Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3291404 times)

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22325 on: September 20, 2017, 04:05:55 PM »
enki wrote:

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this entity wanted to transfer the responsibility for humans not obeying commands onto the humans themselves and then punishing them for their choices by expelling them from this paradisal state to a newly created state.

It reminds me of a Mafia boss, who insulates himself from the bad stuff, and then blames his staff for doing things the wrong way, but doesn't blame himself for setting the whole thing up.   

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22326 on: September 20, 2017, 04:09:07 PM »
Vlad,


You are asking me to conduct a thought experiment. Firstly there is a paradisal state. Secondly post paradisal conditions are worse than the paradisal state. Therefore

1) A paradisal state has been created

2) Humans have been created

3) Expulsion from this state is bad

No response is needed, whether the humans chose to disobey a command or not, because the entity who is responsible for all the above(including the quality/imposition of free choice, temptation, curiosity etc.)is that which created it. Hence there is no need to create a state with such post paradisal conditions. I would see that as completely appropriate.

unless

this entity wanted to transfer the responsibility for humans not obeying commands onto the humans themselves and then punishing them for their choices by expelling them from this paradisal state to a newly created state.

I would see that as entirely inappropriate.
I disagree. Since the consequences of evil effectively destroy paradise in any case the post paradisal state is instigated by human decision. It is demonstrated that if humans establish themselves as the ultimate authority paradise ceases to exist. what you are therefore proposing is the abolition of consequence.

That said God wishes eventual restoration hence the eventual return to heaven where humanity walks once again with God. If that is what we want.

God's only punishment then need only constitute endorsing the consequence of human decision and action.

 Enhanced punishment, if we cannot discount it, serves the purpose of deterrence.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22327 on: September 20, 2017, 04:11:10 PM »
enki wrote:

It reminds me of a Mafia boss, who insulates himself from the bad stuff
Hence the crucifixion.
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wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22328 on: September 20, 2017, 04:16:08 PM »
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22329 on: September 20, 2017, 04:38:57 PM »
I disagree. Since the consequences of evil effectively destroy paradise in any case the post paradisal state is instigated by human decision. It is demonstrated that if humans establish themselves as the ultimate authority paradise ceases to exist. what you are therefore proposing is the abolition of consequence.

That said God wishes eventual restoration hence the eventual return to heaven where humanity walks once again with God. If that is what we want.

God's only punishment then need only constitute endorsing the consequence of human decision and action.

 Enhanced punishment, if we cannot discount it, serves the purpose of deterrence.

I'm sure you disagree. No problem.

Just a few points:

1)I don't see that disobeying a command is necessarily evil.

2)If  the consequences of evil is to destroy paradise and therefore any ultimate post paradisal state is instigated by human decision, then the entity that created all of the above is ultimately responsible

3) There is no place in this thought experiment for the idea of humans wishing to become an ultimate authority, just that they disobeyed a command. What that may lead to is the responsibility of this entity, which I assume is the ultimate authority in this scenario.

4) The idea that God wants eventual restoration with a humanity which accepts that it has broken the rules seems to me to be just wishful thinking on your part with not a scrap of evidence to support it.

5)The idea of a God of integrity and responsibility seems to have taken quite a blow then, as He sets everything up so that if humans make wrong decisions then its their fault, not His.

6) So punishment is what is needed to bring those humans into line, it seems.
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wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22330 on: September 20, 2017, 04:49:19 PM »
You could say that God sets humans up to fail, couldn't you?   And piles a ton of shit on them for doing that.   
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22331 on: September 20, 2017, 05:05:01 PM »
You could say that God sets humans up to fail, couldn't you?
That would be great wouldn't it off the hook and a get out of jail free card.

Have you studied where the tons of shit in world are coming from?
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Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22332 on: September 20, 2017, 05:16:23 PM »
That would be great wouldn't it off the hook and a get out of jail free card.

Have you studied where the tons of shit in world are coming from?

But it wouldn't, Vlad. If you have no belief in a god then it surely follows that you have no 'get out of jail free card'. Responsibility for human created shit(in the nicest sense, of course) goes no further than, well, humans.
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22333 on: September 20, 2017, 05:17:01 PM »


Have you studied where the tons of shit in world are coming from?
Yes.
Your keyboard is a major contributor.
 ::)
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22334 on: September 20, 2017, 05:28:43 PM »
I'm sure you disagree. No problem.

Just a few points:

1)I don't see that disobeying a command is necessarily evil.

2)If  the consequences of evil is to destroy paradise and therefore any ultimate post paradisal state is instigated by human decision, then the entity that created all of the above is ultimately responsible

3) There is no place in this thought experiment for the idea of humans wishing to become an ultimate authority, just that they disobeyed a command. What that may lead to is the responsibility of this entity, which I assume is the ultimate authority in this scenario.

4) The idea that God wants eventual restoration with a humanity which accepts that it has broken the rules seems to me to be just wishful thinking on your part with not a scrap of evidence to support it.

5)The idea of a God of integrity and responsibility seems to have taken quite a blow then, as He sets everything up so that if humans make wrong decisions then its their fault, not His.

6) So punishment is what is needed to bring those humans into line, it seems.
Enki           Could I answer these point by point.
1: It depends on the grounds of the disobedience. Maybe in obedience to a higher authority. Adam and Eve have experience of the ultimate authority and desire, it seems to be their own ultimate authority.

2: No since it is the act of humanity seeking ultimate authority from itself. Plus there is an alternative path ''walking with God'' of which they had experience. God is only responsible in the sense that a robbed Bank is responsible because it is there.

3:It is not enough just to say ''they disobeyed a command'' because the question that proceeds from that is ''why/motivation/cause/context'' God has no cause or motivation will or desire for this.

4: I think the key phrase here is ''It seems to me''.
It does kinda look as though humanity is in deep irrevocable shit. However, for some of us religion/seeking God is worth a punt. Speaking personally though I never banked or bargained for the religion I have.

5: Has God failed? What kind of entity could judge that?

6: We know that punishment is needed to keep people in line. The question is deciding whether that means revenge or correction.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22335 on: September 20, 2017, 05:30:27 PM »
Responsibility for human created shit(in the nicest sense, of course) goes no further than, well, humans.
So you agree with me then.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22336 on: September 20, 2017, 05:32:12 PM »
enki wrote:

It reminds me of a Mafia boss, who insulates himself from the bad stuff, and then blames his staff for doing things the wrong way, but doesn't blame himself for setting the whole thing up.

The Godthefather?
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22337 on: September 20, 2017, 05:41:18 PM »
BHS
Gabriella,

The ‘planes thing was pointing out that you can justify anything when you reference your faith. The equality legislation point argued that you shouldn’t be exempt from it if you also benefit from tax breaks funded by everyone.
And I repeat my response - you can justify anything when you reference your belief so you are discriminating against religious belief. It is just your over-simplified assertion that criminal acts in the name of political or moral beliefs are based on reasoning whereas criminal acts in the name of religious beliefs are not based on reasoning  - you have not demonstrated this assertion to be true.

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Of course it is. Both though legitimise faith by privileging it over just guessing about stuff. A suicide bomber for example could say, “but clearly you think faith is better than guessing too because you allow it special privileges in your society” could he not? It’s the slippery slope point. 
That's a fallacy. If people are accorded special privileges it is because there is a legal process for examining the particular situation and presumably some benefits or reasons are identified by the State justifying those privileges and so the privilege is not a criminal act. This is a completely different situation from someone breaking the law.

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I think I have. When the defence used by the CofE for special treatment is the same defence used by the suicide bomber – ie, “faith – how should we argue against one but not the other?
See above - the argument is examined by a legal process and if it is deemed justified the CofE gets its special treatment. This process is open to scrutiny and can be altered by the tax payers through a democratic process. This is not equivalent to the situation with the suicide bomber who breaks the law for a political or religious or moral cause. 

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Yes it does. The rightness or wrongness of a position in one sphere doesn’t change because you might be able to find examples of the same rationale used elsewhere.
No it doesn't. The criteria is whether the action is outside the law, not whether the action is based on a belief - religious or moral or political. 

Since there are opposing views on just how much reason vs emotion is employed in arriving at moral or political beliefs, it is just your assertion that actions to further a political or moral issue are reasoned or evidence-based and actions to further a religious issue are not reasoned or evidenced. Therefore focusing your criticism on religious belief seems biased. If an application is made to open a mosque or a social organisation on the same site - the arguments in support of both will be based on reasoning - such as a cost-benefit analysis, assessment of need, demographics etc. When terrorist acts are committed the justifications given by the criminal are a lot more reasoned than "it's my faith" or "it's my political belief". Your over-simplification of this does not make a convincing argument.

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Nope. Religious faith is religious faith – that’s the beginning and end of the conversation. It’s epistemically no better than guessing. Moral and political judgments on the other hand tend at least to have reason and evidence to support them – moral philosophy and economics as examples.
Except that is not an accurate description of the conversation. Your over-simplification does not work in the real world. You stated that your issue was with special privileges or criminal actions based on beliefs and you have asserted that actions in the name of a religious faith do not involve reasoning but criminal actions based on moral or political beliefs do involve reasoning or "tend to" involve reasoning.

Your assertion about the motivation for criminal acts is just guessing if you can't present evidence - such as a link to a statement from a suicide bomber where he only cites his faith to justify his action as opposed to reasoning that the act was justified based on moral arguments or a political or moral grievance.

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That’s not to say that either provide certainty (indeed it’s a strength that they don’t claim too – another difference from religious faith by the way – because that way they’re amenable to change), but they’re qualitatively different in that respect from the finger in the air certainties of faith.
Again an oversimplification, given religious beliefs and practices are also amenable to change and have changed.

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No, because one of those defences could be evidence. “On the basis of the evidence available to me at the time, I had no choice but to act as I did” would be taken into account by a court of law. “But that was my faith belief” on the other hand would not.
For the former to work as a defence, the court would have to share the moral belief that violence is justified in certain situations.       

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No it doesn’t. My belief in the fact of Mars is qualitatively different from someone else’s belief that there are little green men living there.
Belief in the fact? What does that mean? Either something is a fact or it isn't - your beliefs about facts are not relevant to this discussion. And Mars is irrelevant to the issue of crimes being committed based on religious, moral or political beliefs.

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No, but some use their faith beliefs to validate the atrocities they commit. The 9/11 hijackers for example were pious men. That’s the point.
They were also political men with morals. So what's the point? Your issue was whether beliefs can be successfully used as a defence to a crime. Their religious, political or moral beliefs were not successfully used as a defence.

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When they do that those types of defences can be weighed and taken into account or not. Public interest for example is sometimes a successful defence for breaking privacy laws. By contrast, “but that’s my faith” is evidentially white noise.
Who has successfully argued "that's my faith" as a defence to an act of terrorism? You are arguing against something that hasn't happened. 

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We’re going round in circles here – there was no “wrong” in their minds if you also want the premise that they “knew only good”.
Yes we are going around in circles and for the story to work they would have to know what "wrong" meant regardless of your guess / psychological assessment of them, so I'll go with the premise of the story that A&E knew what wrong meant. As I said we can agree to disagree or keep going round in circles.     
 

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Well, neither of us knows for sure as it hasn’t been tested. Entrapment rules vary country-by-country too, and indeed state-by-state in the US. In general though most courts would ask:

1. Did the official create an opportunity that would not otherwise have existed? (yes)

2. Did the official seek out the accused to tell them about the opportunity he’d created? (yes)

3. Did the accused have a predisposition to criminal activity? (no)

4. Did the official give any reason for not disobeying him other than, “because I say so”? (no)

5. Could the accused reasonably have understood that what they did would be criminal or even objectively wrong rather than just disobeying someone who claimed to be authoritative? (no)

Looks like a slam dunk case of entrapment to me.
It doesn't to me. Where are you getting this list of tests from for entrapment, especially nos. 4 and 5? I have not seen that in any legal definition of entrapment. And creating an opportunity to commit a wrong act is not entrapment unless you have some case law to link to that supports your version of entrapment.

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Couple of problems there. First, when they ask why, do you reply “because I say so” or do you give them reasons? If it’s the latter, the analogy fails.

Second, you’ve introduced the notion of punishment – ie, a consequence for wrongdoing. Again, that disqualifies the analogy. In the myth, the deal is that “God” says, “Look, I’m a talking snake acting on behalf of God. No really. I am I tell you. Only you just have to take my word for that. Anyways…let me draw your attention to this tree I’ve set up specially for you not to pay any attention too. And I’d rather you didn’t pay any attention to it because, well, I say so. Bye then.”
My answer was not an analogy to the A&E story - you asked me a question and I answered it.

By the way, my kids don't always give a toss about my reasons - I sometimes save my breath because I know that sometimes it finally boils down to "because I say so". And I don't always tell them that I am going to punish them and then give them a choice. Sometimes I tell them to do something, they don't, I punish them - no advance warning given.

BY the way, not sure if your version of the story is the Christian version, but in the Muslim version A&E are told by God not to approach the tree because they would be one of the wrongdoers. We already know that I think they knew what wrong meant. And no snake in the Muslim version encouraging A&E to commit a wrong act. Instead it's Satan telling them that "...Your Lord did not forbid you this tree save that you should become Angels or become of the immortals.” (Quran 7:20).


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That’s right, you can’t. The tests for entrapment are different from and much tougher than that – see above.

The point rather is whether it “works” for the legal definition(s), which it does – see above.
No it doesn't - see above.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22338 on: September 20, 2017, 05:50:23 PM »
enki wrote:

It reminds me of a Mafia boss, who insulates himself from the bad stuff, and then blames his staff for doing things the wrong way, but doesn't blame himself for setting the whole thing up.
It reminds me of someone setting a test and awarding grades based on how people performed in the test. The purpose of setting up a test presumably is to grade the subjects doing the test.
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wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22339 on: September 20, 2017, 06:26:08 PM »
It reminds me of someone setting a test and awarding grades based on how people performed in the test. The purpose of setting up a test presumably is to grade the subjects doing the test.

Yeah, but in the Christian scheme of things, everybody fails.   Arguably, God knew that everybody would, but he kept on regardless, he's not a quitter.  And he knew they would fail, as he'd made them!   But, here is the bright spot, God has provided Jesus to save us, so that's all right.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22340 on: September 20, 2017, 07:20:10 PM »
Yeah, but in the Christian scheme of things, everybody fails.   Arguably, God knew that everybody would, but he kept on regardless, he's not a quitter.  And he knew they would fail, as he'd made them!   But, here is the bright spot, God has provided Jesus to save us, so that's all right.
So very close to the truth.  And by accepting Jesus as our Saviour, we become aware of our past human failings and come to know that despite these failings we are redeemed by His precious blood.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
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Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22341 on: September 20, 2017, 07:25:23 PM »
So very close to the truth.  And by accepting Jesus as our Saviour, we become aware of our past human failings and come to know that despite these failings we are redeemed by His precious blood.
Sarcasm bypass holding up well, I see.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22342 on: September 20, 2017, 08:45:47 PM »
So you agree with me then.

Yes indeed, but for entirely different reasons. For me the story of Adam and Eve is just a story. I  don't need a story where humans are fallen at all. There never was an Eden as far as I am concerned. Without a god to believe in, we are entirely responsible for what we do, responsible for all the good stuff and the shit stuff. If you call that agreeing, I have no problem at all. :)
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Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22343 on: September 20, 2017, 08:59:06 PM »
Sarcasm bypass holding up well, I see.

I think that AB just latches on to something, ignoring or not understanding Wiggs' sarcastic intent, in order to do just a little bit more proselytizing, in the hope, I assume, of capturing more people for his cause. :)
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22344 on: September 20, 2017, 09:21:10 PM »
I think that AB just latches on to something, ignoring or not understanding Wiggs' sarcastic intent, in order to do just a little bit more proselytizing, in the hope, I assume, of capturing more people for his cause. :)
I'm glad I read your reply there.
I was just about to put my coat on and pop off down to church to see if I could sign up!
Phew.... :-[
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22345 on: September 20, 2017, 09:24:11 PM »
I'm glad I read your reply there.
I was just about to put my coat on and pop off down to church to see if I could sign up!
Phew.... :-[

 ;D
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22346 on: September 21, 2017, 08:24:51 AM »
Yes indeed, but for entirely different reasons. For me the story of Adam and Eve is just a story. I  don't need a story where humans are fallen at all. There never was an Eden as far as I am concerned. Without a god to believe in, we are entirely responsible for what we do, responsible for all the good stuff and the shit stuff. If you call that agreeing, I have no problem at all. :)
I think then we are agreed on the existence and the effects of alienation and human evil and the evidence for that.

Can we leave things as they are with a bit of a philosophical shrug though? I don't think that's possible. Since there is a huge element of history here, there is a sense in which further purposeful examination of the messes we are in, has to involve , finding our selves rewinding to the beginning.

Examining morality then does involve history, anthropology etc. but it also involves philosophy. We are examining a cause and effect thing (moral decision). Science it might be argued does not actually do morality.

We cannot ignore the conclusion of the A and E allegory; that we live in a world of human good and evil and it sounds as if you haven't.

We have I feel a duty to analyse this situation and seek remedy and for me a solely scientific explanation can lead to an 'explaining away' rather than a proper analysis.

I'm afraid I for one find a non literalist/allegorical study of the A and E story intellectually and spiritually productive in the analysis of the human condition.

I can only wish that your journey to the bottom of the issues are such.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22347 on: September 21, 2017, 09:20:12 AM »
I think then we are agreed on the existence and the effects of alienation and human evil and the evidence for that.

Can we leave things as they are with a bit of a philosophical shrug though? I don't think that's possible. Since there is a huge element of history here, there is a sense in which further purposeful examination of the messes we are in, has to involve , finding our selves rewinding to the beginning.

Examining morality then does involve history, anthropology etc. but it also involves philosophy. We are examining a cause and effect thing (moral decision). Science it might be argued does not actually do morality.

We cannot ignore the conclusion of the A and E allegory; that we live in a world of human good and evil and it sounds as if you haven't.

We have I feel a duty to analyse this situation and seek remedy and for me a solely scientific explanation can lead to an 'explaining away' rather than a proper analysis.

I'm afraid I for one find a non literalist/allegorical study of the A and E story intellectually and spiritually productive in the analysis of the human condition.

I can only wish that your journey to the bottom of the issues are such.
Good post
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22348 on: September 21, 2017, 09:29:27 AM »
I think that AB just latches on to something, ignoring or not understanding Wiggs' sarcastic intent, in order to do just a little bit more proselytizing, in the hope, I assume, of capturing more people for his cause. :)
There's a similarity with Poe's Law here: it's impossible to tell whether these people actually do get sarcasm but glide over it in their continued (but of course futile) efforts at proselytisation, or whether they really and truly are this clueless.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #22349 on: September 21, 2017, 09:41:04 AM »
There's a similarity with Poe's Law here: it's impossible to tell whether these people actually do get sarcasm but glide over it in their continued (but of course futile) efforts at proselytisation, or whether they really and truly are this clueless.
Of course I recognised Wiggs attempt at sarcasm, but in this and other posts he does display a knowledge of Christian philosophy which I felt obliged to point out.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton