Religion and Ethics Forum

Yup - similar point to the one I was making in my previous post, albeit phrased differently.

The key to the control is belief - and control over that belief is the key to power in highly hierarchical societies. Those at the top make the rules and either justify them by reference to the divine or even claim they come directly from the divine. It is those with power, influence (and often affluence) who use belief as a lever to maintain their positions of power, influence (and often affluence).

I think it's innate to humans to hold beliefs but I don't think only those in power use beliefs to control. That's one way beliefs are used but I think beliefs are very important to those who lack power because beliefs can also allow the powerless to resist those in power even when threatened with force or death. 

Since our discussion is about complex societal structures that fit the needs for human societies in terms of control, influence, cooperation etc then the relatable abstract concept is what exerts that influence. It's irrelevant whether heaven or hell exists and what they are really like - the beliefs about them are enough to create the societal structures that humans seem to need, and as I said - because they are other-worldly and cannot be proved / disproved - they are an effective way of countering the lure of worldly gains or the fear of worldly loss.

Yup - similar point to the one I was making in my previous post, albeit phrased differently.

The key to the control is belief - and control over that belief is the key to power in highly hierarchical societies. Those at the top make the rules and either justify them by reference to the divine or even claim they come directly from the divine. It is those with power, influence (and often affluence) who use belief as a lever to maintain their positions of power, influence (and often affluence).

Not understanding the point you're making - presumably you agree that heaven and hell would be meaningless and would not work as a method of control or influence unless people relate them to real-world experiences?

I think the key point is that people believe they exist - that's what allows them to work as a method of control or influence.

If you can't imagine it, it can't affect you. People need to relate to a concept for it to generate feelings that influence their behaviour.

But surely the whole point it that they go beyond what it imaginable - so, sure you have experienced good stuff in the real world - but heaven is meant to be unimaginably better, unimaginably good. Sure you have experienced bad stuff in the real world - but hell is meant to be unimaginably worse, unimaginably bad.

But the other element which is challenging for people to imagine is the time scale - this unimaginably good stuff or unimaginably bad stuff goes on for ever, to infinity. And for ever/infinity is also something which people struggle to imagine.

So although there is a hook into the imaginable - people can imagine good/bad stuff that goes on for a long time, heaven and hell take that to a new, basically unimaginable level.

But I come back to my first point - the key here is believing that you are going to have unimaginably good/bad stuff for ever. That's what works in terms of control. If you believe it then it would also work if it were really, really good/bad for a really, really long time (but not for ever). It doesn't work if people don't believe heave and hell actually exist.

But the other point that goes along with believing is that no-one can verify this for you - no-one can come along as say 'hey, yes I was in heaven - wasn't really all that it was cracked up to be and they kicked me out after 6 months' or 'hey, yes I was in hell - wasn't really all that bad at all - all the fun people were there'. The point is the unknowable promise and the unknowable threat which is the key to the control as long as you believe in the promise and believe in the threat.

But the point is that regardless of whether heaven and hell are described in real world terms you cannot experience them in the real world (and nor can you chat to someone who has experience them) - that's the point. That is why they are different to both tangible (the Sydney harbour bridge) and more abstract things (kindness) that can be experienced either first hand or second hand in the real world.

Heaven and hell are kind of uniquely different in that people are taught to believe that they are real, but you will only experience them once you die and that it will be for ever and you cannot get any actual experience of them in the real world.

Not understanding the point you're making - presumably you agree that heaven and hell would be meaningless and would not work as a method of control or influence unless people relate them to real-world experiences?

If you can't imagine it, it can't affect you. People need to relate to a concept for it to generate feelings that influence their behaviour.

Since our discussion is about complex societal structures that fit the needs for human societies in terms of control, influence, cooperation etc then the relatable abstract concept is what exerts that influence. It's irrelevant whether heaven or hell exists and what they are really like - the beliefs about them are enough to create the societal structures that humans seem to need, and as I said - because they are other-worldly and cannot be proved / disproved - they are an effective way of countering the lure of worldly gains or the fear of worldly loss.

We would and we have. But there is a difference - without 'paradise' and 'hell' you actually have to deliver the treat (bread and circuses) or the threat (punishment) to maintain the authority. The notion of "paradise" and "hell" is fundamentally different - you do not need to deliver them, indeed you cannot deliver them. All you have to do is get people to believe they exist in order to retain control.

Again I would agree with your previous post about how these religious concepts are just subsets - in this case Heaven and hell are a subset of promises of reward and punishment to control people. The elite maintain power until someone (another equally privileged elite or someone less privileged who is being controlled) figures out a way to curtail their power.

People make all kinds of promises about abstracts they can't really deliver on but use to control others - happiness, equality, freedom from want and poverty, freedom to choose, democracy etc. People don't even agree on what these concepts are, in order to be able to ascertain or reach consensus on whether they have been acquired or achieved.

As a sub-set - Heaven is a concept of getting whatever you desire and being free from the struggles of life, and hell is a concept of suffering - the descriptions of these concepts are usually fleshed out with real-world examples of bliss and suffering.

I really don't see the problem of this subset. It's a great way of countering the lure of worldly gains or the fear of worldly loss - those in power are afraid of these concepts because they can't control it. If you're not scared of the pain of your real-world body dying because of some belief in being honoured by generations long after you die, or heaven after you die, then the elite can't bomb you into submission.

But again these are different - while they may be subjective, once you have an idea what selfishness and kindness mean (as examples) you have examples that you can draw on from your own experience in the real world of people being selfish or kind to you or to others. The whole point (and perhaps unique) power of "paradise" and "hell" is that you cannot experience them in the real world, but they exist when you die and you will be there for eternity. Or at least if you are taught to believe that to be the case. You can never find out in the real world.

This is where the whole notion of pascal's wager comes from (although it is flawed as it is far too simplistic in not considering the thousands of purported gods with purported attributes).

Usually religions describe heaven and hell concepts in real world terms - gardens beneath which rivers flow, being with loved ones, abundant food and drink etc etc and the alternative is also real-world e.g. burning, pain, suffering ...so you don't have to use too much imagination to get the gist of it.