Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Steve H on January 04, 2020, 12:58:50 PM
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A more general thread, to supplement the more specific one in the philosophy section.
Should we all be vegan? Ideally, yes, on both animal-rights and ecological grounds, and perhaps for our own health's sake as well.. I'm not one, but I am at least eating less meat than I once did. I couldn't give up dairy, though: I want milk in my tea and cheese, and vegan substitutes don't cut the mustard.
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Is it possible to be a vegan and not annoying? Mind you, they're not quite as annoying as the lactose intolerant lot.
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Typical gammon response. My ex-sister-in-law and her husband are vegan, and not remotely annoying. I've met other vegsns as well, and have signally failed to be annoyed by them. Ramesh Ranganathan is vegan and displays a remarkable lack of annoyingness. Gammons, on the other hand...
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Is it possible to be a vegan and not annoying? Mind you, they're not quite as annoying as the lactose intolerant lot.
or the Oliphant in the room ::)
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Typical gammon response. My ex-sister-in-law and her husband are vegan, and not remotely annoying. I've met other vegsns as well, and have signally failed to be annoyed by them. Ramesh Ranganathan is vegan and displays a remarkable lack of annoyingness. Gammons, on the other hand...
Gammon? Eh? WTF is that?
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Gammon? Eh? WTF is that?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gammon_(insult)
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Typical gammon response. My ex-sister-in-law and her husband are vegan, and not remotely annoying. I've met other vegsns as well, and have signally failed to be annoyed by them. Ramesh Ranganathan is vegan and displays a remarkable lack of annoyingness. Gammons, on the other hand...
They're annoying because they expect to be catered for and they always let everyone know. I don't need to know and I couldn't give a shit.
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gammon_(insult)
Oh! I'm really offended. LOL!
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There's nothing like a stereotype!
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Gammon
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They're annoying because they expect to be catered for and they always let everyone know. I don't need to know and I couldn't give a shit.
How many vegans do you know? How many have told you, without being asked, thatt they were vegan?
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Our middle daughter's latest interest is veganism, with a bit of luck it won't last long, LOL.
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Our middle daughter's latest interest is veganism, with a bit of luck it won't last long, LOL.
Why do you hope it won't last long?
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Why do you hope it won't last long?
Our girl has various medical conditions, which have worsened since she took up veganism.
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Our girl has various medical conditions, which have worsened since she took up veganism.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc
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Post hoc ergo propter hoc
Even she thinks her latest craze might have caused her problems, she is spending a fortune on vitamin supplements.
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Even she thinks her latest craze might have caused her problems, she is spending a fortune on vitamin supplements.
And now poisoning the well - you and AB love the fallacies.
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And now poisoning the well - you and AB love the fallacies.
Explain?
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Explain?
Calling it a 'craze' is poisoning the well. And that followed on from your post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy
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Calling it a 'craze' is poisoning the well. And that followed on from your post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy
I wasn't actually referring to veganism in general, but my daughter and the things she takes up for a while before moving onto something else.
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I wasn't actually referring to veganism in general, but my daughter and the things she takes up for a while before moving onto something else.
so that's the ad hominem fallacy. House!
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so that's the ad hominem fallacy. House!
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?
Fallacy bingo.
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I've just read this article:- https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/89/5/1627S/4596952
It's very detailed but weighing it all up, if vegans are careful and scrupulously attentive to their diet there's no reason why they cannot be healthy. They usually are more careful than meat eaters who have more dietary related health problems.
I don't think I could take the next step and become vegan, I prefer a less complicated relationship with food. However I admire those who do as long as they're not evangelical about it which some say they often are. I only know one vegan and she isn't.
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Post hoc ergo propter hoc
"After this, therefore because of this", which is presumably the opposite of what you mean.
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"After this, therefore because of this", which is presumably the opposite of what you mean.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc
I'm aware of the fallacy so named, and if you'd said "That's the 'post hoc ergo propter hoc' fallacy", that would have been ok, but you only said "post hoc ergo propter hoc"
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I'm aware of the fallacy so named, and if you'd said "That's the 'post hoc ergo propter hoc' fallacy", that would have been ok, but you only said "post hoc ergo propter hoc"
It is implied. Not everything needs spelt out.
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It is implied. Not everything needs spelt out.
"...needs to be spelt out", or "...needs spelling out".
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Plain speaking needed here! ;)
Spelt would make a mess anyway if it was out.
(Did you know Spelt is also called 'dinkel wheat'? Gave me a giggle)
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so that's the ad hominem fallacy. House!
How is it ad hominem? I'm not aware LR's daughter has made an argument on this thread.
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Plain speaking needed here! ;)
Spelt would make a mess anyway if it was out.
(Did you know Spelt is also called 'dinkel wheat'? Gave me a giggle)
It is, at least, not an animal product.
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How is it ad hominem? I'm not aware LR's daughter has made an argument on this thread.
It's an ad hominem against the position taken by her daughter by LR
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A Gregg's fan here.
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Just read an excellent book on the subject:
"Five go Gluten Free" from the Enid Blyton for adults collection.
A hilarious take on healthy eating.
Highly recommended.
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It's an ad hominem against the position taken by her daughter by LR
Ad hominem is precisely not an argument against a position. It's an argument against a person who takes up the position as a substitute for a real argument against the position. "My daughter advocates veganism, but then she is an Anglican priest" is an ad hominem. Given that you are not quite sane, it doesn't surprise me that you get this wrong.
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A Gregg's fan here.
The lady in Greggs, she bakes pasties for me...
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.....she charges no fee and they're all gluten free....
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.....she charges no fee and they're all gluten free....
Very good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIFqsHaoy1Y
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Why are vegans hated so much....?
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200203-the-hidden-biases-that-drive-anti-vegan-hatred
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People love to moan that vegans are annoying: research has shown that only drug addicts inspire the same degree of loathing. Now psychologists are starting to understand why – and it’s becoming clear that the reasons aren’t entirely rational.
As the popularity of vegan life continues to gather pace, a tide of vitriol has risen. To eat meat, or not to eat meat: the question has become a battleground, with passionate carnivores and vegan activists deploying some deliciously headline-grabbing tactics. There have been pig robberies. There have been defiant public carvings of deer legs. There have been nude protesters smothered with fake blood. There have been provocative sandwiches.
Though it’s natural for people to disagree, the passionate rage – and even mild irritation – that veganism stirs up seems to defy rational sense.
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Though it’s natural for people to disagree, the passionate rage – and even mild irritation – that veganism stirs up seems to defy rational sense.
Hmmm.......rational sense.
You do realise you are talking about the human race here. Rational sense is not, in my experience, always the first route chosen when exploring any given issue. Emotions and irrational thought are more likely to play a part with some of our population. Hence why we still have racism, sexism, homophobia, class division, etc.
I mean why would any rational being vote for Donald Trump?
I agree with you on a personal level I don't get it, I am supremely uninterested in other people's diets. They can eat what they wish as long as I am free to do the same. And there is certainly increasing evidence that a vegan diet for us humans would benefit the planet enormously, but that's just rationalism talking. Try telling that to a steak eating American and you'll probably find that your violating their constitutional rights. ;)
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Though it’s natural for people to disagree, the passionate rage – and even mild irritation – that veganism stirs up seems to defy rational sense.
Because bacon sandwiches.
There is a perception that vegans are interfering busybodies who want to stop us from eating nice things. I'm sure it's not true in most cases, but the perception is there.
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Here's an interesting story about veganism. It discusses the question about whether vegans can eat scallops. I thought the idea was completely bonkers at first, but actually, the article does raise questions about where the line should be drawn and why you would draw a line at all.
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qvxznq/are-scallops-vegan
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Here's an interesting story about veganism. It discusses the question about whether vegans can eat scallops. I thought the idea was completely bonkers at first, but actually, the article does raise questions about where the line should be drawn and why you would draw a line at all.
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qvxznq/are-scallops-vegan
Drawing lines is a bit bonkers. Take the case of mushrooms, which I suppose are given the vegan all clear. But biology has long allocated fungi to its own separate 'kingdom' - definitely not 'veg'. And according to Prof Richard Forte (and no doubt many other boffins), in evolutionary terms they are actually closer to animals.
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Drawing lines is a bit bonkers. Take the case of mushrooms, which I suppose are given the vegan all clear. But biology has long allocated fungi to its own separate 'kingdom' - definitely not 'veg'. And according to Prof Richard Forte (and no doubt many other boffins), in evolutionary terms they are actually closer to animals.
Well that's one thing, but also there is the question of the central nervous system. Some people say that, if an organism has one, you can't eat it. Well the scallop has a central nervous system but it has about two nerve cells. Then there's the question of environmental damage. But then, some plant based foods are environmentally damaging.
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If you're going to base your diet on compassion, the question should be "is what I'm about to eat capable of suffering?". If it is, you don't eat it. That excludes all vertebrates, and probably dairy products as well, but probably not insects or their products, such as honey (I wouldn't eat insects, but that's from squeamishness. Actually, our modern squeamishness asbout eating insects is a relatively modern, Western idea: other cultures, past and present, think nothing of it.) I doubt if bivalves can suffer, so they should be ok.
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If you're going to base your diet on compassion, the question should be ...
... how do I feel about eating this animal, plant, whatever. How much do I care what the effects of having it as part of my diet are, on it directly or all of life and the environment?
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Just a thought, 'evolution', Veganism should die out eventually.
ippy
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Should we all be vegan?
When I can find a vegan product I can afford, then I will decide!
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When I can find a vegan product I can afford, then I will decide!
What do you know. Spud can't afford spuds.
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What do you know. Spud can't afford spuds.
I meant the vegetarian sausages, etc. :P
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If you're going to base your diet on compassion, the question should be "is what I'm about to eat capable of suffering?".
How do we determine if an organism is capable of suffering?
That excludes all vertebrates,
Does it? What evidence do you you have that all vertebrates are capable of suffering?
and probably dairy products as well
If you offered a dairy cow a choice between the suffering that goes along with being a dairy cow (whatever suffering that may be - maybe none) or never having existed at all, what answer would that cow give do you think?
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I meant the vegetarian sausages, etc. :P
But you said a vegan product, which includes potatoes, unless animals are involved in their farming as they were before mechanisation arrived.
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I've always wondered why so many vegetarian/vegan products try to mimic meat products.
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I've often thought the same, why do veggie/vegan foods have to mimic meat?
These are very nice: https://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/asda-compare-prices/Frozen_Vegetarian/Goodlife_Cauliflower_And_Cheddar_Sausages_4_per_pack_252g.html but they are not disguised as meat, they're just something different.
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When I can find a vegan product I can afford, then I will decide!
Just buy fruit and veg!
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If you offered a dairy cow a choice between the suffering that goes along with being a dairy cow (whatever suffering that may be - maybe none) or never having existed at all, what answer would that cow give do you think?
Not sure what point you are making - assuming that the cow could give an answer, on what basis would it give one outside the range of answers that a human would give?
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Not sure what point you are making - assuming that the cow could give an answer, on what basis would it give one outside the range of answers that a human would give?
How much do we know about how a cow thinks?
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Not sure what point you are making - assuming that the cow could give an answer, on what basis would it give one outside the range of answers that a human would give?
I've no idea what answer a cow might give but I do know that if somebody said "would you prefer never to have lived or live the life you have lived with all the suffering that was in it, I'd definitely go for the latter, as, I suspect, would the majority of humans that have ever existed.
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I've no idea what answer a cow might give but I do know that if somebody said "would you prefer never to have lived or live the life you have lived with all the suffering that was in it, I'd definitely go for the latter, as, I suspect, would the majority of humans that have ever existed.
Ah, I see - but that cannot justify any suffering that could be avoided, for humans or cows.
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How do we determine if an organism is capable of suffering?
Common sense.Does it? What evidence do you you have that all vertebrates are capable of suffering?
I would give them the benefit of the doubt.
If you offered a dairy cow a choice between the suffering that goes along with being a dairy cow (whatever suffering that may be - maybe none) or never having existed at all, what answer would that cow give do you think?
Now you're just being silly.
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If you offered a dairy cow a choice between the suffering that goes along with being a dairy cow (whatever suffering that may be - maybe none) or never having existed at all, what answer would that cow give do you think?
I suspect one of the benefits of being a cow rather than a human is that such questions would never arise. The sinologist A. C Graham once wrote that 'the fundamental error is to suppose that life presents itself with issues which must be formulated in words so that we can envision alternatives and find reasons for preferring one to the other.' Much shite lurks up that particular avenue.
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Cows do suffer when their calves are taken away from them for veal. That is not done so early now thankfully but cows have been known to wander off in grief looking for their calf.
https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/factory-farming/cows/hidden-lives-cows/
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We really must stop thinking of animals as lacking in emotional pain and suffering. We all know of dogs that exhibit almost human like emotions in terms of love, sympathy, care and loyalty. Other animals, certainly cows, also show these traits.
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Scallop news:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-wales-51411680/scallop-fishermen-don-t-want-to-damage-the-environment
Scallops are going to die of old age and "just lie there rotting" because of a lack of progress on plans to allow more fishing in a spot off the Welsh coast, a fisherman has said.
Why die of old age and lie there rotting when you could be food for the starving brexit hit Welsh?
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Cows do suffer when their calves are taken away from them for veal. That is not done so early now thankfully but cows have been known to wander off in grief looking for their calf.
https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/factory-farming/cows/hidden-lives-cows/
We've always been ovo-lacto vegetarian but veal production has been a good reason to go vegan.
I've cut down on milk but my wife went vegan last month. Rather annoyingly, she won't now crack the eggs for our (or now, my) usual weekly omelette - defying logic, she does actually cook it though!
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defying logic, she does actually cook it though!
Aww...true love.