Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 1917451 times)

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36425 on: September 13, 2019, 12:51:15 PM »
I reached the conclusion many years ago that our conscious freedom can't be derived from endless mechanistic chains of cause and effect.  I could have held up my hands and declared that it is just an illusion, but I have moved on to discover the hidden depth and power of the human soul

You can't reach this conclusion without knowing the true nature and capabilities of human conscious awareness.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36426 on: September 13, 2019, 03:32:28 PM »
As has been said many times, it might make sense to you but you have never ever provided any evidence, which backs up your POV.
But the evidence is blindingly obvious to anyone who realises the reality that they have demonstrable conscious control of their own thoughts.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free Will is the highest truth about humanity - GK Chesterton

Littleroses

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36427 on: September 13, 2019, 03:44:23 PM »
But the evidence is blindingly obvious to anyone who realises the reality that they have demonstrable conscious control of their own thoughts.

That isn't true! I wish I had conscious control of my thoughts!
'Don't do anything I would do'. RJG

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36428 on: September 13, 2019, 03:59:05 PM »
But the evidence is blindingly obvious to anyone who realises the reality that they have demonstrable conscious control of their own thoughts.

This is an utterly absurd assertion.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36429 on: September 13, 2019, 04:27:01 PM »
That isn't true! I wish I had conscious control of my thoughts!
You obviously thought about your reply.

Did you consciously choose to write it?

Have you no conscious control over your creative art work?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free Will is the highest truth about humanity - GK Chesterton

Littleroses

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36430 on: September 13, 2019, 04:31:30 PM »
You obviously thought about your reply.

Did you consciously choose to write it?

Have you no conscious control over your creative art work?

Unwanted thoughts crowd into my head over which I have no control, I wish I did.

As for my artwork, I don't plan it, when the vibes are right I just go with the flow.
'Don't do anything I would do'. RJG

Walter

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36431 on: September 13, 2019, 04:36:17 PM »
Unwanted thoughts crowd into my head over which I have no control, I wish I did.

As for my artwork, I don't plan it, when the vibes are right I just go with the flow.
LR
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Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36432 on: September 13, 2019, 04:37:42 PM »
But the evidence is blindingly obvious to anyone who realises the reality that they have demonstrable conscious control of their own thoughts.

Just like the evidence is blindly obvious that apples are attracted to the Earth, and hence they fall?  Just the like the evidence is blindly obvious that table-tops are solid material?  Just like the evidence is blindly obvious that whales and dolphins are closer kin to fish than they are to humans?

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36433 on: September 13, 2019, 05:11:57 PM »
Just like the evidence is blindly obvious that apples are attracted to the Earth, and hence they fall?  Just the like the evidence is blindly obvious that table-tops are solid material?  Just like the evidence is blindly obvious that whales and dolphins are closer kin to fish than they are to humans?

O.
All of which just convinces me further that you have conscious control over what you choose to write.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free Will is the highest truth about humanity - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36434 on: September 13, 2019, 05:16:59 PM »
All of which just convinces me further that you have conscious control over what you choose to write.

Since you are convinced there is 'God' I think we can regard any of your related convictions as being equally suspect.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36435 on: September 13, 2019, 05:30:00 PM »
All of which just convinces me further that you have conscious control over what you choose to write.

Surely everybody with any inclination at all to read this must know by now that you're daft enough to think that everything anybody posts supports your inane assertions - and be fully conversant with all the reasons people dismiss it. Why do you think endlessly repeating it will achieve anything?
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Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36436 on: September 13, 2019, 05:56:21 PM »
But the evidence is blindingly obvious to anyone who realises the reality that they have demonstrable conscious control of their own thoughts.

To anyone who thinks about it it is blindingly obvious we can do no.such thing. I have just tried it. I thought about Brexit three times and each time I came to the same conclusion. Which is exactly what you would expect for a mind operating on a deterministic basis. If your idea had legs I could have reached a different conclusion at any time.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36437 on: September 13, 2019, 07:24:52 PM »
To anyone who thinks about it it is blindingly obvious we can do no.such thing. I have just tried it. I thought about Brexit three times and each time I came to the same conclusion. Which is exactly what you would expect for a mind operating on a deterministic basis. If your idea had legs I could have reached a different conclusion at any time.
But you consciously chose to think about Brexit.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free Will is the highest truth about humanity - GK Chesterton

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36438 on: September 13, 2019, 07:34:12 PM »
But you consciously chose to think about Brexit.

You know this how?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36439 on: September 13, 2019, 07:36:15 PM »
Surely everybody with any inclination at all to read this must know by now that you're daft enough to think that everything anybody posts supports your inane assertions - and be fully conversant with all the reasons people dismiss it. Why do you think endlessly repeating it will achieve anything?
I consciously choose to continue to witness to the reality oh human free will.
I could not do this if I did not have the gift of free will.
The alternative offered by your short sighted logic would mean that I have no conscious freedom to choose to repeat what I sincerely believe to be true.  And the fact that I am able to choose to repeat this is evidence to the reality of human free will.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 07:38:42 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free Will is the highest truth about humanity - GK Chesterton

jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36440 on: September 13, 2019, 07:40:35 PM »
But can you not see that your ability to make such deductions can only be made if you have consciously driven control over the processes leading to the deduction.  It is impossible in an entirely materialistic scenario for such consciously driven control to exist for the reasons you have already given.  Which is evidence that this control can only be achieved by means outside the capability of physical material reactions alone.

Actually deduction is fairly easy to program in a computer.

Deduction requires you to follow strict logical rules to get from the premises to a conclusion. Provided you can encode the premises in a suitable way, it's pretty easy (relatively) to write a program that will churn out deductions from those premises. For example, in GEB, Hofstadter describes a computer program that could churn out geometrical theorems given Euclid's postulates. In one case, it even discovered a novel proof of a theorem.

 Deduction doesn't require any consciousness or free will.
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36441 on: September 13, 2019, 07:46:15 PM »
I consciously choose to continue to witness to the reality oh human free will.
I could not do this if I did not have the gift of free will.
The alternative offered by your short sighted logic would mean that I have no conscious freedom to choose to repeat what I sincerely believe to be true.  And the fact that I am able to choose to repeat this is evidence to the reality of human free will.

That you choose to repeat is evidence of you doing what you want; you are merely exercising your will.  We all enjoy the exercise of our will, what you haven't demonstrated that your will is free.  How is it free ?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36442 on: September 13, 2019, 09:05:06 PM »
Actually deduction is fairly easy to program in a computer.

Deduction requires you to follow strict logical rules to get from the premises to a conclusion. Provided you can encode the premises in a suitable way, it's pretty easy (relatively) to write a program that will churn out deductions from those premises. For example, in GEB, Hofstadter describes a computer program that could churn out geometrical theorems given Euclid's postulates. In one case, it even discovered a novel proof of a theorem.

 Deduction doesn't require any consciousness or free will.

Of course it does.  Could such deduction be programmed without the human free will of the programmer?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free Will is the highest truth about humanity - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36443 on: September 13, 2019, 09:06:42 PM »
That you choose to repeat is evidence of you doing what you want; you are merely exercising your will.  We all enjoy the exercise of our will, what you haven't demonstrated that your will is free.  How is it free ?
I an exercising my freedom to choose.
I am not a pre programmed robot
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free Will is the highest truth about humanity - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36444 on: September 14, 2019, 07:42:05 AM »
I an exercising my freedom to choose.
I am not a pre programmed robot

Your usual tactic, there, just side step engaging the actual question and throw in a little prejudicial language for good measure. 

That we act on what we want is entirely consistent with a deterministic account of mind.  To demonstrate free will, you need to demonstrate freedom from that.  Show, for example, that if you could rewind time, how you could have chosen differently for no determining reason without the result being random by definition.  See, as Stranger keeps pointing out, your problem is nothing to do with 'physical' or 'material', it is to do with logic.  The claim of free will is inherently self-contradictory.

Littleroses

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36445 on: September 14, 2019, 08:31:35 AM »
I an exercising my freedom to choose.
I am not a pre programmed robot

Are you sure of that, or is it possible your religion has pre programmed you to think as you do?
'Don't do anything I would do'. RJG

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36446 on: September 14, 2019, 08:44:49 AM »
I consciously choose to continue to witness to the reality oh human free will.

All you are witnessing to is your own inability to think logically and to address the issues honestly.

I could not do this if I did not have the gift of free will.

Nobody disputes your ability to do as you wish. Your ability to post is not anything more than that. The continued repetition of this sort of thing is a misrepresentation.

The alternative offered by your short sighted logic would mean that I have no conscious freedom to choose to repeat what I sincerely believe to be true.

The logic says nothing of the sort. More misrepresentation.

And the fact that I am able to choose to repeat this is evidence to the reality of human free will.

This is simply untrue.

You've dishonestly constructed a straw man and ritually slaughtered it. How about tackling the real logic, just for a change?
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36447 on: September 15, 2019, 01:19:46 PM »
I an exercising my freedom to choose.
I am not a pre programmed robot

...posted exactly as would be expected by a biological brain working on deterministic principles.
No soul required.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36448 on: September 15, 2019, 05:32:53 PM »
I an exercising my freedom to choose.
I am not a pre programmed robot

I'm going to give away my free will, wait a minute it's something where I haven't got any other choice, now how do I get out of this; Alannnnn!!!

Commiserations to you Alan, ippy

jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #36449 on: September 15, 2019, 08:10:16 PM »

Of course it does.
No it doesn't. Computer programs can do it.

 
Quote
Could such deduction be programmed without the human free will of the programmer?
Well humans can deduce things so the answer is clearly yes.
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