Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Steve H on November 10, 2019, 01:04:46 PM
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I've just posted a photo of a white poppy and a quaker anti-war poster, in part as a counter to the usual mawkish, right-wing, jingoistic bollocks we usually get on this day, and was met with a predictable hail of rubbish asking how I dared disrespect those who died for our freedom. Well, if I've pissed off a few right-wing gammons, my day has not been entirely wasted.
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There's nothing at all wrong with what you posted, glad it was pictures - pleasant ones at that - and you didn't resort to verbals :-). Right now, you are the bigger person in that scenario.
(Further to mawkish bollocks day, the festival of remembrance features Jeff Goldblaum and his jazz band (he plays jazz piano), and Leona Lewis, both of whom I like. If I can just watch the bits they are in I'll be happy. I'd like a run down of what's on at different times because the whole show in one go is a bit much (for me).)
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I've just posted a photo of a white poppy and a quaker anti-war poster, in part as a counter to the usual mawkish, right-wing, jingoistic bollocks we usually get on this day, and was met with a predictable hail of rubbish asking how I dared disrespect those who died for our freedom. Well, if I've pissed off a few right-wing gammons, my day has not been entirely wasted.
If you had fought for your country you might have a very different view.
A big THANK YOU to ALL those who lost their lives in the two world wars and all the conflicts since then.
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I've just posted a photo of a white poppy and a quaker anti-war poster, in part as a counter to the usual mawkish, right-wing, jingoistic bollocks we usually get on this day, and was met with a predictable hail of rubbish asking how I dared disrespect those who died for our freedom. Well, if I've pissed off a few right-wing gammons, my day has not been entirely wasted.
you're a very big and brave man are'nt you firing off insults from behind your computer screen
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you're a very big and brave man are'nt you firing off insults from behind your computer screen
I wonder if he would dare do so to one of the war veterans face to face?
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I'm a pacifist who is friends with a number of war veterans. They are wide varied in their opinions on our current approach to remembrance. They all agree that we need to remember and mourn those murdered in war, just as I do. There isn't a good or bad view on that. It's simplistic to think we cannot disagree on some things yet still come together, indeed if we cannot then it's a betrayal of those who suffered and died.
For a time in the 80s, I only wore the white poppy, then I wore both, now and for sometime I have worn neither, though contributed to both. SteveH is right in that there are undoubtedly some rather mawkish decisions are made about poppies. The idea that everyone on TV has to be seen to be wearing one for what seems to be a growing amount of time. Also there is a lot of dubious unofficial merchandise making political points that I find meritorious such as one metal badge saying 'Try burning this'
I posted this last year just after attending the service in George Square in Glasgow where I embraced one of my best army friends. We disagree on our approach but we both know that our beliefs are founded on the idea of reducing wars and killing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B8wFuZJyMo
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I wonder if he would dare do so to one of the war veterans face to face?
he's entitled to his own view but broadcasting it in real life could be dangerous to his health
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he's entitled to his own view but broadcasting it in real life could be dangerous to his health
Because thugs might be violent against him? Then they are pissing on the memory of those who died, or were injurdd, or traumatised.
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The poppy thread, of which we have 2 this year, is a hardy perennial, and when it arrives, I am always reminded of FastFlint's post on this that is enshrined in the Best Bits thread
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=9431.0
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Because thugs might be violent against him? Then they are pissing on the memory of those who died, or were injurdd, or traumatised.
yeah , whatever 😠
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If you had fought for your country you might have a very different view.
A big THANK YOU to ALL those who lost their lives in the two world wars and all the conflicts since then.
How predictable.
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How predictable.
Yes Steve it is predictable, as predictable as your hateful comments. >:( >:( >:(
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he's entitled to his own view but broadcasting it in real life could be dangerous to his health
Well, i've worn a white and a red poppy before now, and have lived to tell tha tale. I'm all for the two minutes' silence and proper respect; what \I object to is poppy-fascism, mawkishness, and attaching remembrance to right-wing politics.
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Yes Steve it is predictable, as predictable as your hateful comments. >:( >:( >:(
What have I said that's hateful? Have I insulted the memory of the war-dead?
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What have I said that's hateful? Have I insulted the memory of the war-dead?
The title of the thread and your opening post was hardly respectful of the war dead, imo.
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If you had fought for your country you might have a very different view.
A big THANK YOU to ALL those who lost their lives in the two world wars and all the conflicts since then.
I have no strong feelings either way on this issue. I will however quote my father who fought in the 2nd World War. "I don't need a poppy to remember. They could try and find something to make me forget" (I may be paraphrasing slightly, it was a conversation held a long time ago in a pub long since gone)
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Well, i've worn a white and a red poppy before now, and have lived to tell tha tale. I'm all for the two minutes' silence and proper respect; what \I object to is poppy-fascism, mawkishness, and attaching remembrance to right-wing politics.
what I object to is your sanctimonious righteousness in what you think is right and if someone thinks differently from you then they are automatically wrong
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yeah , whatever 😠
So much for remembrance
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what I object to is your sanctimonious righteousness in what you think is right and if someone thinks differently from you then they are automatically wrong
Well, obviously if someone disagrees with me, I think they're wrong. Why am I sanctimonious? Because I express an opinion?
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You haven't been sanctimonious, what you object to are the frills surrounding remembrance day and the insistence/pressure in some quarters that we mark it personally (by wearing poppy). I get where you're coming from. Regarding the thread title, many attitudes on this subject are mawkish but no way were you saying there should not be remembrance of the war dead, you merely object to the particular way it's pushed.
You said as much here:-
Well, i've worn a white and a red poppy before now, and have lived to tell the tale. I'm all for the two minutes' silence and proper respect; what \I object to is poppy-fascism, mawkishness, and attaching remembrance to right-wing politics.
NS wrote a good post at 1459 today.
There was nothing 'hateful' in your post stevenh, unfortunately not everyone reads posts thoroughly, merely latching on to words and phrases.
For what it's worth, I'm with you.
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So much for remembrance
nope. I have no stomach for a fight today old chap ,
Have a nice day 😘
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nope. I have no stomach for a fight today old chap ,
Have a nice day 😘
Yep, take care. Stay well. Any news from Brisbane?
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If you had fought for your country you might have a very different view.
A big THANK YOU to ALL those who lost their lives in the two world wars and all the conflicts since then.
Yet you might not have a different view - it depends.
My grandfather fought at the Somme.
On his demob, he returned home, flung his four medals in the midden, swore that id he ever got near a union jack again, he'd use it as toilet roll, and would not have a poppy in his house till the day he died in 1969.
You cannot treat all veterans the same and lump them into one category.
For the record, as I always do, I wore both the red and white poppy in church and at the warmemorial today...but at the end of the church service, I niether sang nor acknowledged Lizzie's dirge.
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I'm a pacifist who is friends with a number of war veterans. They are wide varied in their opinions on our current approach to remembrance. They all agree that we need to remember and mourn those murdered in war, just as I do. There isn't a good or bad view on that. It's simplistic to think we cannot disagree on some things yet still come together, indeed if we cannot then it's a betrayal of those who suffered and died.
For a time in the 80s, I only wore the white poppy, then I wore both, now and for sometime I have worn neither, though contributed to both. SteveH is right in that there are undoubtedly some rather mawkish decisions are made about poppies. The idea that everyone on TV has to be seen to be wearing one for what seems to be a growing amount of time. Also there is a lot of dubious unofficial merchandise making political points that I find meritorious such as one metal badge saying 'Try burning this'
I posted this last year just after attending the service in George Square in Glasgow where I embraced one of my best army friends. We disagree on our approach but we both know that our beliefs are founded on the idea of reducing wars and killing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B8wFuZJyMo
I met the author of "green fields of France" (and "The Band played Waltzing Matilda") too many years to be happy about ago.
It was an honour to talk with Eric.
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I met the author of "green fields of France" (and "The Band played Waltzing Matilda") too many years to be happy about ago.
It was an honour to talk with Eric.
SteveH posted his non mawkish thread and having posted The Green Fields here, I thought about The Band Played Waltzing Matilda might suit there. Bogle gets the waste snd the hypocrisy right.
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Yep, take care. Stay well. Any news from Brisbane?
no news at the moment , hopefully they're all safely asleep at the moment
Although I haven't improved my nerves by looking at Qld fire department website
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What I object to is the ritualistic playing of Edward Elgar's beautiful Nimrod variation as though it is a solemn dirge-like hymn.
It has NOTHING to do with solemnity. It is a warm and affectionate tribute to his closest musical friend - August Jaeger, who worked for his publisher. It is Elgar's way of thanking Jaeger for his help, advice and encouragement and recalls long summer evening walks when they discussed music. But, like his Pomp and Circumstance March No 1, it was hijacked and then turned into a mournful elegy. Elgar hated the way his music was used in WW1.
It also saddened him that Britain was at war with Germany, which had given a warm reception to much of his music. Jaeger's family was German and changed its name to Hunter in 1914.
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I niether sang nor acknowledged Lizzie's dirge.
I don't know that one.
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I don't know that one.
For clarity I think he means the National anthem, although I think you may have known that and were just being a little bit naughty. ;)
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No I wasn't being naughty :D, just not thinking about it too much - I might have guessed! I've never heard the Queen called 'Lizzie'. It's not a very good song really, musically or lyrically, but I s'pose down here we're sort of used to it. Don't hear it much these days. I haven't seen the festival of remembrance nor watched the cenotaph today, had other things on mind.
I did notice 'All Quiet on the Western Front' was on television today. Didn't watch as have seen twice before and read book years ago.
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For clarity I think he means the National anthem, although I think you may have known that and were just being a little bit naughty. ;)
Not my national anthem.
Not only bad theology (the old girl's supposed to be head of the CofE, and, presumably, Christian, so prayers for her salvation are superfluous), but anti-Scottish, jingoistic claptrap.
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I can't see anything wrong with giving some time over to the people left behind after they have lost loved ones, to let them know we haven't forgotten the people they loved and have had to give up, given up in an attempt to hopefully make the world a little bit of a better place for the rest of us and with any good luck we've in some way eased the pain of the losses they've had to endure by not forgetting them.
This is the second year we've had a non-religious person officially invited to honour the ceremony along with the belief group men in frocks etc on the remembrance day ceremony at the, secular, cenotaph memorial column.
Regards ippy
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My grandfather fought at the Somme.
On his demob, he returned home, flung his four medals in the midden, swore that id he ever got near a union jack again, he'd use it as toilet roll, and would not have a poppy in his house till the day he died in 1969.
You cannot treat all veterans the same and lump them into one category.
That's as maybe but he still fought at the Somme. He was owed gratitude by very many people.
I niether sang nor acknowledged Lizzie's dirge.
The Battle of the Somme had to be fought because of a series of failures by the ruling classes of Britain and Europe. In fact, almost all the soldiers who die in modern wars die because of the ambitions of their rulers, who are generally safe at home. I wouldn't sing the National Anthem on Remembrance Day either.
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jeremy:- The Battle of the Somme had to be fought because of a series of failures by the ruling classes of Britain and Europe. In fact, almost all the soldiers who die in modern wars die because of the ambitions of their rulers, who are generally safe at home. I wouldn't sing the National Anthem on Remembrance Day either.
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iI agree with you.
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There's abnother reason I won't either sing or acknowledge the dirge. Not only is it both bad theology and jingoistic claptrap, but it is also, in its' fullest form, racist.
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There's abnother reason I won't either sing or acknowledge the dirge. Not only is it both bad theology and jingoistic claptrap, but it is also, in its' fullest form, racist.
The 'fullest form' has never been official.
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The 'fullest form' has never been official.
Nor has it been expunged.
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Nor has it been expunged.
How can you expunge something that isn't and has never been part of the official version?
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I didn't know there was an official version of the national anthem and 'unofficial' verses. I googled and found this:- https://www.royal.uk/national-anthem
The last four lines of the most well known 'unofficial' version are really appalling
(May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen),
am surprised no one has complained about it - because it does exist and is read, most wouldn't know it is incorrect or why.When I googled that's what came up which led me to google 'official' nat anthem.
That bit is such a contrast to this:-
Lord, make the nations see,
That men should brothers be,
And form one family,
The wide world over.
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I didn't know there was an official version of the national anthem and 'unofficial' verses. I googled and found this:- https://www.royal.uk/national-anthem
The last four lines of the most well known 'unofficial' version are really appalling
(May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen),
am surprised no one has complained about it - because it does exist and is read, most wouldn't know it is incorrect or why.When I googled that's what came up which led me to google 'official' nat anthem.
That bit is such a contrast to this:-
Lord, make the nations see,
That men should brothers be,
And form one family,
The wide world over.
Yep.
The original dirge was penned as a rabble rouser during the Jacobite uprising.
That doesn't detract from its' bad theology, jingoistic claptrap and racism.
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I didn't know there was an official version of the national anthem and 'unofficial' verses. I googled and found this:- https://www.royal.uk/national-anthem
The last four lines of the most well known 'unofficial' version are really appalling
(May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen),
am surprised no one has complained about it - because it does exist and is read, most wouldn't know it is incorrect or why.When I googled that's what came up which led me to google 'official' nat anthem.
That bit is such a contrast to this:-
Lord, make the nations see,
That men should brothers be,
And form one family,
The wide world over.
People have complained about it, see Anchorman's posts here, and there have bern other threads on it. Billy Connolly did a bit complaining about 30 years ago in An Audience With Billy Connolly - see below. But given it's never been an official part of it, what's the complaint?
https://youtu.be/i9nnnM-__JQ
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Like so much in our constitutional arrangements (eg Parliament, electoral system, the monarchy etc) the national anthem is firmly in place because "tradition". There are occasional attempts to create interest in a more relevant national anthem but they are quickly disposed of.
I think people who support "tradition" do so because it has a proven track record and provides a sense of firm security.
Very few people accept that the excuse of "tradition" is frequently intellectual and moral laziness - an excuse for not devising something more suited to modern conditions. Hence we end up with a lazy, womanising playboy for a prime minister and a geriatric polytechnic Trotskyite a leader of the opposition.
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I didn't know there was an official version of the national anthem and 'unofficial' verses. I googled and found this:- https://www.royal.uk/national-anthem
The last four lines of the most well known 'unofficial' version are really appalling
(May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen),
am surprised no one has complained about it - because it does exist and is read, most wouldn't know it is incorrect or why.When I googled that's what came up which led me to google 'official' nat anthem.
At the point that was written, Scotland was a part of the UK. "Rebellious Scots" does not refer to all Scots but only the Jacobites and it's an accurate description of them. They were rebelling. Wouldn't you want to crush a rebellion?
Actually, I suppose it's not all that accurate since the leader of the Jacobites was Italian and a fair proportion of his army were mercenaries from France, Ireland or even England. In fact, there is an old saw that there were more Scots fighting for the United Kingdom than for the rebels at Culloden.
Anyway, that verse is not part of the National anthem and, in context, it is not racist.
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At the point that was written, Scotland was a part of the UK. "Rebellious Scots" does not refer to all Scots but only the Jacobites and it's an accurate description of them. They were rebelling. Wouldn't you want to crush a rebellion? Actually, I suppose it's not all that accurate since the leader of the Jacobites was Italian and a fair proportion of his army were mercenaries from France, Ireland or even England. In fact, there is an old saw that there were more Scots fighting for the United Kingdom than for the rebels at Culloden. Anyway, that verse is not part of the National anthem and, in context, it is not racist.
Haud the bus; I'm no Jacobite. As far as I'm concerned, had Chairlie won, we'd be swapping an Italian Franco-Scottish boozer for the drunken German whoremaster. But the ethnic cleansing, repression, destruction of culture (enforced by law) and complete disregard for the situation after the '45 left a very long memory - and we're not talking haggis and heather, either. The depredation and depopulation of vast swathes of Scotland took centuries to heal. Indeed some authorities argue that, had the clearances , Highland and Lowland, not occurred, the population of Scotland would be a third more today that it is at present. Dismissing a verse, unofficial or not, is only papering over the hurt.
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I guess some hurts are never resolved by Mathew 6: 24-25. They just keep festering.
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I guess some hurts are never resolved by Mathew 6: 24-25. They just keep festering.
Yet shouldn't we make redress for a hurt which has consequences for generations born long after that hurt was inflicted?
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Yet shouldn't we make redress for a hurt which has consequences for generations born long after that hurt was inflicted?
Who's 'we' and what sort of redress do you mean ?
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But the ethnic cleansing, repression, destruction of culture (enforced by law) and complete disregard for the situation after the '45 left a very long memory - and we're not talking haggis and heather, either. The depredation and depopulation of vast swathes of Scotland took centuries to heal. Indeed some authorities argue that, had the clearances , Highland and Lowland, not occurred, the population of Scotland would be a third more today that it is at present.
I'm sure you are correct but the depredations were mainly caused by Scottish landowners, not the evil English or their German king.
Dismissing a verse, unofficial or not, is only papering over the hurt.
You are taking it out of context because you like having sticks to beat the English with. The only thing being dismissed is your claim that it was part of the National Anthem.
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There's abnother reason I won't either sing or acknowledge the dirge. Not only is it both bad theology and jingoistic claptrap, but it is also, in its' fullest form, racist.
I'll go with 'Dirge' can't think of any better description of our national anthem, I remember that Scot, Billy Connolly recommending the BBC's Archers theme tune for use as the national anthem, can't think of anything as tuneful to top that suggestion and it'd either make you smile or outright laugh to hear it used as such.
Regards, ippy.
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I'm sure you are correct but the depredations were mainly caused by Scottish landowners, not the evil English or their German king.
You are taking it out of context because you like having sticks to beat the English with. The only thing being dismissed is your claim that it was part of the National Anthem.
Did I claim otherwise?
The destruction of the clan system left an ruling class with no-one to rule - hence the clearances.
Mind you, the purchase of many vawst estates to turf out their occupants and turnh them into Highland deserts for deer stalking and grouse shooting by mainly absentee landlords is still a hot topic here.
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Nor has it been expunged.
It's never sung or printed in full, which sounds like expunging the racist bits to me.
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Yet shouldn't we make redress for a hurt which has consequences for generations born long after that hurt was inflicted?
Who's 'we' and what sort of redress do you mean ?
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It's never sung or printed in full, which sounds like expunging the racist bits to me.
How could it be expunged if it was never there in the first place? You can't expunge a verse from the National Anthem it isn't in the National Anthem.
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I think the verse referred to was the one about confounding their knavish tricks.
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I think the verse referred to was the one about confounding their knavish tricks.
This one:
O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies,
And make them fall:
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix:
God save us all.
I certainly think it needs to be expunged, but only because of trying to rhyme "arise" and "enemies".
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I think the verse referred to was the one about confounding their knavish tricks.
Anchorman was talking about this one
Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King.
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As an atheist and a republican the national anthem is remarkable in alienating me as a citizen in two fundamental way in the first five words and I imagine I'm not alone in that.
The UK national anthem seems anomalous amongst examples from most other countries in focusing neither on the country in question, nor its people.
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As an atheist and a republican the national anthem is remarkable in alienating me as a citizen in two fundamental way in the first five words and I imagine I'm not alone in that.
The UK national anthem seems anomalous amongst examples from most other countries in focusing neither on the country in question, nor its people.
hi prof
I remember getting into bother at school because I would not sing those first 5 words
Detention followed !
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Btw , Catholic kids didn't come into assemblies but were made to wait in an adjoining room
Until we finished , I know one of em just pretended 😂
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Anchorman was talking about this one
Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King.
We couldn't have used that one since 1952 anyway, because "bring" doesn't rhyme with "Queen", quite apart from the fact that ii refers to the Jacobite rising of 1715.