Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 2303313 times)

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24775 on: December 12, 2017, 01:44:52 PM »
AB

Quote
Your claim of a "logical analysis of human free will" was clearly nonsense.
If you do not think this is correct, explain exactly why. No more dodging the question.





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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24776 on: December 12, 2017, 07:32:22 PM »
Well yes, that is correct, broadly.  Subconscious always precedes full consciousness.  Subconscious is faster, less refined and more primitive than conscious.  Things start out in subconscious and propagate into our consciousness stream.  Understanding this has been used in human image recognition for instance where we can wire people up to sensors and detect when they have recognised something before they 'know' that they have recognised it. I often use a similar technique, for instance when I want to see if my name is included in a long list of names, rather than reading each name in turn I find I can scan the entire list and locate my name much more quickly that way.  We all are subject to various profound false intuitions, this is one of them, that we think we operate in 'real' time, when we are always subject to a time delay.  Another false intuition if that of direct experience - go look at a tree and we take if for granted that it is the tree that we are seeing; but actually we never actually get to see the tree at all but instead have an internal experience that is a constructed representation of the tree derived from visual primitives in the thalamus.  That we all live with these utterly false intuitions does not matter normally, they work very well.  If you want to construct theories of human behaviour though, we need to factor these curiosities in.
But how can you possibly explain how I can subconsciously compose a reply to your post before I am consciously aware of it?
It is blindingly obvious that my conscious awareness is driving the response in real time.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free Will is the highest truth about humanity - GK Chesterton
Remove grace, and you have nothing whereby to be saved. Remove free will and you have nothing that could be saved."
-- Anselm of Canterbury

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24777 on: December 12, 2017, 09:04:32 PM »
But how can you possibly explain how I can subconsciously compose a reply to your post before I am consciously aware of it?
It is blindingly obvious that my conscious awareness is driving the response in real time.
Your subconscious always proceeds slightly ahead in a temporal sense.  Thus you've read a post before you 'know' that you've read it, and you've already started composing your reply before you 'know' that you've started writing a response.   The difference, around 400 ms, is too small and too subtle for us to be aware of it and of course we could not be aware of it anyway, by definition; our conscious awareness is a complex construct of more fundamental mental processes and we do not have explicit access to those preconscious mind states.  This concept also helps to explain the phenomenon of blindsight, in which people suffering from that condition can see, but do not 'know' that they can see.  Conscious awareness is an enormously complex construct, the outcome of billions of multipass biochemical reactions, there is no way all that processing can happen instantaneously, it takes time.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24778 on: December 12, 2017, 11:10:30 PM »
AB
If you do not think this is correct, explain exactly why. No more dodging the question.
If you look back on my posts, you will find I have explained it in some detail several times.  I am fully aware that some people have rejected my explanation, but I stand by it as a logical conclusion that an act of human free will can't be implemented by physical means alone.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free Will is the highest truth about humanity - GK Chesterton
Remove grace, and you have nothing whereby to be saved. Remove free will and you have nothing that could be saved."
-- Anselm of Canterbury

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24779 on: December 12, 2017, 11:22:25 PM »
Your subconscious always proceeds slightly ahead in a temporal sense.  Thus you've read a post before you 'know' that you've read it, and you've already started composing your reply before you 'know' that you've started writing a response.   The difference, around 400 ms, is too small and too subtle for us to be aware of it and of course we could not be aware of it anyway, by definition; our conscious awareness is a complex construct of more fundamental mental processes and we do not have explicit access to those preconscious mind states.  This concept also helps to explain the phenomenon of blindsight, in which people suffering from that condition can see, but do not 'know' that they can see.  Conscious awareness is an enormously complex construct, the outcome of billions of multipass biochemical reactions, there is no way all that processing can happen instantaneously, it takes time.
But how can a time lag explain how your deliberate conscious response occurs in your subconscious before you are aware of it ?
Do performer's ad lib responses occur sub consciously before they are aware of it?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free Will is the highest truth about humanity - GK Chesterton
Remove grace, and you have nothing whereby to be saved. Remove free will and you have nothing that could be saved."
-- Anselm of Canterbury

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24780 on: December 13, 2017, 12:03:18 AM »

Do performer's ad lib responses occur sub consciously before they are aware of it?
Yes.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24781 on: December 13, 2017, 06:56:59 AM »
But how can a time lag explain how your deliberate conscious response occurs in your subconscious before you are aware of it ?
Do performer's ad lib responses occur sub consciously before they are aware of it?

To some extent, yes, see reply #24777; it is particularly relevant in fast moving situations, for instance in a game of table tennis we don't have time to stop and think about how to return the ball, the consciousness lag would lose us the game for sure. Our minds are racing ahead of 'us', solving complex equations of motion without 'us' ever being aware of the computation, it all goes on under the hood, below the level of our conscious awareness.  Our minds react to a situation and trigger a response before 'we' become 'aware' of the situation in the first place. Our conscious awareness is not how it feels - direct real time experience of reality, but rather it is a consequential construct of preconscious mind.  This also means that the 'me', or 'I', or 'we' in all the above sentences, is also an aspect of that same phenomenon of mind.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 07:05:49 AM by torridon »

Never Talk to Strangers

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24782 on: December 13, 2017, 08:11:02 AM »
If you look back on my posts, you will find I have explained it in some detail several times.

You have posted nothing even remotely resembling a logical analysis which is what you said you'd done. You don't seem to have actually thought about the basic problem at all - let alone analysed it. For example, you've frequently asserted that "we" have control without asking what "we" are and how "we" make choices.

Other than that you've just hidden behind bland, meaningless phrases like "spiritually induced interaction" and stubborn attempts to pretend that determinism can mean something different if it isn't physical.

I am fully aware that some people have rejected my explanation, but I stand by it as a logical conclusion that an act of human free will can't be implemented by physical means alone.

But you haven't posted any logic. What are the premises? What logical steps takes you from the premises to your conclusion?

In addition, people haven't just rejected your 'explanation', they have explained why you are wrong. I have posted a lot of detail only to be met with bland and thought-free rejections (e.g. #24767) or simply no reply at all (#24772).

You don't seem remotely interested in either logic or analysis...
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24783 on: December 14, 2017, 11:23:45 AM »
I was chatting with my wife about control - and she said that religion is an attempt at fake control over life.   It made me think about the existentialists, who argued that we are faced with being anxious, because we are not in control.   I asked her where she was going shopping this morning, and how she decided, and it just comes to her, unannounced.  Alan's ideas about control just seems like something from the 18th century, or earlier.   Well, premodern.

The other thing is that the idea of the unconscious - or subconscious if you like - has smashed up notions of control, since my thoughts and feelings come from the black lagoon.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 11:34:09 AM by wigginhall »
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floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24784 on: December 14, 2017, 11:38:47 AM »
If you look back on my posts, you will find I have explained it in some detail several times.  I am fully aware that some people have rejected my explanation, but I stand by it as a logical conclusion that an act of human free will can't be implemented by physical means alone.

You haven't explained you have just said the same thing over and over again, which makes it less meaningful each time you state it. ::)

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24785 on: December 14, 2017, 11:57:31 AM »
That's what 'explain' means for some Christians, endless repetition of some phrase, and after all, God 'explains' everything.   It's like your granny's knicker elastic, infinitely extendable.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24786 on: December 15, 2017, 10:07:54 AM »
To some extent, yes, see reply #24777; it is particularly relevant in fast moving situations, for instance in a game of table tennis we don't have time to stop and think about how to return the ball, the consciousness lag would lose us the game for sure. Our minds are racing ahead of 'us', solving complex equations of motion without 'us' ever being aware of the computation, it all goes on under the hood, below the level of our conscious awareness.  Our minds react to a situation and trigger a response before 'we' become 'aware' of the situation in the first place. Our conscious awareness is not how it feels - direct real time experience of reality, but rather it is a consequential construct of preconscious mind.  This also means that the 'me', or 'I', or 'we' in all the above sentences, is also an aspect of that same phenomenon of mind.
Your detailed explanation fits well with observed animal behaviour, but it falls far short of explaining how humans work.  You seem to be convinced that all our responses occur sub consciously before we become aware of them, yet your well thought out replies to my posts offer overwhelming evidence that you are able to consciously manipulate and control your response.  How can you possibly be convinced that all your detailed replies get formulated in your sub conscious without any conscious interaction?  I consciously interact with this world - it is what I do at the most fundamental level of reality.  It is what we all do.  It is what God intended us to do.  Our ability to consciously interact is no accident, and it certainly cannot be defined solely by the material reactions in our brain. 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 10:10:03 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free Will is the highest truth about humanity - GK Chesterton
Remove grace, and you have nothing whereby to be saved. Remove free will and you have nothing that could be saved."
-- Anselm of Canterbury

Sassy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24787 on: December 15, 2017, 10:15:26 AM »
Surly Sass, you must realise how soppy it is to think the bible proves that the bible is right? You're not really that daft, are you?

Regards ippy

Let me see... How daft was Jesus Christ in that his belief in Gods word and his claim to come from God made him capable of all the miracles he performed. Faith dead without actions?

You surely cannot think you actually had an argument there in the greater scheme of things relating to both God and Jesus Christ in the bible?

I think your mind is closed.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24788 on: December 15, 2017, 10:18:29 AM »
I believe all things in life physical and spiritual affect the human being.
But not one human being outside God can really explain why they exist at all.

Whatever man believes, he simply chooses what he/she believes.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24789 on: December 15, 2017, 10:30:12 AM »
I believe all things in life physical and spiritual affect the human being.
But not one human being outside God can really explain why they exist at all.

Whatever man believes, he simply chooses what he/she believes.

You do not choose your beliefs, that is not possible.

You believe things for good or bad reasons, because you are convinced to some level that they are true.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24790 on: December 15, 2017, 10:37:13 AM »
Your detailed explanation fits well with observed animal behaviour, but it falls far short of explaining how humans work.  You seem to be convinced that all our responses occur sub consciously before we become aware of them, yet your well thought out replies to my posts offer overwhelming evidence that you are able to consciously manipulate and control your response.  How can you possibly be convinced that all your detailed replies get formulated in your sub conscious without any conscious interaction?  I consciously interact with this world - it is what I do at the most fundamental level of reality.  It is what we all do.  It is what God intended us to do.  Our ability to consciously interact is no accident, and it certainly cannot be defined solely by the material reactions in our brain.

Humans are an animal species.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24791 on: December 15, 2017, 10:38:25 AM »
Let me see... How daft was Jesus Christ in that his belief in Gods word and his claim to come from God made him capable of all the miracles he performed. Faith dead without actions?

You surely cannot think you actually had an argument there in the greater scheme of things relating to both God and Jesus Christ in the bible?

I think your mind is closed.

It is you who has the closed mind if you don't question the less than credible things in that not so good book. ::)

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24792 on: December 15, 2017, 10:39:20 AM »
I believe all things in life physical and spiritual affect the human being.
But not one human being outside God can really explain why they exist at all.

Whatever man believes, he simply chooses what he/she believes.

As you do.

Sassy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24793 on: December 15, 2017, 10:46:05 AM »
You do not choose your beliefs, that is not possible.

You believe things for good or bad reasons, because you are convinced to some level that they are true.

I don't agree... The disciples all chose to believe Christ.  That was not for good or bad reasons but because they had a love of truth. What you believe about Christ says more about the person as an individual than Jesus Christ himself.

Christ never lied or hurt another person. He did not gain any personally credit for the miracles he performed because he gave all the glory to God. Human being who seek greatness for themselves would not do that. Jesus told us God existed he practically made his presence known to us. If a man possessed that power of himself, why would he claim God sent him?

Our hearts and perception decide what we choose. Christ has nothing which would make us unbelievers.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24794 on: December 15, 2017, 10:47:03 AM »
Humans are an animal species.

You mean like a dog or pig? You want to marry an animal and have sex with them?
Thought not... seems you don't believe your really an animal at all.
 :o
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24795 on: December 15, 2017, 10:48:13 AM »
It is you who has the closed mind if you don't question the less than credible things in that not so good book. ::)

You want to try reading it, before telling others what to think or do.
If you read it, you might not make stupid statements in relation to things you know nothing about.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24796 on: December 15, 2017, 10:50:08 AM »
As you do.

I did choose to believe because I have a love of Truth and truth is more important than having no clue, as you do.
Had you read the book and actually wanted to know the truth, you would have made your choice on fact not your own chosen beliefs. Your heart is hard and you made it that way. Always blaming someone else, never taking the blame.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24797 on: December 15, 2017, 10:52:55 AM »
You mean like a dog or pig? You want to marry an animal and have sex with them?
Thought not... seems you don't believe your really an animal at all.
 :o
Dogs and pigs are animals. Do they have sex with each other?
Thought not...seems you don't really think before you post!
 ::)
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24798 on: December 15, 2017, 10:53:55 AM »
I don't agree... The disciples all chose to believe Christ.  That was not for good or bad reasons but because they had a love of truth. What you believe about Christ says more about the person as an individual than Jesus Christ himself.

Christ never lied or hurt another person. He did not gain any personally credit for the miracles he performed because he gave all the glory to God. Human being who seek greatness for themselves would not do that. Jesus told us God existed he practically made his presence known to us. If a man possessed that power of himself, why would he claim God sent him?

Our hearts and perception decide what we choose. Christ has nothing which would make us unbelievers.

Can you choose to believe that London is in Germany?

Can you choose to believe that Jesus is not real?
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #24799 on: December 15, 2017, 10:56:28 AM »
You mean like a dog or pig? You want to marry an animal and have sex with them?
Thought not... seems you don't believe your really an animal at all.
 :o

Humans are classified as animals Sassy. We are a different species than other animals but still animals.