Author Topic: Brussels  (Read 12857 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Brussels
« Reply #100 on: March 23, 2016, 08:44:09 PM »
The root of all this goes back decades and further to the policies and actions of the West; specifically the US. The ideology is just a tag on to promote the cause of their hate of the West to the Islamic world. The actions of the West in the Middle East is the root of this and as the ME is predominately Muslim and it is these people who have been oppressed then it is this religion that has risen up against the western countries.

I'm not too sure that being organised is a unique thing that is a catalyst to causing extremes. The West is organised........ though mob rule and the crowd effect do play a part.

No one has said being organised is unique.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Brussels
« Reply #101 on: March 23, 2016, 08:47:02 PM »
You took a wrong turn somewhere. You need to reread my posts to get back on track and understand what I'm saying.

What you are saying seems hopelessly confused. Why is a description of what happened in Brussels as being ideologically driven and organised leftist? Note I know you replied to that question before but you went off on some tangent that ignored the question.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Brussels
« Reply #102 on: March 23, 2016, 08:53:27 PM »
You know all about that one, Nearly!!!  ;D  ;D  ;D
Oh and putting little emojis to laugh at your own comments. You are Johnny Canoe aren't you, come on, admit it
 

Jack Knave

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Re: Brussels
« Reply #103 on: March 24, 2016, 01:30:18 PM »
It was a question, trying to follow your position.
And I answered it; they are both leftie and fascist.

Jack Knave

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Re: Brussels
« Reply #104 on: March 24, 2016, 01:48:05 PM »
What you are saying seems hopelessly confused. Why is a description of what happened in Brussels as being ideologically driven and organised leftist? Note I know you replied to that question before but you went off on some tangent that ignored the question.
People of  the left, which includes all this politically correct rubbish, have a certain ideological and philosophical framework of seeing the world and how it works; how people psychologically function and act etc. Prof Davey's assessment typified this attitude and it is wrong. They totally underestimate how the interaction of religion (what I see as the unconscious) and cultural life and daily needs etc. interplay with each other. They are also myopic about how they affect people with their stupid and 'good intentions' policies, by just blundering into peoples lives and cultural perspectives.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Brussels
« Reply #105 on: March 24, 2016, 04:10:52 PM »
People of  the left, which includes all this politically correct rubbish, have a certain ideological and philosophical framework of seeing the world and how it works; how people psychologically function and act etc. Prof Davey's assessment typified this attitude and it is wrong. They totally underestimate how the interaction of religion (what I see as the unconscious) and cultural life and daily needs etc. interplay with each other. They are also myopic about how they affect people with their stupid and 'good intentions' policies, by just blundering into peoples lives and cultural perspectives.
JK - I find your comments bizarre.

The usual criticism of the left is that they are all soft and goody goody, allowing terrorist acts to be explained away on the basis of something that we'd done to them, that it is all justified on the basis of what we've done to them rather than their underlying idealogy - but I haven't done that, but someone else has:

'The root of all this goes back decades and further to the policies and actions of the West; specifically the US. The ideology is just a tag on to promote the cause of their hate of the West to the Islamic world.'

That statement comes from you JK and is almost classic of the kind that is often attributed to those on the left and dismissed by those on the right.

I think the underlying cause is ideology and it is a battle of ideologies, but not fundamentally a battle between islam and the west. Nope it is a battle fundamentally between different views of islam and how that should be implemented in a societal setting. The battle being between the hard liners who want an authoritarian theocracy and those who want a more secular approach, with greater religious freedoms. And this battle can be traced back at least to the Iranian revolution, further through the taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan, through Al Quaeda and now IS. All these being groups on one side of that battle within islam.

The west are really, in my opinion, peripheral to that battle but become involved on the basis that they are likely (certainly now) to side with the more moderate view and are therefore threatening to the extremists and damage the likelihood of their being successful.

I think IS fundamentally want the west to but out of the middle east so they can win their ideological battle with the other view of islam - effectively for the west not to be involved in a kind of idealogical civil war so to speak. I don't think IS realistically think that turning the UK (or Belgium) into an islamic state along their lines of thinking is really realistic. They do think that turning large tracts of the middle east into their kind of islamic state is, and they see the west as getting in the way of their goals.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 04:13:32 PM by ProfessorDavey »

ad_orientem

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Re: Brussels
« Reply #106 on: March 24, 2016, 04:47:03 PM »
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 04:53:29 PM by ad_orientem »
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Brussels
« Reply #107 on: March 24, 2016, 05:15:03 PM »
Recent history in relation to terrorism does seem to indicate that there is a link to a certain religion, as opposed to religions in general, even if these activities are viewed as being dysfunctional interpretations of the relevant religion.

What we aren't seeing is terrorism related to Buddhism or Mormonism, so that whatever the solutions are (if there are any) that would lead to an end of IS terrorism it surely has to involve mainstream Islam which is, just like Christianity, a mix of different strands.

We aren't seeing terrorism related to Buddhists in Europe - Europe is not involved in any political/ military campaigns against Buddhist territory. But in the wider world there are places such as Sri Lanka and Mayanmar, where creating division and an atmosphere of being under threat can bring in new supporters and silence dissent, so Buddist terrorism can be a useful tool in those countries for some political players.

http://world.time.com/2013/06/20/extremist-buddhist-monks-fight-oppression-with-violence/

ETA: I know the title of the link claims Buddhists monks are fighting oppression but in both those countries Buddhists are the overwhelming majority and in Sri Lanka are backed by the State - so "oppression" seems very misleading, especially as the article does not provide details or evidence of oppression.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 05:20:57 PM by Gabriella »
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Jack Knave

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Re: Brussels
« Reply #108 on: March 24, 2016, 08:05:08 PM »
JK - I find your comments bizarre.

The usual criticism of the left is that they are all soft and goody goody, allowing terrorist acts to be explained away on the basis of something that we'd done to them, that it is all justified on the basis of what we've done to them rather than their underlying idealogy - but I haven't done that, but someone else has:

'The root of all this goes back decades and further to the policies and actions of the West; specifically the US. The ideology is just a tag on to promote the cause of their hate of the West to the Islamic world.'

That statement comes from you JK and is almost classic of the kind that is often attributed to those on the left and dismissed by those on the right.

You're thinking of the hard left. They're just nuts. What you call right I would call leftie but they are also leaning to the fascist side. These you call right are lefties because they have taken on this political correct crap but they are fascistesque because they use it to control the masses. I'm well aware that what I said is held by the hard left but I say it because it is true not because of any political leanings on my part.

Quote
I think the underlying cause is ideology and it is a battle of ideologies, but not fundamentally a battle between islam and the west. Nope it is a battle fundamentally between different views of islam and how that should be implemented in a societal setting. The battle being between the hard liners who want an authoritarian theocracy and those who want a more secular approach, with greater religious freedoms. And this battle can be traced back at least to the Iranian revolution, further through the taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan, through Al Quaeda and now IS. All these being groups on one side of that battle within islam.

The west are really, in my opinion, peripheral to that battle but become involved on the basis that they are likely (certainly now) to side with the more moderate view and are therefore threatening to the extremists and damage the likelihood of their being successful.
People only latch on to desperate measures in desperate times. The content of the Quran has always been there and has therefore always been open to the interpretation ISIS is using it for. The reason it has been applied as it is now is because of desperate time for the Muslim world caused by the West's abuse of it power world wide (many peoples around the world hate the US in particular and the West generally) and in the Middle East over the decades. This is the root of the cause and the ideology and religious perspective is just a façade to coat this angst, a kind of sugary coating to make the pill go down; a coating which does however flavour the inner content. 

Quote
I think IS fundamentally want the west to but out of the middle east so they can win their ideological battle with the other view of islam - effectively for the west not to be involved in a kind of idealogical civil war so to speak. I don't think IS realistically think that turning the UK (or Belgium) into an islamic state along their lines of thinking is really realistic. They do think that turning large tracts of the middle east into their kind of islamic state is, and they see the west as getting in the way of their goals.
Quite the contrary. They want the West and specifically the US to come in because they want revenge, they want to cause American troop deaths which for them would be a sweet victory - why else do they film and exhibit those Westerns they execute with such joy? Because they hope anger the West so that they will rush into the ME with ground troops. As for the Muslims that won't join their cause they just see them as traitors and as with traitors in WWI they are shot or killed. Traitors are wrapped in the mantle of being unfaithful to Allah which gives it even more force for them, hence their savagery.