Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Walt Zingmatilder on July 03, 2016, 06:47:30 PM
-
Two stories Regarding Leadsom.
UKIP paymaster Arron Banks offers to fund her campaign. SourceBBC
Refuses to rule out Farage as part of negotiating team. Source Daily Mail.
-
Two stories Regarding Leadsom.
UKIP paymaster Arron Banks offers to fund her campaign. SourceBBC
Refuses to rule out Farage as part of negotiating team. Source Daily Mail.
Seems to be a growing narrative that she is the Kippers' choice.
Amazing as well just how much she has managed to completely change her views in a few short years. This is her in 2013:
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/2013-andrea-leadsom-warns-leaving-085020656.html
-
I said a day or so that I didn't know much about her, have been learning a little ever since. I don't care about anyone offering to fund her campaign, doesn't mean they will be accepted. More concerned about her not ruing Farage out as part of the negotiating team, though that report does come from the Daily Mail.
-
Anyone wanting to hear/know more about Andrea Leadsom, if you haven't already seen the programme, she was interviewed this morning by Andrew Marr and gives reasons for Prof Davey's comment on changing her mind about the EU and Vlad's comment on whether or not to bring Nigel Farage into negotiations.
Here's the link to iplayer, the Marr/Leadsom interview is from 26mins in and lasts roughly 10mins:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07k5s9c/the-andrew-marr-show-03072016
This is the second time I've seen her interviewed by Andrew Marr and I still stand-by my originally comments on the 'leaders' thread. As a candidate for a PM to negotiate our leaving Europe she has a lot of experience of the EU as she explains in the above interview.
-
Anyone wanting to hear/know more about Andrea Leadsom, if you haven't already seen the programme, she was interviewed this morning by Andrew Marr and gives reasons for Prof Davey's comment on changing her mind about the EU and Vlad's comment on whether or not to bring Nigel Farage into negotiations.
Here's the link to iplayer, the Marr/Leadsom interview is from 26mins in and lasts roughly 10mins:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07k5s9c/the-andrew-marr-show-03072016
This is the second time I've seen her interviewed by Andrew Marr and I still stand-by my originally comments on the 'leaders' thread. As a candidate for a PM to negotiate our leaving Europe she has a lot of experience of the EU as she explains in the above interview.
Anyone who would allow Farage anywhere near the negotiations wants their head examining.
-
Anyone wanting to hear/know more about Andrea Leadsom, if you haven't already seen the programme, she was interviewed this morning by Andrew Marr and gives reasons for Prof Davey's comment on changing her mind about the EU and Vlad's comment on whether or not to bring Nigel Farage into negotiations.
Here's the link to iplayer, the Marr/Leadsom interview is from 26mins in and lasts roughly 10mins:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07k5s9c/the-andrew-marr-show-03072016
Yes I saw this - it wasn't an explanation as to why she made the most astonishing u-turn on the topic, merely a series of sound bits about how great brexit would be.
Surely someone who has made such a shift in their views would be able to explain how this came about. Or is she just another politician nailing her colours to the mast of most convenience to her political ambitions.
This is the second time I've seen her interviewed by Andrew Marr and I still stand-by my originally comments on the 'leaders' thread. As a candidate for a PM to negotiate our leaving Europe she has a lot of experience of the EU as she explains in the above interview.
The fact it is only the second time you've seen her interviewed speaks volumes for her massive lack of experience.
Sure she has experience as an investment banker prior to joining parliament (with a level of incompetence - check out her involvement with Barings), but that doesn't mean she has anything like the experience of the political leadership and process needed for the Brexit negotiations. Don't forget she's been an MP for just 6 years and a junior minister (not leading a department, not in cabinet) for 2 years.
So she perhaps has the experience to be part of the team involved in brexit negotiations, she is far, far too inexperienced to lead that team, let alone be PM.
-
Yes I saw this - it wasn't an explanation as to why she made the most astonishing u-turn on the topic, merely a series of sound bits about how great brexit would be.
Surely someone who has made such a shift in their views would be able to explain how this came about
. . .
Probably got quite a lot to do with her new best friend - Arron Banks
-
Two stories Regarding Leadsom.
UKIP paymaster Arron Banks offers to fund her campaign. SourceBBC
Refuses to rule out Farage as part of negotiating team. Source Daily Mail.
UKIP getting in through the catflap, OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-
Yes I saw this - it wasn't an explanation as to why she made the most astonishing u-turn on the topic, merely a series of sound bits about how great brexit would be.
Surely someone who has made such a shift in their views would be able to explain how this came about. Or is she just another politician nailing her colours to the mast of most convenience to her political ambitions.
The fact it is only the second time you've seen her interviewed speaks volumes for her massive lack of experience.
Sure she has experience as an investment banker prior to joining parliament (with a level of incompetence - check out her involvement with Barings), but that doesn't mean she has anything like the experience of the political leadership and process needed for the Brexit negotiations. Don't forget she's been an MP for just 6 years and a junior minister (not leading a department, not in cabinet) for 2 years.
So she perhaps has the experience to be part of the team involved in brexit negotiations, she is far, far too inexperienced to lead that team, let alone be PM.
No, I entirely disagree. Ms Leadsom explained very clearly her reason for her change of mind - that through her own 'Fresh Start' programme she and her colleagues realised that the EU could not be reformed; and how the EU has changed considerably since she first became an MP. She also mentioned the risks of staying in the EU.
She seems to me a steady, stable personality and because of this, I cannot see her putting herself in a position of running for PM if she thought she was not up to the job. Also, she is now in second place after Theresa May and seems to be continuing to gain support from fellow party members.
-
No, I entirely disagree. Ms Leadsom explained very clearly her reason for her change of mind - that through her own 'Fresh Start' programme she and her colleagues realised that the EU could not be reformed; and how the EU has changed considerably since she first became an MP. She also mentioned the risks of staying in the EU.
She seems to me a steady, stable personality and because of this, I cannot see her putting herself in a position of running for PM if she thought she was not up to the job. Also, she is now in second place after Theresa May and seems to be continuing to gain support from fellow party members.
That link to Arron Banks is really worrying. My concern would be:
Vote Leadsom get UKIP:
-
That link to Arron Banks is really worrying. My concern would be:
Vote Leadsom get UKIP:
Would Arron Banks come into the equation again? I mean he funded Brexit, but does that mean he would be any part of the leaving the EU negotiations? I really couldn't comment.
-
Andrea Leadsom, your TorKIP candidate?
She helped crash the car and now wants the keys.
-
Just when you thought it coulkdn't get any worse Leadsom the TorKIP candidate is leading May in the Tory voter polls.
When Brexitters fuck the country they don't do it by halves.
-
No, I entirely disagree. Ms Leadsom explained very clearly her reason for her change of mind - that through her own 'Fresh Start' programme she and her colleagues realised that the EU could not be reformed; and how the EU has changed considerably since she first became an MP. She also mentioned the risks of staying in the EU.
She seems to me a steady, stable personality and because of this, I cannot see her putting herself in a position of running for PM if she thought she was not up to the job. Also, she is now in second place after Theresa May and seems to be continuing to gain support from fellow party members.
I don't see the "steady and stable", she is hardly consistent and I say this recognising that anyone can change their mind. I'm sure she presents herself as calm and confident.
-
Just when you thought it coulkdn't get any worse Leadsom the TorKIP candidate is leading May in the Tory voter polls.
When Brexitters fuck the country they don't do it by halves.
There is also a disconnect here in that while this woman may well be known locally and in Tory circles I'd never heard of her until she popped up in this referendum.
The anonymous potential PM - no wonder some of us Scots want out.
-
Just when you thought it coulkdn't get any worse Leadsom the TorKIP candidate is leading May in the Tory voter polls.
When Brexitters fuck the country they don't do it by halves.
The Tory faithful have a habit of doing this - they voted in IDS instead of Ken Clarke. I suppose they are often to the right of the MPs, and probably Europe was a factor then as well.
-
I don't see the "steady and stable", she is hardly consistent and I say this recognising that anyone can change their mind. I'm sure she presents herself as calm and confident.
Vote leave of whom Leadsom was a part had a party political broadcast where they showed a hospital waiting room cleared of EU nationals.
Now she is saying that EU nationals will not be cleared out.
This woman will say anything and be anyone to anybody to get power.
-
Vote leave of whom Leadsom was a part had a party political broadcast where they showed a hospital waiting room cleared of EU nationals.
Now she is saying that EU nationals will not be cleared out.
This woman will say anything and be anyone to anybody to get power.
My memory of that film is that the waiting room was all white, and they were smiling, whereas the other shot was of lots of non-whites, all looking miserable.
-
Hang on ......Nigel farage leaves politics, Leadsom steps up as TorKIP leader.....
........Sounds like a job for Ace Ventura.
-
So you guys are for Theresa May? I guess because she is from the 'remain' camp and of course has experience as a senior politician. But she didn't run much of a remain campaign and her heart isn't really in leaving the EU, surely. So is she the best candidate for the leaving the EU negotiations?
As, someone (an MP said recently - sorry, can't remember who!) Andrea Leadsom has the most experience of the EU out of all the five candidates.
Vlad, I wouldn't read too much into Ms Leadsom having connections to UKIP.... I think she is genuinely concerned about the UK's future and where we go from here.
(Sorry, I meant to be more articulate but I'm tired and the old grey matter is saying time to hit the sack! Also, if anyone replies, I won't be able to get back to you now for a couple of days.... no fancy 'phones round 'ere... at least, I don't have one!)
-
I don't have a fancy 'phone either SP, so you are not alone there.
There's more to being the Tory leader than the EU. Theresa May (I've remembered at last to put the 'h' in her name!), than just being a Remainer.
However as I am not likely ever to be a Tory voter, it is of purely academic interest to me.
I should really be more concerned about the new Labour leader, if and when Jeremy Corbyn eventually resigns. I had hopes for him at one time, it all seems quite sad now and I haven't a clue who will take his place.
-
However as I am not likely ever to be a Tory voter, it is of purely academic interest to me.
Whoever wins the Tory race will be prime minister, at least for a bit. It's not only of academic interest.
-
I doubt the Tories will be in for much longer jeremy but I don't have a crystal ball. Who knows? Theresa May (if she wins) - may- turn out to have a lot of things up her sleeve and capture the imaginations of the voters. Interesting times ahead. Labour have to get their act together.
-
Whoever wins the Tory race will be prime minister, at least for a bit. It's not only of academic interest.
But Labour are hardly electable. if Labour splits down its "socialist" and "conservative working class" fracture line, then UKIP may emerge as the largest party - or at least hold the balance of power.
-
But Labour are hardly electable. if Labour splits down its "socialist" and "conservative working class" fracture line, then UKIP may emerge as the largest party - or at least hold the balance of power.
The 'First past the post' voting system doesn't work well if there is one major party and two minor ones, which seems a possibility. The major party tends to sweep the board. Corbyn and his legacy might well keep the Tories in power for a very long time, but I suspect that enthusiasm for UKIP will fade as all the consequences of Brexit become obvious to all.
-
I doubt the Tories will be in for much longer jeremy but I don't have a crystal ball. Who knows? Theresa May (if she wins) - may- turn out to have a lot of things up her sleeve and capture the imaginations of the voters. Interesting times ahead. Labour have to get their act together.
Well if they stay till they need to hold an election, that's 2020 and in the interim carry out the intended boundary changes, then they are going to be very difficult to beat in 2020.
-
LA
Your characterisation of First Past the Post is spot on, but I'm recalling the last general election a year ago when Labour's potential success was wrecked partly by "Tribal Labour" giving UKIP a couple of million votes or so.
If there is continued confusion and uncertainty it is this section of the electorate - together with its Conservative equivalent - which may perceive UKIP as a legitimate repository for its vote.
-
LA
Your characterisation of First Past the Post is spot on, but I'm recalling the last general election a year ago when Labour's potential success was wrecked partly by "Tribal Labour" giving UKIP a couple of million votes or so.
If there is continued confusion and uncertainty it is this section of the electorate - together with its Conservative equivalent - which may perceive UKIP as a legitimate repository for its vote.
If disillusioned Labour voters switched to UKIP that might give UKIP a handful of seats but the Tories would probably be the overall beneficiaries.
-
Oh dear - it appears that Leadsom's claims to huge experience prior to entering parliament are crumbling as her cv is revealed to be just a wee bit 'economical with the truth'.
So her claims to have managed big teams, little teams and huge funds has been flatly denied by one of her ex colleagues at Invesco, Robert Stephens who has said 'she did not manage any teams, large or small, and she certainly did not manage any funds'. And apparently the other experience she claimed, working as managing director at De Putron Fund Management Ltd is also untrue - apparently she was just a marketing director, and also the company is run by her sister's husband!!!
And just to cap it all she hasn't published her tax returns (unlike May and Gove) amid claims of using aggressive tax avoidance schemes.
Hmm
-
Oh dear - it appears that Leadsom's claims to huge experience prior to entering parliament are crumbling as her cv is revealed to be just a wee bit 'economical with the truth'.
So her claims to have managed big teams, little teams and huge funds has been flatly denied by one of her ex colleagues at Invesco, Robert Stephens who has said 'she did not manage any teams, large or small, and she certainly did not manage any funds'. And apparently the other experience she claimed, working as managing director at De Putron Fund Management Ltd is also untrue - apparently she was just a marketing director, and also the company is run by her sister's husband!!!
And just to cap it all she hasn't published her tax returns (unlike May and Gove) amid claims of using aggressive tax avoidance schemes.
Hmm
The UKIP connection would be more than enough to put me off.
-
The UKIP connection would be more than enough to put me off.
I think even the Telegraph are getting a bit unindulgent with her suggesting that a candidate without the backing of the PCP would find it worse than Corbyn.
-
I think even the Telegraph are getting a bit unindulgent with her suggesting that a candidate without the backing of the PCP would find it worse than Corbyn.
Blimey all sorts of skeleton's coming out of her closet now - latest being rather offensive linking of the death of baby P to unmarried couples - eeek, she'd a nightmare.
Also she has flat out refused to release her tax returns as other candidates have. Hmm, wonder why she might have done that!
-
Also she has flat out refused to release her tax returns as other candidates have. Hmm, wonder why she might have done that!
I don't have to publish my tax return, why should she have to publish hers?
-
Leadsom, TorKIP candidate now on shortlist with May.
-
Blimey all sorts of skeleton's coming out of her closet now - latest being rather offensive linking of the death of baby P to unmarried couples - eeek, she'd a nightmare.
Also she has flat out refused to release her tax returns as other candidates have. Hmm, wonder why she might have done that!
Andrew Marr (or was it Andrew Neil) finally got a 'Yes' out of her on Sunday, BBC1, when he asked her if she would release the said commodities.
-
Leadsom said to Edward Sturton that she would publish tax returns if she was in the last two - which she now is.
-
I don't have to publish my tax return, why should she have to publish hers?
Because she is trying to become PM, which I don't believe you are.
There are all sorts of expectations of people running for, for holding, high public office which aren't applied to the general public for obvious reasons.
Now I don't believe she is obliged to publish them, of course, but if she fails to do so, when others have it will leave a very clear impression that she has something to hide.
-
The whole point of a thread is to create debate - what's your point?
-
The whole point of a thread is to create debate - what's your point?
Sorry JK what comment are you responding to?
-
Sorry JK what comment are you responding to?
The OP.
-
Now I don't believe she is obliged to publish them, of course, but if she fails to do so, when others have it will leave a very clear impression that she has something to hide.
Which is why I don't think any of them should publish their tax returns.
-
Apparently Leadsom has made a very b*tchy comment about May being childless according to The Times!
-
Apparently Leadsom has made a very b*tchy comment after May being childless according to The Times!
Tape apparently reveals she did make statements......source Guardian.
-
Well hopefully people will see what Leadsom is really like. She makes statements then backtracks, not what we want in a PM!
-
Which is why I don't think any of them should publish their tax returns.
I don't either. Everyone is entitled to some privacy. If Ms Leadsom or anyone else has done something dastardly illegal, the powers that be will find out eventually if not sooner and presumably, then, so will we. Other than that, what they earn and what tax is paid is strictly their business.
-
Apparently Leadsom has made a very b*tchy comment about May being childless according to The Times!
"Apparently".... Floo. She is also furious that The Times has reported her out of context.
Once again, the media has the knives out for the underdog.
-
I don't either. Everyone is entitled to some privacy. If Ms Leadsom or anyone else has done something dastardly illegal, the powers that be will find out eventually if not sooner and presumably, then, so will we. Other than that, what they earn and what tax is paid is strictly their business.
This isn't about privacy as much as confidentiality. Privacy usually relates to things which are none of our business, and by our I mean the state as well as us as individuals. So whether someone likes something a tad kinky in the bedroom is something that is private.
How you organise your tax affairs isn't like that at all. You have to reveal this to HMRC, but that information is kept confidential under normal circumstances. However I believe it is in the public interest to know how those who aspire to be PM and therefore are responsible for raising and spending tax arrange their own tax affairs - specifically that they aren't aggressively avoiding paying a reasonable amount themselves. If I am expected to pay my fair share I think it is only reasonably that those in government do too and therefore to expect that to be demonstrated to the public by publishing tax returns isn't unreasonable.
-
"Apparently".... Floo. She is also furious that The Times has reported her out of context.
Once again, the media has the knives out for the underdog.
Except that you can listen to the whole interview as it was recorded - and there was no spin or reporting out of context from the Times, they reported her comments exactly.
She really isn't helping herself here because we can all simply go and listen to her exact answers to the questions. And she wasn't even few leading questions - she unprompted brought up the issue of May not having children.
-
Except that you can listen to the whole interview as it was recorded - and there was no spin or reporting out of context from the Times, they reported her comments exactly.
She really isn't helping herself here because we can all simply go and listen to her exact answers to the questions. And she wasn't even few leading questions - she unprompted brought up the issue of May not having children.
What she meant though, from what I can gather, is she has children and is thinking of their future and Theresa May, although she doesn't have children, has nieces and nephews.... so will also care about their future. It's just newspapers trying to make something out of nothing.... to sell papers and cause upset..... it's their job!
-
What she meant though, from what I can gather, is she has children and is thinking of their future and Theresa May, although she doesn't have children, has nieces and nephews.... so will also care about their future. It's just newspapers trying to make something out of nothing.... to sell papers and cause upset..... it's their job!
"From what you gather"
If you listen to the actual recording of the interview, you will hear her making a very clear distinction between her own position as a mother (with her assertion that this makes her more "grounded" than May, because she is thinking about her children's immediate future) etc, with the clear implication that this is one aspect of her life that makes her a better option for leadership.
It really is quite astonishing to hear this woman sounding off about "being disgustingly misrepresented by the press" - didn't she realise she was being recorded? All who have heard the recording know exactly what she said, and in what context. Spin-doctoring is one thing, but this seems like straightforward reality denial - which doesn't make her a too attractive proposition for party leadership, I'd say. And as for her dopey acolyte who appeared on the Today programme this morning to stand up for Leadsom - this stupid dork hadn't even heard the recording of the interview before she started mouthing off about Leadsom being grossly misrepresented. I must say, I thought that John Humphries kept his cool very well when faced with this transparent attempt to distort the truth, especially when he had heard the recording, and had the transcript right in front of him.
Furthermore, according to the journalist who did the interview, these matters of 'family affairs' were first raised by Leadsom herself, and the journalist never initially mentioned them at all.
One possibility is that Leadsom suffers from severe short term memory loss, which again is no great attribute in a future leader. But I suspect the real problem is her serious lack of judgment, and a propensity to open gob before brain engages.
-
What she meant though, from what I can gather, is she has children and is thinking of their future and Theresa May, although she doesn't have children, has nieces and nephews.... so will also care about their future. It's just newspapers trying to make something out of nothing.... to sell papers and cause upset..... it's their job!
The unpleasant woman clearly tried to play a bit of one-upmanship because she had kids!
-
I heard that and found it irrelevant and unpleasant. Funny when you think she was an unknown quantity before she decided to 'stand', same for Mr Crabbe who is now 'sitting'.
-
In a PM we need someone who can stand on the world stage and know what they are doing. I think May would fit the bill, but certainly not Leadsom. She is far too inexperienced and keeps making silly gaffs.
-
The unpleasant woman clearly tried to play a bit of one-upmanship because she had kids!
A rookie error or a calculated retreat having finally realised what a turd Brexit is?
-
The latter, she will withdraw by gradual excrements.
-
The latter, she will withdraw by gradual excrements.
Nice one! :D
-
What she meant though, from what I can gather, is she has children and is thinking of their future and Theresa May, although she doesn't have children, has nieces and nephews.... so will also care about their future. It's just newspapers trying to make something out of nothing.... to sell papers and cause upset..... it's their job!
If that s what she meant, perhaps sho ought to have said what she meant, not something else that The Times journalist nterviewing her has faithfully reported. Perhaps, she ought to have steered clear of comparing herself with Theresa on this particular point in the first place: she didn't need to answer the journalist's question in the way she did.
-
I heard that and found it irrelevant and unpleasant. Funny when you think she was an unknown quantity before she decided to 'stand', same for Mr Crabbe who is now 'sitting'.
Except that Mr Crabb was and remains a pretty important member of the Cabinet, first as Secretary of State for Wales and currently as Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. Mrs Leadsom doesn't even have that to fasll back on - she is, currently, Minister of State of Energy (not a post that carries Cabinet responsibity).
-
What she meant though, from what I can gather, is she has children and is thinking of their future and Theresa May, although she doesn't have children, has nieces and nephews.... so will also care about their future. It's just newspapers trying to make something out of nothing.... to sell papers and cause upset..... it's their job!
I'm in favour of Leadsom being PM because of her full Brexit views but this comment was naïve and crass and shows her inexperience in dealing with the media. From what I've heard of the tape recording she trod straight into it. One would hope that some of her colleagues with more experience of the political world will give her a fast track lesson in being a top politician. :-[
-
The first time I saw him, Hope, was on Question Time, not that long ago. So he wasn't all that familiar to me. He came over very well on QT I must say. Next time I saw him it was when it was announced he was going to stand for leader.
Yes, you are right about Leadsom.
--------------
Further to the discussions that have arisen after Andrea Leadsom talked about the advantages of her having children in contrast to Theresa May, that very subject was debated thoroughly on the radio earlier on. It was quite good to listen to people talking about the issue and giving different opinions with sound reasons to back them up.
After listening I thought, and had probably always thought, forget the children, concentrate on whether or not the person can do the job. No-one would say any of that about a male candidate.
-
If that s what she meant, perhaps sho ought to have said what she meant, not something else that The Times journalist nterviewing her has faithfully reported. Perhaps, she ought to have steered clear of comparing herself with Theresa on this particular point in the first place: she didn't need to answer the journalist's question in the way she did.
I think the factors here are that she's a Christian; and I think she abstained from the gay marriage vote so places her in that conservative side of Christianity. And the other point is that many of the Tory membership are of this kind of ilk or mind set and so she was playing to them. I wonder who is her campaign manager?
-
I couldn't hear much when I listened to the interview recording. But on reading a transcript of it, it is clear that the interviewer brought up the subject of her family, and Andrea answered honestly, saying she didn't want to make an issue out of Theresa not having children. Gutter journalism is absolutely the right description. The Times has always been anti-brexit, and clearly was trying to make Leadsom look bad.
-
The Times has always been anti-brexit, and clearly was trying to make Leadsom look bad.
Seems to me, if that was their intent, they were pushing at an open door.
-
Gutter journalism is absolutely the right description.
Too right but opinions of her are not based solely on one issue.
-
Seems to me, if that was their intent, they were pushing at an open door.
It's about stopping her getting in because they know she'll trigger article 50 straight away. And maybe more.
-
It's about stopping her getting in because they know she'll trigger article 50 straight away. And maybe more.
I think it is more that in PM terms she is a relative nonentity - still, let us us hope the Tory hoi-polloi vote for her: thereby adding to the reasons why Scotland should ditch the UK.
-
I couldn't hear much when I listened to the interview recording. But on reading a transcript of it, it is clear that the interviewer brought up the subject of her family, and Andrea answered honestly, saying she didn't want to make an issue out of Theresa not having children. Gutter journalism is absolutely the right description. The Times has always been anti-brexit, and clearly was trying to make Leadsom look bad.
except reading the transcript, she does make an issue of it.
-
I couldn't hear much when I listened to the interview recording. But on reading a transcript of it, it is clear that the interviewer brought up the subject of her family, and Andrea answered honestly, saying she didn't want to make an issue out of Theresa not having children. Gutter journalism is absolutely the right description. The Times has always been anti-brexit, and clearly was trying to make Leadsom look bad.
The Sunday Times was for Remain, but the Times was for Leave.
-
It's a difficult one because we have never been in this position before - having to negotiate leaving the EU. So, Theresa May has long-term government and cabinet experience on her side whereas Andrea Leadsom is a relative newbie and has no cabinet experience; but she does have experience, and more experience of the EU than any other senior tory minister. Andrea would trigger Article 50 straightaway but Theresa could well delay the action. It's imperative that we get it right re leaving the EU and all that that entails.
I'd say Theresa will win the final vote, but here's hoping she has Andrea well on board for these crucial negotiations.
-
Evidence of Andrea leadsom's experience of the EU?
-
... and any negotiating skills?
-
Evidence of Andrea leadsom's experience of the EU?
Her 'Fresh Start' programmes, where her negotiating skills may have been required.
-
Her 'Fresh Start' programmes, where her negotiating skills may have been required.
So 'may' is now more experience than any other Tory minister? Tell me your comparative methodology that lead to your categorical statement that she has more experience than any other Tory (junior as she is) minister?
-
And 'Fresh Start' is not a programme, at best it's a think tank, and appears to have no negotiations with the EU or indeed chance of negotiation with EU. Can you cover why this gives her this greater experience of the EU than any Tory minister?
-
I think it is more that in PM terms she is a relative nonentity - still, let us us hope the Tory hoi-polloi vote for her: thereby adding to the reasons why Scotland should ditch the UK.
You want to dig a ditch? Between England and Scotland? I think a hedge would look better :)
-
Digging a ditch would be the most cost effective option. A hedge would need more maintenance and there are no funds for that.
-
The Sunday Times was for Remain, but the Times was for Leave.
No, the Times backed Remain
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/eu-referendum-which-newspapers-are-backing-remain-leave-debate-1566488
-
You want to dig a ditch? Between England and Scotland? I think a hedge would look better :)
It seems to me we in Scotland need protection from the political idiocy emanating from south of our border with England.
Not content with having a referendum purely for party political reasons and then it not turning out as Cameron et al expected it would, we are now supposed to feel comfortable that one of the two candidates for PM is a relatively inexperienced lightweight: not only is it inexplicable that people in Toryland take her seriously (along with her fellow Tories who are responsible for the current situation), it now seems that the current games of musical chairs are the main issue and not the impending madness of Brexit.
I'm normally a mild-mannered old soul (most of the time anyway) but this whole fiasco makes my blood boil: so no ditch or hedge, Spud, but perhaps we do need the political equivalent of a very high wall so as to leave you guys to shoot yourselves in whatever feet you still have left without you dragging us down with you - you guys voted for the fucking Tories: not us!
-
except reading the transcript, she does make an issue of it.
The final comment Andrea makes suggests she's thinking: that because Mrs May doesnt have children, she might not worry so much about the possibility of a down-turn over the next ten years after which things will pick up again and "be fine". Someone with their own children would be more concerned to avoid a short-term downturn. She is saying she would be more suitable for the job given the circumstances. "Being a mother gives me edge on May" is a contortion to make her appear to be saying, "I'm better than she is".
-
I'm not convinced the referendum was for party political reasons (unless you mean because 3.8 million people voted ukip). If it will help you sleep better though, Gordon, I didn't vote Tory.
-
I'm not convinced the referendum was for party political reasons (unless you mean because 3.8 million people voted ukip). If it will help you sleep better though, Gordon, I didn't vote Tory.
The primary intention of the referendum was to control the behaviour of the right wing of the Conservative Party: Cash, Redwood et al. Their anti-EU baying predates the arrival of Farage by decades. John Major referred to them as "bastards". The referendum was an expensive, tax-payer funded, attempt at party management.
By showing them that the majority of people in the UK supported membership of the UK they would have been politically emasculated. Unfortunately, the referendum campaign turned out to be a text book case of how to cock things up and Cameron has been despatched to the history books as an idiot destroyed by his own incompetence.
-
The final comment Andrea makes suggests she's thinking: that because Mrs May doesnt have children, she might not worry so much about the possibility of a down-turn over the next ten years after which things will pick up again and "be fine". Someone with their own children would be more concerned to avoid a short-term downturn. She is saying she would be more suitable for the job given the circumstances. "Being a mother gives me edge on May" is a contortion to make her appear to be saying, "I'm better than she is".
Yes but the short term downturn during which people will lose jobs, houses, experience relationship breakdown, mental illness, lifelong loss of self confidence
was instigated partly by Leadsom as spokesperson for leave. Broken people are part of her manifesto.
-
The final comment Andrea makes suggests she's thinking: that because Mrs May doesnt have children, she might not worry so much about the possibility of a down-turn over the next ten years after which things will pick up again and "be fine". Someone with their own children would be more concerned to avoid a short-term downturn. She is saying she would be more suitable for the job given the circumstances. "Being a mother gives me edge on May" is a contortion to make her appear to be saying, "I'm better than she is".
Which is making an issue of it. So will you retract your previous statement? It also makes it an issue not just for this election but effectively states it would be better for a parent to be elected as PM every time.
Also would have been nice for Leadsom to have considered the children before acting to increase the likelihood of a recession.
-
The primary intention of the referendum was to control the behaviour of the right wing of the Conservative Party: Cash, Redwood et al. Their anti-EU baying predates the arrival of Farage by decades. John Major referred to them as "bastards". The referendum was an expensive, tax-payer funded, attempt at party management.
Other than media speculation, do you have any evidence for this claim, HH?
-
Do you have any evidence that it is not?
The Conservative Party is possibly the oldest political party in the world. In the case of conflict between the interests of the nation or the interests of the party, a true conservative will always put party first.
-
Which is making an issue of it. So will you retract your previous statement? It also makes it an issue not just for this election but effectively states it would be better for a parent to be elected as PM every time.
Also would have been nice for Leadsom to have considered the children before acting to increase the likelihood of a recession.
In other elections there might not be the imminent prospect of a recession, so it doesn't make it an issue for all elections. But I'll agree with you that she does raise it as an issue in order to sell herself which is natural if one is competing for a job (if she did "make an issue of it" she afterwards said this wasn't er intention).
I have spoken to older people, pro- Brexit, and found that in their eyes, the problem for children is not that they might grow up with a recession, but that they grow up believing that money doesnt have to be worked for.
-
No, the Times backed Remain
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/eu-referendum-which-newspapers-are-backing-remain-leave-debate-1566488
Yes, sorry, I remembered it the other way round but should have checked. I did think the piece was fair and reasonable interview report though.
-
I have spoken to older people, pro- Brexit, and found that in their eyes, the problem for children is not that they might grow up with a recession, but that they grow up believing that money doesnt have to be worked for.
Really?!?
I have never heard that as an argument. And it makes no sense, if you take the fact that many Brexiters were against freedom of movement. What freedom of movement does is make the job market more competitive, as a brit is going up against an italian and a french person on the basis that the job will go to the best person, not the best person from britain. So the notion of free movement incentives people to have to work harder to earn their way. Restricting free movement means often the person getting the job isn't the best, may no really even be up to it but the 'talent pool' has been artificially restricted by nationality. So no freedom of movement brexit is much more consistent with 'believing that money doesnt have to be worked for' than the EU model.
-
In other elections there might not be the imminent prospect of a recession, so it doesn't make it an issue for all elections. But I'll agree with you that she does raise it as an issue in order to sell herself which is natural if one is competing for a job (if she did "make an issue of it" she afterwards said this wasn't er intention).
I have spoken to older people, pro- Brexit, and found that in their eyes, the problem for children is not that they might grow up with a recession, but that they grow up believing that money doesnt have to be worked for.
At a pinch these people might have started work in the war years but more probably in the welfare state of Atlee up to the Macmillan years when we ''had never had it so good''. They would have avoided Thatcherite unemployment and have experienced the unbroken quarterly growth of Blair's 10 year administration.
So it sounds like a lot of pious second hand bollocks.
-
In other elections there might not be the imminent prospect of a recession, so it doesn't make it an issue for all elections. But I'll agree with you that she does raise it as an issue in order to sell herself which is natural if one is competing for a job (if she did "make an issue of it" she afterwards said this wasn't er intention).
I have spoken to older people, pro- Brexit, and found that in their eyes, the problem for children is not that they might grow up with a recession, but that they grow up believing that money doesnt have to be worked for.
So she made an issue of it and then denied it, which shows she is either incompetent, a liar or an incompetent liar. Given the Cv lies, money should be on the last.
-
I suppose it might be a double bluff - Leadsom thinks that talking about children in relation to May like this will appeal to the Tory rank and file, but she can also deny that she meant it in a nasty way, meanwhile hoping that the nasty side still works. I don't know, it sounds a bit too clever.
-
Apparently quitting race
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36763208?SThisFB
-
Good. May as PM later today?
-
Maybe a bit longer, as Cameron wants to attend G7 but could be quick. Tories will be able to contrast this with Labour Party
-
Wow, I have just seen that Leadsom has withdrawn, GOOD!
-
What id Gove decides he should be back in the running?
-
What id Gove decides he should be back in the running?
Isn't up to him, up to the 1922 committee.
-
What id Gove decides he should be back in the running?
He can't. May will be confirmed as PM this afternoon and could move into No 10 in the next few days, as soon as Cameron has booked his removal van, according to the lunchtime news.
-
Dear Cloud Cuckoo Land,
Old Loathsome has done the decent thing, now all we need is Droopy Eagle to crawl back to where ever she came from and Corbyn can get on with what he does best, stuffing the Tories at every turn and laughing as they make gaff after gaff after gaff :) :)
Not to forget our Nicola who is watching from the side lines thinking, just a matter of time before all the cards fall ::) ::)
Gonnagle.
-
Dear Cloud Cuckoo Land,
Old Loathsome has done the decent thing, now all we need is Droopy Eagle to crawl back to where ever she came from and Corbyn can get on with what he does best, stuffing the Tories at every turn and laughing as they make gaff after gaff after gaff :) :)
Not to forget our Nicola who is watching from the side lines thinking, just a matter of time before all the cards fall ::) ::)
Gonnagle.
Ah yes the Tories 'being stuffed' by still being in govt, and having had a farce of leadership still managing to be able to claim to be more united than Labour. Next the boundary changes, and PM May will look forward to 9 years of govt.
-
Dear Cloud Cuckoo Land,
... Corbyn can get on with what he does best, stuffing the Tories at every turn and laughing as they make gaff after gaff after gaff :) :)
...
Gonnagle.
He might be better off laying out a manifesto, or at least some kind of plan, for the Labor party?
-
He might be better off laying out a manifesto, or at least some kind of plan, for the Labor party?
Why? Leaders don't create manifestos.
-
What use is he then?
-
What use is he then?
it's not particular about him Leaders might have policies, they don't create manifestos.
What was our soon to be PM's manifesto or plan?
-
One crucial thing that happened as a result of Corbyn was stopping the policy of abstaining on votes on austerity.
-
Dear Sane,
Ah yes the Tories 'being stuffed' by still being in govt, and having had a farce of leadership still managing to be able to claim to be more united than Labour.
But the Tories have not finished their Grand Masterplan ( yes I should work on my sarcasm ) this Theresa May lady is either very brave or very stupid, she has the Brexiteers both inside and outside her party to contend with, she has the EU to placate, she has Nicola Sturgeon watching and waiting, on top of that we have Northern Ireland, Farage and his cronies, old Cameron has handed her a poison chalice, and if Corbyn keeps his position, whilst she is discussing brexit, he will be poking her in the eye over real issues, poverty, unemployment, NHS, Oh! and lest I forget, any decisions she makes over troop deployment or sending us in to bomb the hell out of whoever has upset the USA, she will have the Blair fiasco to think about.
Gonnagle.
-
it's not particular about him Leaders might have policies, they don't create manifestos.
What was our soon to be PM's manifesto or plan?
Don't know .. but she is sure to be working on it and/or getting the right people (as she sees it) onto the job. Labor lost its way under Blair and Brown and has been floundering around without any vision since.
One crucial thing that happened as a result of Corbyn was stopping the policy of abstaining on votes on austerity.
Voting against austerity is fine. But Osborne has been zig-zagging around with it anyway. The whole economic situation will be different under Brexit, so needs to be thought out again.
-
... and if Corbyn keeps his position, whilst she is discussing brexit, he will be poking her in the eye ...
Nobody is listening to him beyond a tiny cliche within his echo chamber.
... over real issues, poverty, unemployment, NHS,
Brexit is a real issue, not least because it massively affects our economy and that impacts err poverty, unemployment, NHS etc. Corbyn can have a sterile debate within his echo chamber where he says 'we must fight poverty' and they will all nod sagely. But he has no answer as to how to fight poverty. And actually the most important thing we must do, right now, our number one priority is to ensure that we do our very best to safeguard jobs and public spending in the post-brexit environment, and that means protecting the economy.
Oh! and lest I forget, any decisions she makes over troop deployment or sending us in to bomb the hell out of whoever has upset the USA, she will have the Blair fiasco to think about.
Yes that's true, but what we mustn't do is endlessly see-saw between intervene/not intervene/intervene/not intervene because the last thing we did didn't turn out so well.
-
Don't know .. but she is sure to be working on it and/or getting the right people (as she sees it) onto the job. Labor lost its way under Blair and Brown and has been floundering around without any vision since.
Voting against austerity is fine. But Osborne has been zig-zagging around with it anyway. The whole economic situation will be different under Brexit, so needs to be thought out again.
Osborne only zigged after the referendum. After the election Labour were happily abstaining on any austerity votes, Corbyn changed that a it was part of his plan/manifesto .
-
Dear ProfDavey,
Brexit is a real issue, not least because it massively affects our economy and that impacts err poverty, unemployment, NHS etc. Corbyn can have a sterile debate within his echo chamber where he says 'we must fight poverty' and they will all nod sagely. But he has no answer as to how to fight poverty. And actually the most important thing we must do, right now, our number one priority is to ensure that we do our very best to safeguard jobs and public spending in the post-brexit environment, and that means protecting the economy.
He has been standing in the House day after day telling us what the answer is, investment, the only reason he is not being listened to is his detractors are stuck in old Tory and Blairite thinking, you don't punish the poor or the unemployed, you assist them in helping themselves, it works Prof, retrain and fund them and they will lift themselves out of poverty and unemployment.
And you know and I know that the NHS is not being funded properly.
Gonnagle.
-
Dear ProfDavey,
He has been standing in the House day after day telling us what the answer is, investment
No shit sherlock ... and where does the money come from. It is the easiest thing in the world to think that all our problems will be solved if we just spend more money. What is much, much harder is to determine how that money is going to be generated.
, the only reason he is not being listened to is his detractors are stuck in old Tory and Blairite thinking,
No he isn't being listened to because he is an extremely poor leader who hasn't moved on from 1980s class war-type ideological non-sense. He isn't being listened to because he has no plan for how he will achieve the things he wants - all he ever suggests is that 'we need a debate' about this and 'we need a debate' about that.
you don't punish the poor or the unemployed, you assist them in helping themselves, it works Prof, retrain and fund them and they will lift themselves out of poverty and unemployment.
And you know and I know that the NHS is not being funded properly.
Gonnagle.
I agree with all of those points (and I image so do those on the right of the Labour party, LibDems, SNP, the Greens and even most moderate Tories) - that's not the issue, the issue is how you achieve these things. And most importantly how you fund them - you can only spend money if you have first generated that money within the broader economy.
-
Dear Prof,
We have the money, 250 billion according to Mr Carney, or is that bunkum, or we could scrap Trident ( no wait, sorry, the Russians are coming ) we will never use Trident, but anyway we are ( so I am told ) the fifth richest country in the world, all I am asking and all Mr Corbyn is asking is to invest some of that money in our future, it doesn't have to be spend spend spend, but a gentle loosening of the wallet, it will pay big dividends in the future.
Gonnagle.
-
Loathsom had said she'd publish her tax returns if she made it into the final two. Now she's withdrawn, I suppose we won't find out if they're as "boring" as she claimed they were.
-
I couldn't hear much when I listened to the interview recording. But on reading a transcript of it, it is clear that the interviewer brought up the subject of her family, and Andrea answered honestly, saying she didn't want to make an issue out of Theresa not having children. Gutter journalism is absolutely the right description. The Times has always been anti-brexit, and clearly was trying to make Leadsom look bad.
Twaddle. When I listened to the interview recording, I could hear every word. It was perfectly obvious from her nuances and emphases that she definitely was making an issue of Theresa not having children. Listen to the recording again, and see how she puts a particular emphasis on the word 'children' in the phrase "but I have children". This was not gutter journalism - simply journalism, and if anything, the recorded interview was even worse in its import than the relatively mild-toned article.
And as for the woman ranting outside her house that she had been disgustingly misrepresented - didn't the dope realise that she was being recorded? Maybe she'd had second thoughts about what she'd said and thought she could brass it out. The recording reveals the blatant reality of what she said.
-
Loathsom had said she'd publish her tax returns if she made it into the final two. Now she's withdrawn, I suppose we won't find out if they're as "boring" as she claimed they were.
She did publish it yesterday.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/10/andrea-leadsom-tax-returns-reveals-85000-income-in-2015
-
Maybe a bit longer, as Cameron wants to attend G7 but could be quick. Tories will be able to contrast this with Labour Party
I.e. a very early GE whilst they are on the back foot or flat on their faces. Wait for labour to be halfway through their leadership contest and then call one.
-
I.e. a very early GE whilst they are on the back foot or flat on their faces. Wait for labour to be halfway through their leadership contest and then call one.
I think that might be counterproductive. It will look opputunistic. Though it will be tempting.
-
Thank goodness that the blood-letting is over, it was quite upsetting to the children, anyway, we can look forward to a right-wing government taking back control.
-
No shit sherlock ... and where does the money come from. It is the easiest thing in the world to think that all our problems will be solved if we just spend more money. What is much, much harder is to determine how that money is going to be generated.
So where did Carney get £250 billion to give to the banks?
The best way to utilize that money is to get it to the banks via the people. So you share that out to the people and those with debts have to use that to pay down their debts and if you have no debts then it is yours to spends as you see fit. The economy works by the money going round and round, not by being stuck in a few elitist bankers.
-
I think that might be counterproductive. It will look opputunistic. Though it will be tempting.
Maybe, but do you really think the Labour party are going to be in any better shape after their leadership election?
-
Twaddle. When I listened to the interview recording, I could hear every word. It was perfectly obvious from her nuances and emphases that she definitely was making an issue of Theresa not having children. Listen to the recording again, and see how she puts a particular emphasis on the word 'children' in the phrase "but I have children". This was not gutter journalism - simply journalism, and if anything, the recorded interview was even worse in its import than the relatively mild-toned article.
And as for the woman ranting outside her house that she had been disgustingly misrepresented - didn't the dope realise that she was being recorded? Maybe she'd had second thoughts about what she'd said and thought she could brass it out. The recording reveals the blatant reality of what she said.
I agree.
I reckon she has stood down because people in her own camp have seen that she is too inexperienced in handling the pressure (only a couple of days worth) and have lost faith in her.
-
I think that might be counterproductive. It will look opputunistic. Though it will be tempting.
Both Labour and LDs have called for an election on the grounds that May has no mandate.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/opposition-parties-call-for-early-general-election-following-theresa-may-coronation-a7130896.html
My feeling is that we won't have one unless a vote on triggering Article 50 does not pass (if there is to be a vote).
-
Labour would be insane to call for an election right now; they could be annihilated. Suicide is painless ...
-
Maybe, but do you really think the Labour party are going to be in any better shape after their leadership election?
No, which is why I think the Tories would wait, particularly given the Fixed Terms Act. If they want to call an election, they need 2\3 of MPs. That would be difficult to achieve, I suspect. The other way is a majority no confidence vote but they won't go that route because of how it would look.
-
Labour would be insane to call for an election right now; they could be annihilated. Suicide is painless ...
Agreed, the PLP won't do it. It's an attempt at posturing. The Lib Dems have little to lose other than deposits.
-
I agree.
I reckon she has stood down because people in her own camp have seen that she is too inexperienced in handling the pressure (only a couple of days worth) and have lost faith in her.
Not helped by the puffed up CV with its obvious lies. In my opinion that would make her highly questionable in any role.
-
Ah .. another update:
"Labour’s general election co-ordinator Jon Trickett says his party has not called for a snap election, but insists it will be ready if there is one."
-
Both Labour and LDs have called for an election on the grounds that May has no mandate.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/opposition-parties-call-for-early-general-election-following-theresa-may-coronation-a7130896.html
My feeling is that we won't have one unless a vote on triggering Article 50 does not pass (if there is to be a vote).
There is no vote on triggering Art 50, it is up to the government to choose the timing.
May has a mandate from the 2015 Conservative manifesto.
Also, an early GE can only occur if 1) a vote of no confidence in the government is obtains or 2) 66% of the Commons votes for one. Neither are going to happen.
Secondly, the Tories are talking about having stability and calm in the country and activating an early GE would just throw the cards further into the air.
-
Labour would be insane to call for an election right now; they could be annihilated. Suicide is painless ...
But the ironic thing is the threat of a GE when Cameron resigned is what, from what I can see, triggered the machinations that have taken place in the Labour party. Which in my books seems to have been a bad calculation...?
-
But the ironic thing is the threat of a GE when Cameron resigned is what, from what I can see, triggered the machinations that have taken place in the Labour party. Which in my books seems to have been a bad calculation...?
Sorry, threat by whom?
-
Sorry, threat by whom?
Threat as in fear that his resignation might result in one, because of a new leader. And that most of the Labour PLP seeing no hope in Corbyn in winning a GE panicked.
-
Threat as in fear that his resignation might result in one, because of a new leader.
Not following this. David Cameron resigning was somehow a threat of a GE except he wouldn't be in power? How does that work and what was it meant to achieve ?
-
Not following this. David Cameron resigning was somehow a threat of a GE except he wouldn't be in power? How does that work and what was it meant to achieve ?
It would be or could be seen that a new leader would require a new mandate from the people i.e. a GE. The moderate Labour lot panicked....?
-
The last Brexiteer who could slurry their way to the top job has valiantly chickened out.....
A vote to leave moral fibre I think.
-
It would be or could be seen that a new leader would require a new mandate from the people i.e. a GE. The moderate Labour lot panicked....?
Don't see it. Labour Party works to its own drummer here. Longer term allows Corbyn supporters to deselect those who don't support him. They also were worried by Chilcott. Also having a Tory party about at that stage to tear itself apart isn't worrying. Possibly because they thought there would be an internal battle in the Tories, they thought there was a chance for some knifing. As usual they forget about the Tories will to power.
-
I think the Tories would insane not go for an early GE, with the labour civil war they could turn a slim majority to a big majority.
-
I think the Tories would insane not go for an early GE, with the labour civil war they could turn a slim majority to a big majority.
So they vote no confidence in themselves?
-
I think the Tories would insane not go for an early GE, with the labour civil war they could turn a slim majority to a big majority.
Yes, but as the great Irish philosopher Johnny Logan put it ''What's another year?''.
May will go in 2020 on a job half finished, still not out of the woods yet ticket. Then possibly an unbeatable coalition of non tories 2025.
-
Then possibly an unbeatable coalition of non tories 2025.
Not sure that the Greens, SNP, Lib Dems, Plaid Cymru - perhaps UKIP - and the various other small parties will have enough MPs to oust whoever wins the 2020 General election, Vlad. Will a rump centrist Labour party (if a split has taken place) really want to go into coalition with such folk?
-
So they vote no confidence in themselves?
No, they just need a two thirds majority in a vote to have a general election.
-
No, they just need a two thirds majority in a vote to have a general election.
And while there is a mathematical chance of that it's not something they have or can control. That said going for it and getting voted down could be made to look good.
-
Don't see it. Labour Party works to its own drummer here. Longer term allows Corbyn supporters to deselect those who don't support him. They also were worried by Chilcott. Also having a Tory party about at that stage to tear itself apart isn't worrying. Possibly because they thought there would be an internal battle in the Tories, they thought there was a chance for some knifing. As usual they forget about the Tories will to power.
If I've got this right they can only deselect if there is a GE about to take place, hence my argument.
Chilcot? Can't see this really. Unless they had a quick fire process to get Corbyn out, which the half cocked twats didn't have, then I can't see the link here.
But the Tories weren't about to have an internal battle because Cameron stepped down; the only real possible cause of an internecine, if he had stayed. What his stepping down did do was bring in a new PM which had the threat of a early GE, hence the deselection angst.
And finally, on Ch4 News last night, a Labourite said that this had all come about because of the possibility of an early GE.
-
No, they just need a two thirds majority in a vote to have a general election.
Good luck with that one!!! ;D ;D ;D
-
No, they just need a two thirds majority in a vote to have a general election.
Theoretically, although there is another alternative which is to repeal the Fixed Term Parliament Act and return to a simple majority position.
The final possibility is for the government to resign and for no alternative government to receive sufficient support to govern.
All these could lead to a general election without the two thirds majority.