Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 1519529 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32650 on: November 08, 2018, 04:48:33 PM »
Jeremy,

I admire you for schooling him but I’m sure you know by now his standard MO:

1. Post some (often vulgar) idiocies, and wait for someone to bite;

2. When they do, only ever reply with misrepresentations, distractions, terms that have been corrupted to mean whatever he wants them to mean, references to writers he hasn’t read and certainly doesn’t understand etc; and

3. If ever the attention he’s being paid stops, go back to Step 1.   

It’s up to you though. You have been warned!
“One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion. So now people assume that religion and morality have a necessary connection. But the basis of morality is really very simple and doesn't require religion at all.”

Arthur C. Clarke

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32651 on: November 08, 2018, 04:57:57 PM »
Nothing can be in control unless it can make choices and it's the choice making process that you keep ignoring - it's like the question is invisible to you. It really is as if you can't understand the subject matter of the discussion. You keep going on about what makes the choice rather than how the choice is made.

There must be some decision making process that operates within "conscious will" and that process must either produce choices that are entirely due to the antecedents or not, and if not, to that extent they must be due to nothing (random).
If you presume that making a conscious choice is a process, you are effectively equating it with the predetermined logical processing found within a computer program.

But the reality I perceive is that a conscious choice is a deliberately invoked action made from within our human conscious awareness.  We are consciously aware of what we are about to do before we consciously invoke it - it is not an automated process.
Quote
Jaw-dropping double standards again. All we are assuming here is that "conscious awareness" is logically self-consistent.
You can't presume anything about the properties of conscious awareness until you know what it comprises and how it works.
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Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32652 on: November 08, 2018, 05:11:00 PM »
You can't presume anything about the properties of conscious awareness until you know what it comprises and how it works.

Does this advice apply to 'souls' too?

I'm still waiting for you to explain how the cross-dimensional action you ascribed to 'souls' works.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32653 on: November 08, 2018, 05:18:57 PM »
AB,

Quote
But the reality I perceive...

Just read those words again.

And again.

And on more time for luck.

Go them? Good. Now then: what logical path do you think there to be from experiences that you perceive to the explanations for those experiences?

Go on, you can say it. It's ok. There isn't one is there? Worse, you already know that lots of things you think your perception superficially explains turn out to have different explanations entirely - that is, you know already that your "perception" is a very unreliable way to identify explanations.

Why on earth then would you ever think that your perception of decision-making (ie, that there's a separate "you" somehow floating free of evidence and logic that has autonomous agency) gives you a good explanation for it?

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You can't presume anything about the properties of conscious awareness until you know what it comprises and how it works.


Leaving aside the obvious mistake there (you can often deduce a great deal from the data you do have, even when it's incomplete) why then does this objection not apply to a "soul" about which you have no information at all concerning what it comprises, it's definition, how you'd identify it, how it would function etc? None. Zip. Nothing.

All you have in fact is the word "soul", so why the double standard?     
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 05:29:45 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
“One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion. So now people assume that religion and morality have a necessary connection. But the basis of morality is really very simple and doesn't require religion at all.”

Arthur C. Clarke

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32654 on: November 08, 2018, 05:30:08 PM »
If you presume that making a conscious choice is a process, you are effectively equating it with the predetermined logical processing found within a computer program.

Of course it's a process, Alan: you start off facing a choice and at the end you've made a choice; in between, you go through a process of making the choice.

I'm not equating it to anything but something that must be logically self-consistent.

At each and every stage of the choice making process the outcome must either be wholly because of its antecedents or not (there isn't a third option - the statement "wholly because of its antecedents" must be true or false), and no amount of endless waffle about how conscious, deliberate, and invoked it is (it really doesn't matter), can change that.

It really is simple.

But the reality I perceive is that a conscious choice is a deliberately invoked action made from within our human conscious awareness.  We are consciously aware of what we are about to do before we consciously invoke it - it is not an automated process.

See the comment about endless waffle, above.

You can't presume anything about the properties of conscious awareness until you know what it comprises and how it works.

Firstly, then until you can tell me "what it comprises and how it works", you can't presume that it can't be physical.

Secondly, as I've said before (What in this hasn't been said before? If only you could pay attention!): if you say we can't assume logical self-consistency, then any claim that you have logic on your side is automatically nullified - you can't make a logical argument for an illogical entity.

Think about the time rewind thought experiment. Would or could you make a different choice? That's a simple yes/no question...
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SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32655 on: November 08, 2018, 05:45:07 PM »
bluehillside

I was going to write to AB: I don't think you'd know reality if it came up and hit you,' but I shook my head sadly, and deleted it!
I urge AB to read and understand the better replies, but there's little hope of that, I suppose
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enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32656 on: November 08, 2018, 06:12:06 PM »
How is this any different from a diagnostic  of a malfunctioning computer.

You asked for SI Units in response to the claim that consciousness is physical. I suggested the Glasgow coma scale as one form of measurement. Do with it what you want. End of.  ;D
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32657 on: November 08, 2018, 06:21:15 PM »
AB,

Just read those words again.

And again.

And on more time for luck.

Go them? Good. Now then: what logical path do you think there to be from experiences that you perceive to the explanations for those experiences?

Go on, you can say it. It's ok. There isn't one is there? Worse, you already know that lots of things you think your perception superficially explains turn out to have different explanations entirely - that is, you know already that your "perception" is a very unreliable way to identify explanations.

Why on earth then would you ever think that your perception of decision-making (ie, that there's a separate "you" somehow floating free of evidence and logic that has autonomous agency) gives you a good explanation for it?
 

Leaving aside the obvious mistake there (you can often deduce a great deal from the data you do have, even when it's incomplete) why then does this objection not apply to a "soul" about which you have no information at all concerning what it comprises, it's definition, how you'd identify it, how it would function etc? None. Zip. Nothing.

All you have in fact is the word "soul", so why the double standard?     
But the alternative logic you propose would deny you the freedom with which you personally attempt to justify this misconceived logic.  Can you not see the obvious truth that you are in control of the words you choose to write?  No predetermined process could possibly generate your posts.  This is not just personal incredulity, it is a logical conclusion based upon the practical limitations of what can be achieved by physically predetermined reactions in your brain cells.  Your freedom to compose is not just a perceived freedom - it is an obvious freedom.  A freedom emanating from the amazing gift of the human soul, which is not of this world, and not constrained by its rules.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 06:28:15 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32658 on: November 08, 2018, 06:24:46 PM »
But the alternative logic you propose would deny you the freedom with which you personally attempt to justify this misconceived logic.  Can you not see the obvious truth that you are in control of the words you choose to write?  No predefined process could possibly generate your posts.  This is not just personal incredulity, it is a logical conclusion based upon the practical limitations of what can be achieved by physically predetermined reactions in your brain cells.  Your freedom to compose is not just a perceived freedom - it is an obvious freedom.  A freedom emanating from the amazing gift of the human soul, which is not of this world, and not constrained by its rules.

No, Alan, it's your incredulity (plus some other fallacies for good measure): I suspect you have portions of 'incredulity flakes' for breakfast.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32659 on: November 08, 2018, 06:41:40 PM »
Are you actually serious, Alan?

But the alternative logic you propose would deny you the freedom with which you personally attempt to justify this misconceived logic.

Blatant falsehood.

Can you not see the obvious truth that you are in control of the words you choose to write?

Misrepresentation - nobody has claimed otherwise.

No predetermined process could possibly generate your posts.

Baseless assertion.

This is not just personal incredulity, it is a logical conclusion based upon the practical limitations of what can be achieved by physically predetermined reactions in your brain cells.

Another flat falsehood. You have presented no logic whatsoever to support this silly assertion. It's even a contradiction of what you posted in #32651: "You can't presume anything about the properties of conscious awareness until you know what it comprises and how it works."

Your freedom to compose is not just a perceived freedom - it is an obvious freedom.

More misrepresentation: nobody has denied our freedom compose posts. It is dishonest to pretend that our experience of said freedom is the same as your self-contradictory, impossible "explanation" for it.

A freedom emanating from the amazing gift of the human soul, which is not of this world, and not constrained by its rules.

Baseless assertion.
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Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32660 on: November 08, 2018, 06:55:48 PM »
I'll tell you this, Alan: I only know a couple of Christians personally (there aren't that many around these days) and they are far more nuanced than you seem to be, and as such they don't paint themselves into corners and on a personal basis they seem able to reconcile their faith with ever-increasing knowledge.

You, on the other hand, are playing in the same playground as some creationists by demonstrating that Christianity, when taken literally and presented as some kind of challenge of rationality, logic and knowledge, can be viewed as a steaming pile of rancid piss!

I'd say your attempt at spreading the 'good news' isn't going well. 
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 06:58:33 PM by Gordon »

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32661 on: November 08, 2018, 07:10:10 PM »
"A freedom which is not of this world, and not constrained by its rules."  Masturbatory nonsense.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32662 on: November 08, 2018, 08:06:14 PM »
AB,

I really don’t know what the hell is wrong with you. I can only assume that any critical faculties you may once have had have been so wrecked by your faith beliefs that you just cannot ever actually engage with the words that are being said to you.

Recently you attempted one of your favourite mistakes of trying to rebut an explanation for something with, “but the reality I perceive...”.

I then took the time to explain why your perception of something is worthless for the purpose of identifying reliably an explanation for it (because there’s no logical path between them).

Someone possessed of even a smidgin of intellectual honesty would then have replied in one of two ways:

- either, “Ah OK – I get it now. Thank you. I know now never to make that mistake again”; or

- “Ah, but I have an argument that demonstrates that there is a reliable logical path from the perception of an experience to the explanation for it, and here it is…”.

What did you do though? That’s right – as ever you just ignored it as if nothing had been said, thereby no doubt in your head freeing yourself to commit exactly the same mistake at some point in the future.

What does this behaviour say about you do you think?
 
Quote
But the alternative logic you propose would deny you the freedom with which you personally attempt to justify this misconceived logic.

No it wouldn’t for the reason that has been explained to you perhaps 100 times and that you have consistently ignored in order to return to the same basic mistake like a dog returning to its vomit. 

What does this behaviour say about you do you think?

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Can you not see…

So far the thing we’re supposed to “see” when you’ve used these words has turned out to be flat wrong. Do you thing perhaps that you will break your dismal record next?

Quote
…the obvious truth…

Oh dear – your “obvious truths” almost always turn out to be anything but, but ok…

Quote
…that you are in control of the words you choose to write?

Yes I know “I” am, and provided you don’t overreach into asserting thereby that this “you” must therefore be magic rather than functioning only as if it had ultimate agency and according to basic rules of logic that’s fine. You’re not going to do that again are you? Are you?   

Quote
No predetermined process could possibly generate your posts.

And you think that remarkable, irrational and entirely un-argued assertion to be correct why exactly?

Oh look at me now – actually asking you a question as if there was any prospect at all of you ever answering it. What am I like eh?

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This is not just personal incredulity,…

It’s precisely personal incredulity, dressed as the Easter Bunny, wearing a top hat and banging a cymbal. In fact that’s all it is.

Quote
…it is a logical conclusion based upon the practical limitations of what can be achieved by physically predetermined reactions in your brain cells.

Groan – if you seriously think you have a “logical conclusion” then why not FINALLY tell us what that logic might actually be? So far all you’ve ever managed is mindless assertions and some exceptionally bad reasoning. Seriously, you cannot just claim to have logic on your side when all you ever eructate here is illogic.
   
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Your freedom to compose is not just a perceived freedom - it is an obvious freedom.

Of course it must be when your concept of freedom (neither deterministic nor random) is impossible. It’s not difficult.

Quote
A freedom emanating from the amazing gift of the human soul, which is not of this world, and not constrained by its rules.

And some brain dead gibberish to finish. As you just ignored it before (now there's a surprise), how do you expect to know anything about a supposed “soul” when you have zero data of any kind about this soul? Why not finally man up, put your big boy pants on and have a dishonesty break just for five minutes so you could at least try to answer that?

Seriously – what not at least give it a go? What are you so terrified of that even a tiny bit of intellectual honesty would risk it happening?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 08:27:43 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
“One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion. So now people assume that religion and morality have a necessary connection. But the basis of morality is really very simple and doesn't require religion at all.”

Arthur C. Clarke

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32663 on: November 08, 2018, 10:54:52 PM »
I'll tell you this, Alan: I only know a couple of Christians personally (there aren't that many around these days) and they are far more nuanced than you seem to be, and as such they don't paint themselves into corners and on a personal basis they seem able to reconcile their faith with ever-increasing knowledge.

You, on the other hand, are playing in the same playground as some creationists by demonstrating that Christianity, when taken literally and presented as some kind of challenge of rationality, logic and knowledge, can be viewed as a steaming pile of rancid piss!

I'd say your attempt at spreading the 'good news' isn't going well.
I am sorry that you seem to have a very limited view of Christians and what they believe.

I witness to these fundamental beliefs which are common to every one of the hundreds of Christians I have met and conversed with:

The existence of the human soul and its immortality.
Human freewill.
God as a creator of all that exists.

I endeavour to show how these beliefs fit in with current human knowledge and do not contradict it.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32664 on: November 08, 2018, 11:17:41 PM »
Blue,
Perhaps I should feel flattered that you have once more taken the time to try to pull apart and refute all the points I make, but in this very detailed response you offer yet more evidence for your substantial abilities to freely think up ways to point out where I am apparently going wrong.

And it is all explained by this quote from your post:

functioning only as if it had ultimate agency

Here once more we have this wonder word "agency" which is used to apparently explain all we need to know about how our material brains can perceive and consciously interact whilst being driven by nothing but predefined reactions to past events.

Thanks, but I will continue to stick with "soul" to  define what I am.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32665 on: November 09, 2018, 07:01:07 AM »
Blue,
Perhaps I should feel flattered that you have once more taken the time to try to pull apart and refute all the points I make, but in this very detailed response you offer yet more evidence for your substantial abilities to freely think up ways to point out where I am apparently going wrong.

And it is all explained by this quote from your post:

functioning only as if it had ultimate agency

Here once more we have this wonder word "agency" which is used to apparently explain all we need to know about how our material brains can perceive and consciously interact whilst being driven by nothing but predefined reactions to past events.

Thanks, but I will continue to stick with "soul" to  define what I am.

Well you ought to be able to demonstrate some evidence for 'souls' in that case.  But you don't have any, and all the research done in the life sciences over recent centuries has also failed to discover any such thing, and this is not surprising to my mind at all as the notion is inherently irrational, as many have been at pains to point out.  You are just being a partisan for your belief system, when you could be so much more,  an honest person, willing to engage with and learn from new findings.

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32666 on: November 09, 2018, 07:06:17 AM »
I'd say your attempt at spreading the 'good news' isn't going well.

In the same way that the loud-voiced, megaphone-assisted (well,  microphone nowadays)  bloke who appears in the stree here occasionally just rants on without apparently noticing that no-one is stopping to listen. On the contrary they wince as they walk out of earshot!
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Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32667 on: November 09, 2018, 07:33:47 AM »
I am sorry that you seem to have a very limited view of Christians and what they believe.

In part, Alan, that at base I find Christianity to be codified nonsense is down to people such as yourself.

Quote
I witness to these fundamental beliefs which are common to every one of the hundreds of Christians I have met and conversed with:

The existence of the human soul and its immortality.
Human freewill.
God as a creator of all that exists.

Leaving aside these three vacuous claims, and the ad populum, 'witness' is yet another one of these religious terms designed to make your belief seem profound: all you are really 'witness' to is that there are those who think as you do, but even then there are variations among Christians so there is no steady-state of Christian thought to be 'witnessed': the term just provides a warm and cosy feeling to those who like that sort of thing.

Quote
I endeavour to show how these beliefs fit in with current human knowledge and do not contradict it.

In that endeavour you have failed.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32668 on: November 09, 2018, 07:54:26 AM »
Perhaps I should feel flattered that you have once more taken the time to try to pull apart and refute all the points I make, but in this very detailed response you offer yet more evidence for your substantial abilities to freely think up ways to point out where I am apparently going wrong.

As has been pointed out before, pretending that our abilities and experience support only your own view about how they are explained, is basically a lie, and I note once again that you have not engaged with any of the arguments presented that show that your view is impossible.

I endeavour to show how these beliefs fit in with current human knowledge and do not contradict it.

This is a joke, right? You run away from actually engaging with any of the arguments against you, you totally ignore counterarguments to your own, you endlessly repeat 'points' that have been answered many, many times, you misrepresent other people's positions, you use transparent evasion tactics, and you dishonesty try to claim our abilities and experience as evidence for your "explanation" for them.

You really aren't promoting this view at all - quite the opposite. You give the impression that your beliefs have left you in a position where you are unable or unwilling to honestly engage in debate about how they fit with current knowledge (and logic).
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32669 on: November 09, 2018, 10:29:09 AM »
"A freedom which is not of this world, and not constrained by its rules."  Masturbatory nonsense.
Was this a deliberate misquote?
original:
A freedom emanating from the amazing gift of the human soul, which is not of this world, and not constrained by its rules.
I implied that it is the soul which is not of this world
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32670 on: November 09, 2018, 10:47:18 AM »
Well you ought to be able to demonstrate some evidence for 'souls' in that case.  But you don't have any, and all the research done in the life sciences over recent centuries has also failed to discover any such thing, and this is not surprising to my mind at all as the notion is inherently irrational, as many have been at pains to point out.  You are just being a partisan for your belief system, when you could be so much more,  an honest person, willing to engage with and learn from new findings.
For those who truly wish to discover the truth about their existence, there is abundant evidence for God and for our own spiritual nature.  But for those who not wish to seek God, our God given freedom to drive our own thought processes will enable them to think of reasons to dismiss or ignore or even ridicule this evidence.  If you wish to seek the truth, you will not discover it in the minutia of human scientific investigation - you would be looking in the wrong place.  I am reminded once more of an essay by CS Lewis entitled "Fern seed and elephants", in which Lewis illustrates the futility of explorers who are so intent on examining the seed beneath the ferns that they do not see the elephant in front of them.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32671 on: November 09, 2018, 10:51:07 AM »
For those who truly wish to discover the truth about their existence, there is abundant evidence for God and for our own spiritual nature.

You will have no trouble pointing it out then....

[Not holding breath.]
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SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32672 on: November 09, 2018, 11:35:01 AM »
For those who truly wish to discover the truth about their existence, there is abundant evidence for God and for our own spiritual nature.  But for those who not wish to seek God, our God given freedom to drive our own thought processes will enable them to think of reasons to dismiss or ignore or even ridicule this evidence.  If you wish to seek the truth, you will not discover it in the minutia of human scientific investigation - you would be looking in the wrong place.  I am reminded once more of an essay by CS Lewis entitled "Fern seed and elephants", in which Lewis illustrates the futility of explorers who are so intent on examining the seed beneath the ferns that they do not see the elephant in front of them.
The more I see of your posts, the more I wonder how you can bear to write them, so much are they like wading through syrup, while being surrounded by saccharine sweetness and candyfloss. and then being surrounded by a fluffy cloud, probably pink.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32673 on: November 09, 2018, 12:16:49 PM »
You will have no trouble pointing it out then....

[Not holding breath.]
I have been doing this for the last three years, but as I indicated in my post, the abundant evidence has been deliberately dismissed, ignored or ridiculed by those who appear not to wish to find God, but instead seek to find reasons not to believe in Him.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32

wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #32674 on: November 09, 2018, 12:20:34 PM »
Abundant evidence?  Children raped by Catholic priests, well, God told the priests not to kill them.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!