for the victorious. They never did the basic research to find out that there was no plan. We could have had a referendum with a proper set of alternatives in 2017,18 or 19or when the EU really was going tits up.
But you can ignore everything I've said if you can answer this............what's the plan?
And finally you never hear of buyers remorse after a GE................
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Your arrogance is astounding.
I'm not the one telling other people to shut up just because more uninformed people than informed people voted in the referendum.
Can you tell me how many of the 17,410,742 people were too thick to make an informed decision and how many of them were also racist bigots.
They were clearly all very badly informed. There is no case to leave the EU. The rhetoric of the Leave campaigners was a rhetoric of lies and fear tactics.
I voted to remain btw.
Good for you. Surely the reasoning you used to come to that decision still stands. Why are you defending the Leavers?
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There is no plan Jack just a load of Santas wish-lists from fantasists and axegrinders.
We knew from the start that the government would deal with the outcome of the referendum which ever way it fell. So what are you moaning and groaning about? A plan is being forged by the government as we speak.
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What about what I wrote was factually incorrect?
If you think it is fact then you'll have the proof to show us...
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So you don't know what the plan is. You voted for Brexit with no clear idea what to do next.
Can you understand why many of us so angry about idiots like you.
I voted to get the UK out of the EU. I have a plan or idea about that but I'm not in power so I can't implement it.
Can you understand why many of us are so angry about the idiots in Brussels?
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We knew from the start that the government would deal with the outcome of the referendum which ever way it fell. So what are you moaning and groaning about? A plan is being forged by the government as we speak.
No the referendum was foisted on people. You cannot argue trust for the government and yet ignore all their warnings about the consequence of Brexit. Such a schizoidal argument.
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I'm not the one telling other people to shut up just because more uninformed people than informed people voted in the referendum.
They were clearly all very badly informed. There is no case to leave the EU. The rhetoric of the Leave campaigners was a rhetoric of lies and fear tactics.
Good for you. Surely the reasoning you used to come to that decision still stands. Why are you defending the Leavers?
You must have one hell of a huge EU pension to talk this bollocks!!!
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No the referendum was foisted on people.
Foisted?
You cannot argue trust for the government and yet ignore all their warnings about the consequence of Brexit. Such a schizoidal argument.
Who said anything about trust?
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Dear Jackie boy,
I voted to get the UK out of the EU. I have a plan or idea about that but I'm not in power so I can't implement it.
Lets hear it then, post it on twitter for the world to see, the government have not got a clue, they could use all the help they can get.
No one in power thought this was going to happen, they all thought it would be close, but they never thought the country would actually vote to leave, why!! because that would be crackers.
So we now have a country lost, each and everyone of us asking "what are we going to do now" oh sorry! our Nicola knows what she is going to do, but she is waiting, waiting for the next massive Tory blunder, although it is hard to see how they can surpass Brexit.
So give us a ray of hope, tell us all your master plan. ;)
Gonnagle.
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Dear Jackie boy,
Lets hear it then, post it on twitter for the world to see, the government have not got a clue, they could use all the help they can get.
No one in power thought this was going to happen, they all thought it would be close, but they never thought the country would actually vote to leave, why!! because that would be crackers.
So we now have a country lost, each and everyone of us asking "what are we going to do now" oh sorry! our Nicola knows what she is going to do, but she is waiting, waiting for the next massive Tory blunder, although it is hard to see how they can surpass Brexit.
So give us a ray of hope, tell us all your master plan. ;)
Gonnagle.
Mines the same as Farage's. All they have to do is ask Farage and co. and everything will be solved. Oh they can't, can they, because this would hurt their little prides to admit that UKIP got it right right from the start, and that they were spineless blind twats.
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Dear Jackie boy,
Oh yes! Farage :o I completely forgot about him, the fourth horseman, dePfeffel, Davis, Fox and Farage, let the horsemen ride out. >:(
But I thought Nigel's plan was the destruction of the EU, will that help old blighty, will all our pains suddenly disappear if we see Brussels come crashing down, will all the migrants turn around, get back in their boats and say, those Europeans are mental, we are better off in our own war torn country.
Gonnagle.
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If you think it is fact then you'll have the proof to show us...
Ex Banker:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Farage#Early_life.2C_education_and_early_career
EU MEP:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Farage#European_Parliament
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I voted to get the UK out of the EU. I have a plan or idea about that but I'm not in power so I can't implement it.
So you are happy that the government will be dealing with it in the best way they see fit:
We knew from the start that the government would deal with the outcome of the referendum which ever way it fell. So what are you moaning and groaning about? A plan is being forged by the government as we speak.
And if they conclude that a Norway type deal is the best option, you'll be happy.
Can you understand why many of us are so angry about the idiots in Brussels?
Nigel Farage is one of those idiots, at least when he turns up to collect his salary and expenses.
More seriously, there are definitely problems with the EU, but it would have been more constructive to try to fix them than run away.
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Dear Jackie boy,
Lets hear it then, post it on twitter for the world to see, the government have not got a clue, they could use all the help they can get.
Actually, I think they have got a clue. They will either negotiate a Norway type deal or they will negotiate a terrible deal, put it to another referendum, lose and then not leave the EU.
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All they have to do is ask Farage and co.
The same Farage who still has his snout in the MEP trough?
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I'm not the one telling other people to shut up just because more uninformed people than informed people voted in the referendum.
They were clearly all very badly informed. There is no case to leave the EU. The rhetoric of the Leave campaigners was a rhetoric of lies and fear tactics.
Good for you. Surely the reasoning you used to come to that decision still stands. Why are you defending the Leavers?
First of all, I have not told anyone to shut up.
Second, they were all badly informed? Do you think there was any way they would ever have had all the information then neede to make an informed decision.
Third, do you think certain categories of people should have been barred from voting? As an example, those who did not possess the mental capacity to make an informed decision?
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First of all, I have not told anyone to shut up.
Second, they were all badly informed?
Clearly. They made the wrong decision.
Do you think there was any way they would ever have had all the information then neede to make an informed decision.
Plenty of people made the right decision, just not enough.
Third, do you think certain categories of people should have been barred from voting?
Yes, the category of "people on the electoral roll".
This country has always been a representative democracy. We elect MPs to make the decisions and then kick them out if they make bad ones. This is a referendum that should never have happened. We only had it to save the Tory party from splitting.
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But there was a referendum to leave the EU, just as there was one to join the EEC. If the choice to join went to the nation why not the choice to leave.
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But there was a referendum to leave the EU, just as there was one to join the EEC. If the choice to join went to the nation why not the choice to leave.
There has never been a referendum to join the EEC/EU.
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There has never been a referendum to join the EEC/EU.
True
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Okay, to continue membership then. Joe public were good enough then.
I understand you have a massive hump on as the result did not go your way but I do not get your position on voting. Do you think the Scottish independence decision should have been left to the general population?
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Okay, to continue membership then. Joe public were good enough then.
I would argue that one shouldn't have been held either.
IDo you think the Scottish independence decision should have been left to the general population?
No.
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Okay, to continue membership then. Joe public were good enough then.
I understand you have a massive hump on as the result did not go your way but I do not get your position on voting. Do you think the Scottish independence decision should have been left to the general population?
Not quite.
Both the earlier referendum and the recent one were devised for party management reasons. The primary purpose of Cameron's referendum was kill off the Neanderthal wing of the Conservative Party. Wilson's referendum was to shut Tony Benn up.
Wilson was a much better party manager than Cameron. Whatever happens in the future, Cameron is assured of a place in the history books - as a fool and as afailure.
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Dear Jackie boy,
Oh yes! Farage :o I completely forgot about him, the fourth horseman, dePfeffel, Davis, Fox and Farage, let the horsemen ride out. >:(
But I thought Nigel's plan was the destruction of the EU, will that help old blighty, will all our pains suddenly disappear if we see Brussels come crashing down, will all the migrants turn around, get back in their boats and say, those Europeans are mental, we are better off in our own war torn country.
Gonnagle.
How can you forget about wonderful Farage!!...?
Well yes, but you don't press the button whilst you are still in the building, we need to get out first. You're looking at this the wrong way, the EU is evil and needs to be destroyed.
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Ex Banker:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Farage#Early_life.2C_education_and_early_career
EU MEP:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Farage#European_Parliament
You don't know what else he does because you're not with him to see this. You have no definitive proof.
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Not quite.
Both the earlier referendum and the recent one were devised for party management reasons. The primary purpose of Cameron's referendum was kill off the Neanderthal wing of the Conservative Party. Wilson's referendum was to shut Tony Benn up.
Wilson was a much better party manager than Cameron. Whatever happens in the future, Cameron is assured of a place in the history books - as a fool and as afailure.
He makes Ted Heath look good.
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So you are happy that the government will be dealing with it in the best way they see fit:
We have no choice that is the situation.
And if they conclude that a Norway type deal is the best option, you'll be happy.
I'm not happy about any of this, but we have no choice, that is how things have been set up.
More seriously, there are definitely problems with the EU, but it would have been more constructive to try to fix them than run away.
The EU is a problem like a turd in the bath, you remove it and flush it away.
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You don't know what else he does because you're not with him to see this. You have no definitive proof.
I didn't say he doesn't do anything else but he still has his greedy snout in the trough at an institution he despises. Surely you should realise from that the man has no integrity.
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We have no choice that is the situation.
I'm not happy about any of this, but we have no choice, that is how things have been set up.
So we are probably going to end up in a situation with which you are not happy and I am not happy although I suspect I'll be marginally happier than you.
It's a total shambles isn't it?
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Not quite.
Both the earlier referendum and the recent one were devised for party management reasons. The primary purpose of Cameron's referendum was kill off the Neanderthal wing of the Conservative Party. Wilson's referendum was to shut Tony Benn up.
Wilson was a much better party manager than Cameron. Whatever happens in the future, Cameron is assured of a place in the history books - as a fool and as afailure.
I still struggle with why they excluded EU citizens working here from the franchise.
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I still struggle with why they excluded EU citizens working here from the franchise.
Indeed - those most affected by the vote and yet denied a say.
Surely the electorate should have been the same as for an EU election, rather than a UK general election, given that the issue was ... err ... the EU.
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Indeed - those most affected by the vote and yet denied a say.
Surely the electorate should have been the same as for an EU election, rather than a UK general election, given that the issue was ... err ... the EU.
The problem I have is if you were pro EU, surely you argue for them to be included. I don't understand Cameron's position on this.
We had, as a result of this, a member of the Scottish parliament without a vote in the referendum!.
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The problem I have is if you were pro EU, surely you argue for them to be included. I don't understand Cameron's position on this.
We had, as a result of this, a member of the Scottish parliament without a vote in the referendum!.
Another of Cameron's failures of judgement
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I still struggle with why they excluded EU citizens working here from the franchise.
And British ex-pats living in Europe.
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Another of Cameron's failures of judgement
There are currently about three million non British EU citizens resident in the UK and about a million Brits living in other parts of the EU. That's four million votes that are most likely Remainers. The actual margin was less than two million.
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There are currently about three million non British EU citizens resident in the UK and about a million Brits living in other parts of the EU. That's four million votes that are most likely Remainers. The actual margin was less than two million.
I thought ex-pats could vote, but not non British EU nationals resident in the UK.
Although if that were the case I've no idea where their votes would have ended up in the country, seeing as the results seemed to be entirely UK based except for Gibraltar.
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I still struggle with why they excluded EU citizens working here from the franchise.
Because it was a referendum for the owners of the country, not the users. People who are citizens. Consider citizenship to be akin to shareholding only shareholders have a say in a company's future, customers do not.
Do non-citizens of Switzerland have voting rights in that country's referenda?
By becoming a citizen an individual is acknowledging a close intimate relationship with a country including a commitment to making its future his or her future. Non-citizens have not made that commitment, hypothetically they always have their own country to return to. Non-British EU citizens can vote in local elections but they do not have any say in the UK's ultimate level of management because they have not made that formal commitment to the UK. If they are withholding their commitment why should they have any say?
I know that PD is rather miffed because some of his colleagues and friends were denied referendum votes. Has he asked them why - after living in this country for many years - they have not taken up citizenship? I dare say their opinions may well have been much closer to mine than to a Brexiter, but if they have not sought to become part of the UK why should they have any say in its future?
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Leaving your opinion aside, I struggle why someone who wanted to win the referendum excluded these voters?
And that's leaving aside your take that Christian Allard MSP isn't making a commitment.
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Leaving your opinion aside, I struggle why someone who wanted to win the referendum excluded these voters?
And that's leaving aside your take that Christian Allard MSP isn't making a commitment.
I don't know whether or not Christian Allard is a UK citizen - I have found nothing to say that he is not. There is nothing to prevent him from having two nationalities.
Had non-UK citizens been allowed to vote, and the result had very narrowly been different, can you not imagine the organised tirade coming from the losing camp along the lines that votes had been bought or voters had been bussed in ... or whatever? Cameron excluded the non-citizens because this was one occasion when to include them may have been unconstitutional.
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I don't know whether or not Christian Allard is a UK citizen - I have found nothing to say that he is not. There is nothing to prevent him from having two nationalities.
Had non-UK citizens been allowed to vote, and the result had very narrowly been different, can you not imagine the organised tirade coming from the losing camp along the lines that votes had been bought or voters had been bussed in ... or whatever? Cameron excluded the non-citizens because this was one occasion when to include them may have been unconstitutional.
He isn't. He didn't have a vote which is sort of why I mentioned him. Please explain how it would gave been non constitutional for him to have a vote here as opposed to EU elections with particular reference to our 'constitution".
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Because it was a referendum for the owners of the country, not the users. People who are citizens. Consider citizenship to be akin to shareholding only shareholders have a say in a company's future, customers do not.
Anybody who has made their home here should have had a vote. It affects all of us not just the ones with a British passport.
Do non-citizens of Switzerland have voting rights in that country's referenda?
I'm not sure why you think Switzerland's arrangements are relevant.
I know that PD is rather miffed because some of his colleagues and friends were denied referendum votes. Has he asked them why - after living in this country for many years - they have not taken up citizenship?
Because an EU citizen doesn't need to - or at least didn't.
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So we are probably going to end up in a situation with which you are not happy and I am not happy although I suspect I'll be marginally happier than you.
It's a total shambles isn't it?
The only difference between you and me on this matter is that I have the pleasure of knowing that the EU is falling apart from within on several fronts. ;D ;D ;D
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I still struggle with why they excluded EU citizens working here from the franchise.
Because it was about the people of the UK not them.
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There are currently about three million non British EU citizens resident in the UK and about a million Brits living in other parts of the EU. That's four million votes that are most likely Remainers. The actual margin was less than two million.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Because it was about the people of the UK not them.
First of all, you mistake the question. Were I looking to get a Remain vote, as Cameron apparently did, I was wondering why you wouldn't include EU nationals?
As to your approach, why is Christian Allard not of the people of the UK, given he is a MSP and pays taxes here? You sound a bit blood and soil here.
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First of all, you mistake the question. Were I looking to get a Remain vote, as Cameron apparently did, I was wondering why you wouldn't include EU nationals?
He had his backbenchers and Eurosceptics to contend with.
As to your approach, why is Christian Allard not of the people of the UK, given he is a MSP and pays taxes here? You sound a bit blood and soil here.
Who?
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He had his backbenchers and Eurosceptics to contend with.
Who?
But he had an easy majority in parliament t support him had he wanted.
As for Christian, Google (other search engines are available) is your friend. I have already talked about him.
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But he had an easy majority in parliament t support him had he wanted.
But there are the behind the scenes activities that could have put pressure on him and the reaction to the idea of fixing the result by allowing those to vote that shouldn't be. If he had won by these mean, and other dodgy or suspect methods, there would have been civil war in the Tory party and he wanted to keep the peace hence the referendum in the first place.
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But there are the behind the scenes activities that could have put pressure on him and the reaction to the idea of fixing the result by allowing those to vote that shouldn't be. If he had won by these mean, and other dodgy or suspect methods, there would have been civil war in the Tory party and he wanted to keep the peace hence the referendum in the first place.
Yes, that could be true? Any evidence on this point?
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there would have been civil war in the Tory party and he wanted to keep the peace hence the referendum in the first place.
So you admit it is just an exercise in saving one particular party. Seems a bit of a small reward for destroying the United Kingdom.
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Dear Nice Work if you can get it,
The plan! part of the plan!! Theresa May's first Prime Ministers Question Time, five grand a day per head for a team of Lawyers to steer us through brexit, glad to see my taxes being so well spent. >:(
Gonnagle.
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Dear Nice Work if you can get it,
The plan! part of the plan!! Theresa May's first Prime Ministers Question Time, five grand a day per head for a team of Lawyers to steer us through brexit, glad to see my taxes being so well spent. >:(
Gonnagle.
At 200 working days per year for two years, that's two million pounds per lawyer. How many lawyers have they got? Still, the money can com out of the £350 million... oh wait, that was a lie, wasn't it.
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Yes, that could be true? Any evidence on this point?
Their past performance and human nature.......and reading between the lines...
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So you admit it is just an exercise in saving one particular party. Seems a bit of a small reward for destroying the United Kingdom.
You really have cracked; "So you admit it..."
Admit what? I'm not a Tory. I've never denied that Cameron did it to keep his party together. You really are clutching at straws here to get at me.
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You really have cracked; "So you admit it..."
Admit what?
That this was an exercise to save the Tory Party.
I'm not a Tory.
Never said you were.
I've never denied that Cameron did it to keep his party together. You really are clutching at straws here to get at me.
You need to realise the enormous damage you have done.
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Dear Nice Work if you can get it,
The plan! part of the plan!! Theresa May's first Prime Ministers Question Time, five grand a day per head for a team of Lawyers to steer us through brexit, glad to see my taxes being so well spent. >:(
Gonnagle.
It's called investment in the future.
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It's called investment in the future.
That we woudn't need if we had decided to stay in the EU.
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At 200 working days per year for two years, that's two million pounds per lawyer. How many lawyers have they got? Still, the money can com out of the £350 million... oh wait, that was a lie, wasn't it.
It can come out of the 250 billion that Carney is giving to the bwankers, one egregious sum you don't seem to be bothered about......perhaps because it is going to your EU friends the bwankers.
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You need to realise the enormous damage you have done.
You sad sausage! What are you talking about?
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It can come out of the 250 billion that Carney is giving to the bwankers, one egregious sum you don't seem to be bothered about......perhaps because it is going to your EU friends the bwankers.
You mean the £250 billion that he has set aside because off the stupidity of the Leave voters? That £250 billion?
Certainly it makes the £9 billion of our EU membership fee look pretty small.
You don't like us setting aside £250 billion for the banks? It's your fucking fault we have to do it, moron.
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That we woudn't need if we had decided to stay in the EU.
You have evidence for this, do you? Or is it just more of your ramblings?
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You have evidence for this, do you? Or is it just more of your ramblings?
You're asking me for evidence that we wouldn't need the lawyers on the Brexit team if we weren't leaving the EU?
Honestly, do you bother to read the words that you write?
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You mean the £250 billion that he has set aside because off the stupidity of the Leave voters? That £250 billion?
Certainly it makes the £9 billion of our EU membership fee look pretty small.
You don't like us setting aside £250 billion for the banks? It's your fucking fault we have to do it, moron.
We are all in this mess because of the stupid bankers so why are you so content to give those useless idiots loads of money?
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You're asking me for evidence that we wouldn't need the lawyers on the Brexit team if we weren't leaving the EU?
Honestly, do you bother to read the words that you write?
No, learn to read and follow an argument. I'm asking you for proof that we would be better of in the long run by staying in the EU.
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Dear Jackie boy,
It's called, We don't have a plan let's ask some expensive lawyers.
>:(
Gonnagle.
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Dear Jackie boy,
It's called, We don't have a plan let's ask some expensive lawyers.
>:(
Gonnagle.
You need the lawyers regardless.
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We are all in this mess because of the stupid bankers so why are you so content to give those useless idiots loads of money?
We are in this mess because of the Brexit vote. The £250 billion has been set aside as a direct consequence of the Brexit vote. If we had voted Remain the money wouldn't be there.
I cannot believe your tactics. Not content to gloat over our stupidity and the misfortune that would hit everybody if the EU collapsed, you're trying to deny the direct consequences of your actions.
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We are in this mess because of the Brexit vote. The £250 billion has been set aside as a direct consequence of the Brexit vote. If we had voted Remain the money wouldn't be there.
I cannot believe your tactics. Not content to gloat over our stupidity and the misfortune that would hit everybody if the EU collapsed, you're trying to deny the direct consequences of your actions.
Many of the Brexiteers have their heads firmly stuck up their rear ends where the consequences of their stupidity is concerned.
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I agree with you 100% floo. Unfortunately the Brexit voters think the same about us!
Water off a duck's back I suppose.
We're not out yet, it will be a long job with many negotiations and anything could happen in the process.
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It's good business for lawyers, accountants and other paper pushers - estimated govt. (ie from tax) cost of up to £5 Billion over the next decade, with up to 10000 additional staff.
"This is the biggest transformational project the UK has ever taken"
(Source: Various senior officials and consultants as reported by The Times 20/07/16).
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Dear Udayana,
cost of up to £5 Billion over the next decade,
Jack Knave will be so pleased he is keeping the wheels of industry turning. >:(
What's the old saying :( One Mans Misery Is Another Mans Fortune >:(
Gonnagle.
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By gum, Gonners, you're right. A great British industry (law) will be rejuvenated by Brexit. Could I add also that removal companies will be feeling perky, as more and more companies want to be moved to Paris, Frankfurt, etc. Then there are the undertakers, let's not forget them.
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There is going to be (or might already have been) a programme on Five Live with a reporter talking to people in what she refers to as brexit Street'. If I happen to find myself listening to it by mistake, I shall immediately switch off. The excerpt from it showed yet again how many people thought only of immigrants 'flooding' the country. No consideration of the future of UK, Europe, possible world conflicts, trade etc, improvements in scientific research, etc, etc, etc. I hope they will be called upon during the next twenty, thirty, fifty years and more to explain to my granddaughters' families the backward step they took for the country.
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Isn't the cost of EU membership something less than the price of a pint per person per week?
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We are in this mess because of the Brexit vote. The £250 billion has been set aside as a direct consequence of the Brexit vote. If we had voted Remain the money wouldn't be there.
I cannot believe your tactics. Not content to gloat over our stupidity and the misfortune that would hit everybody if the EU collapsed, you're trying to deny the direct consequences of your actions.
You need to educate yourself and look and see the bigger picture here.
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You need to educate yourself and look and see the bigger picture here.
You were the one complaining about the £250 billion. I was merely pointing out that it is there because of Brexit. This is an undeniable fact.
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Isn't the cost of EU membership something less than the price of a pint per person per week?
A pint of what? ;D