Religion and Ethics Forum

General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on March 30, 2018, 11:42:02 AM

Title: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Nearly Sane on March 30, 2018, 11:42:02 AM
Much has been made of whether Corbyn is or is not anti semitic, I dibpn't think he is, but the problem for labour is this is a more general indication of a split party. The article below is from a Labour supporting journalist in a traditionally Labour paper. Reading it, I struggle to see it as a call to arms more a sigh of surender



https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/labour-deep-anti-semitic-problems-12274210
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on March 30, 2018, 12:26:15 PM
Much has been made of whether Corbyn is or is not anti semitic, I dibpn't think he is, but the problem for labour is this is a more general indication of a split party. The article below is from a Labour supporting journalist in a traditionally Labour paper. Reading it, I struggle to see it as a call to arms more a sigh of surender



https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/labour-deep-anti-semitic-problems-12274210
Labour falling into line with another tory generated narrative IMHO.

Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Nearly Sane on March 30, 2018, 12:28:35 PM
Labour falling into line with another tory generated narrative IMHO.
Which is surely just another reason not to vote for them?
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on March 30, 2018, 12:33:09 PM
Which is surely just another reason not to vote for them?
There are only two parties down here to vote for.
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Nearly Sane on March 30, 2018, 12:49:48 PM
There are only two parties down here to vote for.
Last time I looked there were at least 3 in most places.
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Steve H on March 30, 2018, 01:27:51 PM
Of course neither he nor the Labour Party are anti-semitic. He supports the moderate Palestinian cause, and quite right too, and some Zionists love to confuse that and anti-semitism, and naturally the Hate-Mail, the Excess and the Scum will jump on that bad-wagon: any stick to hit Labour with, regardless of the truth.
[Edit] "Band-wagon" I meant above, although then again...
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Nearly Sane on March 30, 2018, 01:35:09 PM
Of course neither he nor the Labour Party are anti-semitic. He supports the moderate Palestinian cause, and quite right too, and some Zionists love to confuse that and anti-semitism, and naturally the Hate-Mail, the Excess and the Scum will jump on that bad-wagon: any stick to hit Labour with, regardless of the truth.
[Edit] "Band-wagon" I meant above, although then again...

So those Labour MPs on the protest were Zionists? Or Zionist dupes? Neither Corbyn nor the Labour party itself would need to be anti semitic for the Labour Party to have a problem with anti semitism.

I like bad-wagon
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Rhiannon on March 30, 2018, 01:37:36 PM
Something us badly wrong when people are calling for the deselection of someone like David Lammy for attending a rally in support of his constituents.
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Steve H on March 30, 2018, 01:38:27 PM
"Labour has a problem with anti-semitism" is not only a lie, it's weasel words, used by the afore-mentioned arse-wipes to avoid a libel case, which they'd face if they said that Labour or Corbyn were anti-semitic.
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Rhiannon on March 30, 2018, 01:50:34 PM
"Labour has a problem with anti-semitism" is not only a lie, it's weasel words, used by the afore-mentioned arse-wipes to avoid a libel case, which they'd face if they said that Labour or Corbyn were anti-semitic.

So what do you make of people within Labour who think there is a problem? Why did Labour MPs attend the recent rally?
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Nearly Sane on March 30, 2018, 01:54:47 PM
"Labour has a problem with anti-semitism" is not only a lie, it's weasel words, used by the afore-mentioned arse-wipes to avoid a libel case, which they'd face if they said that Labour or Corbyn were anti-semitic.
So Labour MPs are avoiding calling the party they represent anti semitic because the party they represent would then sue them? Can a party sue an individual?
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: wigginhall on March 30, 2018, 02:20:11 PM
There's often a conflation between criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism, which is false.  However, the Palestinian groups have some dodgy characters in them, and Corbyn is insensitive, I think.  No doubt the right wing are using this to attack Labour and Corbyn, the communist traitor.
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Nearly Sane on March 30, 2018, 02:24:13 PM
It's more the issue of Labour on Labour attack that I am raising here. The admirable Torcuil Crichton who wrote the article in the OP is a long term Labour supporter. No doubt he might be being lead by a cunning Tory plot but as alraady pointed out if Labour MPs and supporters are doing this because of that, then why should I vote for a party at war with itself because lots of its members are stupid?
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: wigginhall on March 30, 2018, 02:32:58 PM
I thought that right wing Labour had always hated Corbyn?   I suppose many Labour members live with the tension of a divided party, but it always has been, hasn't it?  I was a member in the 60s, and my local branch was full of right wing trade unionists.  Well, I left, but I keep thinking of rejoining.
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Nearly Sane on March 30, 2018, 02:37:49 PM
As I said in the OP, I think this is the symbol of a the divided party, and yes, parties are always to some extent divided but this seems worse than I have previously seen the LP. I'm not sure that it is easy just to portray this as a right left battle in the party.
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on March 30, 2018, 02:46:43 PM
So what do you make of people within Labour who think there is a problem? Why did Labour MPs attend the recent rally?
Anti Corbyn.

Labour wanting labour as a perpetual opposition is not unknown you know. For me even Corbyn has yet to prove himself beyond that.

 
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: wigginhall on March 30, 2018, 03:03:47 PM
As I said in the OP, I think this is the symbol of a the divided party, and yes, parties are always to some extent divided but this seems worse than I have previously seen the LP. I'm not sure that it is easy just to portray this as a right left battle in the party.

I don't know really.   I met some local members, and they impressed me with their energy and thoughtfulness.  I don't think they were all Momentum or left-wing. 
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Rhiannon on March 30, 2018, 03:40:13 PM
Anti Corbyn.

Labour wanting labour as a perpetual opposition is not unknown you know. For me even Corbyn has yet to prove himself beyond that.

Evidence for them - all of them - being anti Corbyn?
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Nearly Sane on March 30, 2018, 03:51:31 PM
Evidence for them - all of them - being anti Corbyn?
and even if they were, evidence that that is the dominant motivation
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on March 31, 2018, 09:14:50 AM
One organisation at the vanguard of this is membered by former and current Party Conservatives.

This is an easy way to topple Corbyn one which lazy new labourites might also find attractive.
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Steve H on March 31, 2018, 09:22:53 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43597132
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on March 31, 2018, 09:24:31 AM
Sugar, and a mocked up picture of Corbyn with Hitler. What madness has descended on the world?
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Steve H on March 31, 2018, 09:29:28 AM
Last time I looked there were at least 3 in most places.
I assume PF means that there are only two parties which have any chance of winning in his constituency.
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Rhiannon on March 31, 2018, 11:45:24 AM
One organisation at the vanguard of this is membered by former and current Party Conservatives.

This is an easy way to topple Corbyn one which lazy new labourites might also find attractive.

That the right are manipulating this doesn’t mean there isn’t an issue.
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Rhiannon on March 31, 2018, 11:46:07 AM
Sugar, and a mocked up picture of Corbyn with Hitler. What madness has descended on the world?

Is this the worst internet trolling you’ve encountered? Bless.
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on March 31, 2018, 12:13:07 PM
That the right are manipulating this doesn’t mean there isn’t an issue.
Yes but as we know from this forum part of the victory is keeping something live expediently,
What the accusers can never seem to do is fully explain their problems with whatever and how these can be resolved. Why should you when you can milk not being satisfied.

They need to make it perfectly clear what their objectives for Labour are and present them for scrutiny.
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Enki on March 31, 2018, 01:30:50 PM
Jonathan Freedland, in today's Guardian, expresses my disquiet with the antisemitism that has been shown in the Labour Party extremely well.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/30/antisemitism-jews-canary-coalmine-fake-news
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Rhiannon on April 02, 2018, 05:49:40 PM
Even Momentum don't think this is just a right wing conspiracy.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/02/labour-antisemitism-more-widespread-than-thought-momentum-says
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: jeremyp on April 02, 2018, 05:58:21 PM
Just as a point of information, can anybody tell me what anti semitism is alleged. I've read some of the stories but they are mainly about how Jeremy Corbyn has handled (or mishandled) the situation. There was one allusion to a Labour candidate who may be a holocaust denier and who was supported by an NEC member (who has now resigned), but if that is the extent of it, it seems like a storm in a teacup.

I also think that Corbyn's somewhat naive position on Palestine could be considered anti-Israel but not necessarily antisemitic.
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 03, 2018, 02:40:40 PM
Imagine meeting with the wrong Jews.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43624231
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: jakswan on April 03, 2018, 03:51:11 PM
Imagine meeting with the wrong Jews.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43624231

Corbyn is either stupid or is trying to wind people up.
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 03, 2018, 03:55:46 PM
Corbyn is either stupid or is trying to wind people up.
Ah so those were bad Jews!
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: jakswan on April 04, 2018, 09:22:09 AM
Ah so those were bad Jews!

I would never coin such a phrase its a sad reflection on you that you do so.
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 04, 2018, 09:24:57 AM
I would never coin such a phrase its a sad reflection on you that you do so.
Is it a sad reflection on Michael Rosen who used it?
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Aruntraveller on April 04, 2018, 11:20:01 AM
I would never coin such a phrase its a sad reflection on you that you do so.

Eh? I thought this was all about the way some Jews perceive other Jews and in that context these were "bad Jews". NS was merely commenting on that stupid attitude.
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: jeremyp on April 04, 2018, 12:56:07 PM
Imagine meeting with the wrong Jews.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43624231

I can't imagine a worse name for a Jewish organisation than "Jewdas".
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Steve H on April 04, 2018, 01:18:50 PM
I can't imagine a worse name for a Jewish organisation than "Jewdas".
I think it's deliberately provocative.
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Nearly Sane on April 18, 2018, 08:16:41 AM
Despite the Tories calling setting up the debate in the HoC with a big sign saying 'Heer be a trap four the Laybur patty', the Labour Party not only walked right up to the trap but threw one and other in. I can't see any way that one could vote Labour currently given it is a party at war.
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Anchorman on April 18, 2018, 08:57:18 AM
Corbyn seems totally unable to deal with this matter.
I watched yesterday's debate, with Labour MPs openly criticising their own party - in Parliament - with despair.
Theresa May must think it's Christmas.
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 18, 2018, 09:47:13 AM
Corbyn seems totally unable to deal with this matter.
I watched yesterday's debate, with Labour MPs openly criticising their own party - in Parliament - with despair.
Theresa May must think it's Christmas.
If it weren't for those pesky Windrush people.
Title: Re: Labour and anti semitism
Post by: ippy on April 18, 2018, 02:50:16 PM
I can't think of any good reason to be anti-semitic, I can think of plenty of reasons to be pro-semitic.

The only reason I can think of is there must be a lot of jealous people about, they're such a clever bunch of people, sure they have their faults, don't we all? And no I'm not Jewish or involved knowingly with any Jews, nor am I avoiding them.

Regards ippy