Religion and Ethics Forum

Maybe Gordon, but if there are Committed atheists going about don’t you think the public Should be as well informed as possible?

Why should the public be informed - sounds as if you consider someone being atheist as being inherently a risk to the public (which would be weird seeing as probably about one in three of the public are ... err ... atheist).

So what do you want to do about it - perhaps you think atheists should be required to wear a badge to indicate their atheism. Hmm, maybe that won't go far enough for you - perhaps in your mind they pose so much of a risk that they should be rounded up, deported or incarcerated. Maybe that isn't enough - perhaps you think they should be 'got rid of'.

Vlad's version of 1930s Germany?

What you have to remember Gordon, is, as a nation we are still getting over the shock of working men wearing caps during the King's speech.

In the cinema I always take my bunnet off.

So out of your suitcase of theories on the workings of religion we have 1) Upbringing 2) Church or temple or mosque attendance and now 3) The promise of reward or punishment.

Yup - these are all standard elements in the religious toolbox aimed at inculcating belief. RCC is a fantastic example of 'joined-up' thinking across all those three elements. When a couple marries they are expected to commit to have children and to bring them up RCC. When they have children the RCC expects parents to have the child baptised and at that ceremony for the parents again to commit to their own faith and to do all they can to bring up their child RCC. And the church expects those children to participate in (and go through extensive preparation for) first communion and confirmation. And the church expects attendance at mass and other attendant obligations. And throughout there is a clear message that if these expectations are not met then hell, rather than heaven is the likely post-death outcome.

And perhaps the RCC might be the most joined up (not really sure, but RCC is the example I have the most insight into through my wife and her family), but I think most other religions have rather similar elements of child initiation and development of beliefs, of obligations and of claimed post-death outcomes if those obligations are/are not met.

...also....4) mental incapacity?

Eh - you've lost me now. Where on earth have I suggested mental incapacity?

I wonder if only a committed atheist could detach corporate religion from the general decline of corporate activity.
I was waiting for someone to appeal to the census in the light of your colleague Professor Davey going on about the unreliability of Self Reporting. The census must be the most egregious case of self reporting. As you pointed out not all church or place of worship non-attendee is atheist so we'd have to look at definitions and evidence to guage the extent and there is always the suspicion of argumentum ad populum couched in there.

I'd say the formal census is probably as reliable as any questionnaire can be, in that it is a formal survey (you have to complete is) and it is used for a range of purposes: it reflects the current situation, allows comparisons with previous census results and informs planning - I think I'm right in saying there is a census where you are.

Why are so so greatly troubled that there might be (shock, horror) atheists on the loose?

Coming back to the position of atheism, when I was an atheist, it was a rejection of all the demands - all the rules and rituals etc and what I perceived as demands from adherents that I not only believe in the absurd but adopt their OCD activities, which to me seemed to involve little intellectual curiosity from the adherents who spoke to me about their religions. If I asked them why they did/said/thought what they did, many of them did not know and said they were just following what their parents/ family/ community did. What they described sounded absurd, arbitrary and defied logic and at least if they had acknowledged that, I might have felt less inclined to take a stand by stating my position to be atheist as a rejection of their beliefs.

I found it irritating when followers of a religion talked about heaven and hell in the literal sense and combined this with their attempts at emotional manipulation and fear-mongering based on nothing more than beliefs. If I pointed out the harm some of these beliefs could cause, they had no answers or solutions.

It seemed like everything I heard from followers of religion sounded so absurd and irrational and close-minded - as though they had entered a different world or parallel universe - that it prevented me from giving more than a passing thought to the ideas behind religions. The religious were like a barrier to religion and that was the basis of my atheism.