Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rhiannon on December 02, 2018, 11:14:11 AM
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Sometimes the conversations here turn to sexual violence. Sometimes they turn to the harassment or abuse of women. Sometimes abuse in general. Sometimes a conversation not directly connected to it may bring up discussion around it, such as when discussing the need for forgiveness and carrying the burden of the sins of another.
Because I’ve been sexually assaulted, I’ve been raped and because I’ve been in an abusive relationship I will often refer to my experiences in these discussions. I only found my voice on the first two in the last couple of years; before that I didn’t know how to talk about them without blaming myself or feeling ashamed. Now that I am able to speak about it I do so just because I believe that it fosters understanding. The more voices that are heard, the more stories that are told, the better. My story is quite mild in many ways and there are far, far harder ones to hear. I think if anything I expected it in the atmosphere of cat calls and constant groping that I grew up in. And I’m ok.
I am angry though. Angry that some strange attitudes still exist. Angry that a woman’s underwear can be displayed in court as proof pf her consent. Angry that I still have conversations with men who say that a woman is to blame for rape if she dresses a certain way, or who believes rape doesn’t really happen often because you can’t penetrate a woman who is kicking and screaming. Angry that so few women feel able to report rape and that conviction rates are tiny. Angry that rape threats are the norm on social media. Angry that I have to fear for my girls. Sometimes my rage transfers here, I know that. I bring things up because I want to get people to think, to question the assumptions that they make. But then I get accused of feminism by numbers. Or, as Robbie accused me of last night, making it all ‘personal’.
Well, rape is a personal crime. It isn’t victimless. It’s not the same as someone stealing a car or your wallet, however personal that feels. It’s someone taking your body and wanting to hurt through control. Sexual assault is similar. Domestic abuse is the ultimate power trip. And a lot of us here have our personal stories of these crimes in one form or another. Maybe in finding my voice finally I won’t shut up about it. Maybe that makes people uncomfortable. I don’t know.
I thought that my anger and my rage and my honesty might make a difference. But over the last few days I’ve realised it doesn’t. There’s no point and all that happens is that I get angrier with nowhere for that to go. Things won't change. I’m going silent.
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It is important to speak out about sexual assault, which is always the fault of the perpetrator, never the victim. I get it that some victims find it hard to do so, let alone report the assault to the police.
I realise that I am fortunate in that I haven't been traumatised by the assaults I encountered. I am also fortunate that it would never have entered my head to blame myself for them. I was young when they occurred, and informing the police wasn't something I considered then. Of course these days it would be different, and as I mentioned on the other thread I would have no hesitation in reporting it to the police, and any other serious crime, for that matter.
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I agree with the OP 100% - well said, Rhi.
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I think it would be a mistake to think that your words and honesty don't make a difference. They have certainly refocused my thoughts about the subject. That I didn't contribute much to the debate doesn't mean your efforts were wasted.
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Like Trent, I think you do make a difference, also I think things will change and improve.
Although, I have to say discussing these kinds of things at a personal level (even IRL) does make me uncomfortable, and I usually try to separate off the emotional side and stick to the more pragmatic.
Possibly this is unhelpful.
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Thanks, chaps.
I think one of my reasons for speaking it is that I really don't mind doing so, it doesn't make me uncomfortable, it's something that happened but it doesn't define me - I'm still me. But my story is so common and there are far worse stories that are also, sadly, not unusual, and not everyone wants to speak out, and that's how it should be. So I think that on behalf of everyone who is silent the words of those us who speak up, and speak often, might sometimes be a reminder that when we are talking about sexual violence and domestic abuse, for a lot of women these aren't abstract concepts that belong to someone else's life. These are things we've lived. Bearing this is mind in debate on everything from how the courts behave to sin and forgiveness might be helpful sometimes. As Shaker says, be kinder.
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By the way, for anyone who doesn't really know what to say, 'god, that's a bit shit' will do fine. :)
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If there is a bloke reading this who doesn't realise that so much of being a bloke has been giving a pass to sexual harassment, or much worse, then you must have gone to bed at 6pm after The Magic Roundabout. No woman I know was not able to add to #metoo. No woman I know had not been placed in a position of dread. And it doesn't matter if male family friends stop specific cases in violent vigilanteism because it's just more toxic masculinity, and part of the problem.
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If there is a bloke reading this who doesn't realise that so much of being a bloke has been giving a pass to sexual harassment, or much worse, then you must have gone to bed at 6pm after The Magic Roundabout. No woman I know was not able to add to #metoo. No woman I know had not been placed in a position of dread. And it doesn't matter if male family friends stop specfic cases in violent vigilanteism because its just more toxic masculinity, and part of the problem.
There are losts of decent blokes out there. There's alot of bastards aswell. Of course men don't know what it's like to be a woman, what it's like to be harrassed or worse. What I do know is that if someone ever did anything I'd definitely sort them out. I don't care if that's "toxic masculinity". I'd do the same if someone beat up my brother or something.
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There are losts of decent blokes out there. There's alot of bastards aswell. Of course men don't know what it's like to be a woman, what it's like to be harrassed or worse. What I do know is that if someone ever did anything I'd definitely sort them out. I don't care if that's "toxic masculinity". I'd do the same if someone beat up my brother or something.
I know of tons of people happy to sort blokes out who are fucking happy to abuse women. Your propensity to violence is useless here.
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I know of tons of people happy to sort blokes out who are fucking happy to abuse women. Your propensity to violence is useless here.
I know that it does nothing for the victim. I should imagine that once you feel unsafe you always feel unsafe. If it can be one bloke it can be another. But aslong as you have a justice system that more often fails the victim, people will take justice into their own hands.
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I know that it does nothing for the victim. I should imagine that once you feel unsafe you always feel unsafe. If it can be one bloke it can be another. But aslong as you have a justice system that more often fails the victim, people will take justice into their own hands.
and your idea of justice makes you feel hard, and it supports the rape of women because hardness is what matters to you.
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and your idea of justice makes you feel hard, and it supports the rape of women because hardness is what matters to you.
No it's not what matters to me. I'm not hard. A few months ago my ex bumped into someone who was raped. She called the police and everything. I felt rage because I began to imagine what it would be like if she had been the victim.
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No it's not what matters to me. I'm not hard. A few months ago my ex bumped into someone who was raped. She called the police and everything. I felt rage because I began to imagine what it would be like if she had been the victim.
That seems like a deeply honest response but the idea that some hardness solves it isn't it. The idea that thumping some fuckwit does anything more than saying their violence is ok is an issue.
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Don't go silent Rhiannon. Be angry. It is one of the few things worth being angry about.
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Toxic masculinity...
I'm growing to despise that phrase. There is no working description of 'positive' masculinity, nor femininity of any type for that matter, so no context to help explain exactly what this nebulous idea of 'toxic masculinity' is. It just comes across as clumsy and lazy virtu signalling, and innapropriate for a subject as complex and nuanced as gender politics... as if there was one simple answer to the legacy of the patriarchy and its pervasive influence.
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Toxic masculinity...
I'm growing to despise that phrase. There is no working description of 'positive' masculinity, nor femininity of any type for that matter, so no context to help explain exactly what this nebulous idea of 'toxic masculinity' is. It just comes across as clumsy and lazy virtu signalling, and innapropriate for a subject as complex and nuanced as gender politics... as if there was one simple answer to the legacy of the patriarchy and its pervasive influence.
You can't despise it an iotasworth as much as I despise virtue signalling
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Rhi,
By the way, for anyone who doesn't really know what to say, 'god, that's a bit shit' will do fine.
God, that's a bit shit.
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Rhi,
God, that's a bit shit.
Thanks. :)
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Don't go silent Rhiannon. Be angry. It is one of the few things worth being angry about.
Yeah, but right now I'm worn out with it. Another time, another place maybe. But thanks. :)
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I really do hope nobody here is suggesting most if not ALL rape & sexual abuse is done by MEN ?!?!?!?
Some posts certainly do....
Nick
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I really do hope nobody here is suggesting most if not ALL rape & sexual abuse is done by MEN ?!?!?!?
Some posts certainly do....
Nick
Not even sure to take this seriously.
However, statistics (which I know sometimes lie, but really the evidence is overwhelming) show that most (not all) sexual abuse is done by men. Reading back through the thread I cannot see anybody saying or implying that it was ALL done by men.
The link below is USA based stats but the same sort of figures are available across the world:
https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics
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I really do hope nobody here is suggesting most if not ALL rape & sexual abuse is done by MEN ?!?!?!?
Some posts certainly do....
Nick
I'm not sure anyone is: but given your concern I feel sure you're just about to present us with the relevant statistics.
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At the time when it was most needed I received no sex education. I learned about sex covertly and inaccurately in casual conversation. I grew up in a partly Irish religious environment. One of the abiding memories of my childhood is that in any dispute between a girl and a boy the girl's version would be considered true. Always. Hot air from the pulpit also promoted a view that girls were by nature virtuous and that boys were by nature sinful. I grew up in a family which - apart from my mother - was all male. My nearest female cousin lived 25 miles away.
I mention this only to put the next part into some context.
When I was about 13 I did grope - molest - a girl about a couple of years younger than I. It was not consequent to, but influenced by playground information. I did not want to harm her but to - well - find out.
The memory of this shames me - more than 60 years later. There was never a repeat with anyone. My future sexual investigations were all consensual - and frequently delayed to the point where my companion thought that I was possibly asexual. Unless I knew that it would be welcomed I have never made an overtly sexual move.
As a postscript. About a year or so after the event described above. I stood in a courtroom and gave detailed evidence against a man who groomed me and used me for his own sexual gratification. My father was present at the trial. His relationship with me - for the rest of his life - was tainted by this experience. It would never cross his mind that I - like the girls in the recent cases in Rotherham and elsewhere - was a victim. I was a victim of ignorance.
I agree with everything Rhiannon says above.
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HH, that's such a powerful honest post. Thank you.
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HH, that's such a powerful honest post. Thank you.
Absolutely: very moving indeed.
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Thanks to HH for sharing his story with us.
It is so important to teach children about the facts of life in an age appropriate way when they start asking questions. I learned about sex when I was ten, a girl in my class at school brought the book, 'Lady Chatterly's Lover' with all the salacious bits underlined. My mother was too embarrassed to discuss the topic with my sisters and I! As the eldest girl she left the job of explaining about periods and where babies came from to me, which was very wrong of her. :o
Our children were able to discuss anything they wished with my husband and I, no topic was off limits.
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Courageous post, HH, thank you.
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HH,
I'm almost lost for words. With regard to this though: "The memory of this shames me - more than 60 years later", I can only suggest that the 13-year-old you was almost certainly a very different person to the 15-year-old you, let alone to the adult you. That is, the "me" that feels shame now wasn't the "me" you were when you were 13. To a significant extent you're ashamed of someone else, not of yourself.
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HH,
I'm almost lost for words. With regard to this though: "The memory of this shames me - more than 60 years later", I can only suggest that the 13-year-old you was almost certainly a very different person to the 15-year-old you, let alone to the adult you. That is, the "me" that feels shame now wasn't the "me" you were when you were 13. To a significant extent you're ashamed of someone else, not of yourself.
Well put, Blue. I am a vastly different person now to who I was as a teenager. I feel ashamed sometimes of things I said and did although it was from ignorance not a desire to hurt or worry anyine. But that is actually how we learn in life. Doesn’t seem fair that it has to involve other a lot of the time but there it is.
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Thank you all for your kind words.
You are right, Blue, I am not the person I was when I was in my early teens but I do wish I had been a little wiser then.
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HH,
Thank you all for your kind words.
You are right, Blue, I am not the person I was when I was in my early teens but I do wish I had been a little wiser then.
We all do that my friend, but by definition you cannot have been as wise at 13 as you are as an adult. That's why we have the word "adult". Whoever that 13-year-old was your shame concerns him, not you.
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HH,
We all do that my friend, but by definition you cannot have been as wise at 13 as you are as an adult. That's why we have the word "adult". Whoever that 13-year-old was your shame concerns him, not you.
And when it comes to it we have to look very much at the prevailing culture of the times. It's not so much about excuses, but reasons why things happen.
When I first landed at secondary school a boy started to go around hitting girls up the backside with his bag. It was annoying more than anything. After a while it stopped and we became best mates. Then he came out when we were 15. Is there a connection in there somewhere? Who knows, but the 11 year old him was a different guy from my best mate as a 15 yr old.
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https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/harvey-weinstein-round-robin-email-leaks-‘i’ve-had-one-hell-of-a-year’/ar-BBQzvkE?ocid=spartandhp
My heart bleeds for him, NOT! It is his victims for whom I have a lot of sympathy.
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HH, look back on your 13 year old self with compassion. You were little more than a child and you knew virtually nothing. We've all done things we wish we hadn't. The fact that you still feel pangs of conscience shows you're basically a decent chap. You make no excuses for your 13 year old self. It's over HH.
The story of your grooming a bit later on and having to testify was very moving, you poor young thing. I'm so sorry it created a barrier between your father and you, he obviously wasn't able to process it which was not unusual years ago when such things were almost unthinkable.
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Thank you, Robbie.
My father was something of a bully, anyway. I had already disappointed him by not being interested in football and instead being rather bookish.
What I did not mention was that I was also excluded from school for several months as a consequence of my appearance in court.
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Was that to protect you, HH? I'd have thought, at 13, your name wouldn't be printed in the newspaper.
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Thank you, Robbie.
My father was something of a bully, anyway. I had already disappointed him by not being interested in football and instead being rather bookish.
What I did not mention was that I was also excluded from school for several months as a consequence of my appearance in court.
HH - I am close to a young man who did something similar to you when he was 12 but the victim was a lot younger. She told her mother who confronted his parents, who then confronted him. He eventually admitted the truth. His victim appears to have forgiven him and moved on. The young man saw a therapist after he admitted what he did to his parents and was also prescribed some medication and is completely different now from his 12 year old self, and a great father to a little girl.
I wish more had been done to keep you from having to deal with predators and bullies. Why did they exclude you? Because you were brave enough to speak out in court?
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Was that to protect you, HH? I'd have thought, at 13, your name wouldn't be printed in the newspaper.
No. It was to protect the "good name" of the school. The headmaster - who was a bully and a complete failure as a human being - considered that I was not the kind of person he wanted in his school. He had determined that I must be homosexual and he wanted his school to be seen as a bastion of masculinity. The irony here was that there were at least two members of staff who were clearly homosexual.
He refused to allow biology to be taught because he saw biology as "a girl's subject". Eventually, biology was available but only in the the "C" stream - physics and chemistry would be too difficult for pupils of such frail intellect. Anyone who wanted to do medicine at university had to leave and go to a school in another town. There was a good tennis court at the playing field - but it was never used because tennis was not perceived as a masculine sport.
He practised corporal punishment. He humiliated anyone who caused him annoyance and permitted teachers and prefects to use corporal punishment.
This also related to another thread.