It's mawkish bollocks day on Facebook.

[Walter]

Yep, take care. Stay well. Any news from Brisbane?

no news at the moment , hopefully they're all safely asleep at the moment
Although I haven't improved my nerves by looking at Qld fire department website

[Harrowby Hall]

What I object to is the ritualistic playing of Edward Elgar's beautiful Nimrod variation as though it is a solemn dirge-like hymn.

It has NOTHING to do with solemnity. It is a warm and affectionate tribute to his closest musical friend - August Jaeger, who worked for his publisher. It is Elgar's way of thanking Jaeger for his help, advice and encouragement and recalls long summer evening walks when they discussed music. But, like his Pomp and Circumstance March No 1, it was hijacked and then turned into a mournful elegy. Elgar hated the way his music was used in WW1.

It also saddened him that Britain was at war with Germany, which had given a warm reception to much of his music. Jaeger's family was German and changed its name to Hunter in 1914.

[Robbie]

I niether sang nor acknowledged Lizzie's dirge.

I don't know that one.

[Aruntraveller]

I don't know that one.

For clarity I think he means the National anthem, although I think you may have known that and were just being a little bit naughty. 

[Robbie]

No I wasn't being naughty  , just not thinking about it too much - I might have guessed! I've never heard the Queen called 'Lizzie'. It's not a very good song really, musically or lyrically, but I s'pose down here we're sort of used to it. Don't hear it much these days. I haven't seen the festival of remembrance nor watched the cenotaph today, had other things on mind.

I did notice 'All Quiet on the Western Front' was on television today. Didn't watch as have seen  twice before and read book years ago.

[Anchorman]

For clarity I think he means the National anthem, although I think you may have known that and were just being a little bit naughty. 



 
Not my national anthem.
Not only bad theology (the old girl's supposed to be head of the CofE, and, presumably, Christian, so prayers for her salvation are superfluous), but anti-Scottish, jingoistic claptrap.

[ippy]

I can't see anything wrong with giving some time over to the people left behind after they have lost loved ones, to let them know we haven't forgotten the people they loved and have had to give up, given up in an attempt to hopefully make the world a little bit of a better place for the rest of us and with any good luck we've in some way eased the pain of the losses they've had to endure by not forgetting them.

This is the second year we've had a non-religious person officially invited to honour the ceremony along with the belief group men in frocks etc on the remembrance day ceremony at the, secular, cenotaph memorial column.

Regards ippy

 

[jeremyp]

     
My grandfather fought at the Somme.
On his demob, he returned home, flung his four medals in the midden, swore that id he ever got near a union jack again, he'd use it as toilet roll, and would not have a poppy in his house till the day he died in 1969.
You cannot treat all veterans the same and lump them into one category.

That's as maybe but he still fought at the Somme. He was owed gratitude by very many people.

I niether sang nor acknowledged Lizzie's dirge.

The Battle of the Somme had to be fought because of a series of failures by the ruling classes of Britain and Europe. In fact, almost all the soldiers who die in modern wars die because of the ambitions of their rulers, who are generally safe at home. I wouldn't sing the National Anthem on Remembrance Day either. 

[Robbie]

jeremy:- The Battle of the Somme had to be fought because of a series of failures by the ruling classes of Britain and Europe. In fact, almost all the soldiers who die in modern wars die because of the ambitions of their rulers, who are generally safe at home. I wouldn't sing the National Anthem on Remembrance Day either.
....
iI agree with you.

[Anchorman]

There's abnother reason I won't either sing or acknowledge the dirge. Not only is it both bad theology and jingoistic claptrap, but it is also, in its' fullest form, racist.

[Nearly Sane]

There's abnother reason I won't either sing or acknowledge the dirge. Not only is it both bad theology and jingoistic claptrap, but it is also, in its' fullest form, racist.

The 'fullest form' has never been official.

[Anchorman]

The 'fullest form' has never been official.

   


Nor has it been expunged.

[Nearly Sane]

   


Nor has it been expunged.

How can you expunge something that isn't and has never been part of the official version?

[Robbie]

I didn't know there was an official version of the national anthem and 'unofficial' verses. I googled and found this:- https://www.royal.uk/national-anthem

The last four lines of the most well known 'unofficial' version are really appalling
(May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen),
am surprised no one has complained about it - because it does exist and is read, most wouldn't know it is incorrect or why.When I googled that's what came up which led me to google 'official' nat anthem.

That bit is such a contrast to this:-
Lord, make the nations see,
That men should brothers be,
And form one family,
The wide world over.

[Anchorman]

I didn't know there was an official version of the national anthem and 'unofficial' verses. I googled and found this:- https://www.royal.uk/national-anthem

The last four lines of the most well known 'unofficial' version are really appalling
(May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen),
am surprised no one has complained about it - because it does exist and is read, most wouldn't know it is incorrect or why.When I googled that's what came up which led me to google 'official' nat anthem.

That bit is such a contrast to this:-
Lord, make the nations see,
That men should brothers be,
And form one family,
The wide world over.

   


Yep.
The original dirge was penned as a rabble rouser during the Jacobite uprising.
That doesn't detract from its' bad theology, jingoistic claptrap and racism.

[Nearly Sane]

I didn't know there was an official version of the national anthem and 'unofficial' verses. I googled and found this:- https://www.royal.uk/national-anthem

The last four lines of the most well known 'unofficial' version are really appalling
(May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen),
am surprised no one has complained about it - because it does exist and is read, most wouldn't know it is incorrect or why.When I googled that's what came up which led me to google 'official' nat anthem.

That bit is such a contrast to this:-
Lord, make the nations see,
That men should brothers be,
And form one family,
The wide world over.

People have complained about it, see Anchorman's posts here, and there have bern other threads on it. Billy Connolly did a bit complaining about 30 years ago in An Audience With Billy Connolly - see below. But given it's never been an official part of it, what's the complaint?

https://youtu.be/i9nnnM-__JQ

[Harrowby Hall]

Like so much in our constitutional arrangements (eg Parliament, electoral system, the monarchy etc) the national anthem is firmly in place because "tradition". There are occasional attempts to create interest in a more relevant national anthem but they are quickly disposed of.

I think people who support "tradition" do so because it has a proven track record and provides a sense of firm security.

Very few people accept that  the excuse of "tradition" is frequently intellectual and moral laziness - an excuse for not devising something more suited to modern conditions. Hence we end up with a lazy, womanising playboy for a prime minister and a geriatric polytechnic Trotskyite a leader of the opposition.

[jeremyp]

I didn't know there was an official version of the national anthem and 'unofficial' verses. I googled and found this:- https://www.royal.uk/national-anthem

The last four lines of the most well known 'unofficial' version are really appalling
(May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen),

am surprised no one has complained about it - because it does exist and is read, most wouldn't know it is incorrect or why.When I googled that's what came up which led me to google 'official' nat anthem.

At the point that was written, Scotland was a part of the UK. "Rebellious Scots" does not refer to all Scots but only the Jacobites and it's an accurate description of them. They were rebelling. Wouldn't you want to crush a rebellion?

Actually, I suppose it's not all that accurate since the leader of the Jacobites was Italian and a fair proportion of his army were mercenaries from France, Ireland or even England. In fact, there is an old saw that there were more Scots fighting for the United Kingdom than for the rebels at Culloden.

Anyway, that verse is not part of the National anthem and, in context, it is not racist.

[Anchorman]

At the point that was written, Scotland was a part of the UK. "Rebellious Scots" does not refer to all Scots but only the Jacobites and it's an accurate description of them. They were rebelling. Wouldn't you want to crush a rebellion? Actually, I suppose it's not all that accurate since the leader of the Jacobites was Italian and a fair proportion of his army were mercenaries from France, Ireland or even England. In fact, there is an old saw that there were more Scots fighting for the United Kingdom than for the rebels at Culloden. Anyway, that verse is not part of the National anthem and, in context, it is not racist.

Haud the bus; I'm no Jacobite. As far as I'm concerned, had Chairlie won, we'd be swapping an Italian Franco-Scottish boozer for the drunken German whoremaster. But the ethnic cleansing, repression, destruction of culture (enforced by law) and complete disregard for the situation after the '45 left a very long memory - and we're not talking haggis and heather, either. The depredation and depopulation of vast swathes of Scotland took centuries to heal. Indeed some authorities argue that, had the clearances , Highland and Lowland, not occurred, the population of Scotland would be a third more today that it is at present. Dismissing a verse, unofficial or not, is only papering over the hurt.

[ekim]

I guess some hurts are never resolved by Mathew 6: 24-25.  They just keep festering.

[Anchorman]

I guess some hurts are never resolved by Mathew 6: 24-25.  They just keep festering.

   


Yet shouldn't we make redress for a hurt which has consequences for generations born long after that hurt was inflicted?

[Enki]

   


Yet shouldn't we make redress for a hurt which has consequences for generations born long after that hurt was inflicted?

Who's 'we'  and what sort of redress do you mean ?

[jeremyp]

But the ethnic cleansing, repression, destruction of culture (enforced by law) and complete disregard for the situation after the '45 left a very long memory - and we're not talking haggis and heather, either. The depredation and depopulation of vast swathes of Scotland took centuries to heal. Indeed some authorities argue that, had the clearances , Highland and Lowland, not occurred, the population of Scotland would be a third more today that it is at present.

I'm sure you are correct but the depredations were mainly caused by Scottish landowners, not the evil English or their German king. 

Dismissing a verse, unofficial or not, is only papering over the hurt.

You are taking it out of context because you like having sticks to beat the English with. The only thing being dismissed is your claim that it was part of the National Anthem.

[ippy]

There's abnother reason I won't either sing or acknowledge the dirge. Not only is it both bad theology and jingoistic claptrap, but it is also, in its' fullest form, racist.

I'll go with 'Dirge' can't think of any better description of our national anthem, I remember that Scot, Billy Connolly recommending the BBC's Archers theme tune for use as the national anthem, can't think of anything as tuneful to top that suggestion and it'd either make you smile or outright laugh to hear it used as such.

Regards, ippy.

[Anchorman]

I'm sure you are correct but the depredations were mainly caused by Scottish landowners, not the evil English or their German king. 
You are taking it out of context because you like having sticks to beat the English with. The only thing being dismissed is your claim that it was part of the National Anthem.

   
Did I claim otherwise?
The destruction of the clan system left an ruling class with no-one to rule - hence the clearances.
Mind you, the purchase of many vawst estates to turf out their occupants and turnh them into Highland deserts for deer stalking and grouse shooting by mainly absentee landlords is still a hot topic here.