Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 2038416 times)

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37775 on: December 01, 2019, 06:58:21 PM »
All the examples you quote here relate to how our conscious awareness interprets external data perceived through our sensory organs, and I agree that what we perceive about the external world can appear to be somewhat different to the reality.  But our conscious control is an integral part of our conscious awareness.  The reality of our freedom to choose and direct our thoughts does not get changed or misinterpreted by our conscious awareness.  We think of something.  We choose how, when and where to do it.  And we can verify that it has been done.  There is no illusion in this.  You can't compare it to our illusionary perception of the external world.  Our freedom to choose what to think, act and speak is at the root of the reality of our existence - it defines each one of us as a separate entity in a physically predetermined material universe.

So, perception is all construction of mind, but then what is to say that other mental phenomena are not subject to, or the outcome of, such subliminal mental processes.  It all comes down to neural network processes.  There is no reason to imagine that 'conscious thoughts' are not similarly derived.  They are, by definition, also part of your conscious experience and so must be part and parcel of the neurological processes that go into constructing our awareness in the moment.  If that were not the case, then there would be a disjoint between perception and volition arising from within as a consequence of perception.  These things cannot be disjoined, everything is connected.  Perceptions lead to response, all as part of the same neurological information flow.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 07:06:34 PM by torridon »

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37776 on: December 01, 2019, 07:02:12 PM »
Alan:- And there are some who have discovered the truth in Christianity, but still choose to reject it.  I have come across a definition of a sinner as one who loves evil rather than good.


No, a sinner is a person like any of us, a person with flaws, weaknesses. People who are overall quite good can do bad things and overall bad people can do good things at times. Nobody loves evil but we can like & be attracted to things that are not good, we all can. We're human. Not one of us is perfect.
I entirely agree that none of us are perfect and we are all guilty of giving way to many of the temptations in this world.  But the point I wanted to emphasise is the most dangerous type of sinner who feels no regret about doing things which are intrinsically evil, and the most blatant example of this would be a person who knows God is real, yet still refuses to follow Him.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free Will is the highest truth about humanity - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37777 on: December 01, 2019, 07:23:56 PM »
I entirely agree that none of us are perfect and we are all guilty of giving way to many of the temptations in this world.  But the point I wanted to emphasise is the most dangerous type of sinner who feels no regret about doing things which are intrinsically evil, and the most blatant example of this would be a person who knows God is real, yet still refuses to follow Him.

You do love your hyperbole, Alan: if there were such a person, which I doubt since that position seems incoherent, then they'd be misguided rather than dangerous.

Methinks you take the 'God' idea far too seriously.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37778 on: December 01, 2019, 08:24:07 PM »
I entirely agree that none of us are perfect and we are all guilty of giving way to many of the temptations in this world.  But the point I wanted to emphasise is the most dangerous type of sinner who feels no regret about doing things which are intrinsically evil, and the most blatant example of this would be a person who knows God is real, yet still refuses to follow Him.

That doesn't follow.   Someone might come to believe that God is real but is evil and should not be followed, on principle.

See LittleRoses for details.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37779 on: December 02, 2019, 09:47:59 AM »
AB,

Quote
...But the point I wanted to emphasise is the most dangerous type of sinner who feels no regret about doing things which are intrinsically evil, and the most blatant example of this would be a person who knows God is real, yet still refuses to follow Him.

No-one "knows" god is real. Lots of people have beliefs that various gods are real, but the bar for justifying the claim of knowledge is higher than faith (ie, guessing) and wrong arguments. That's why your proselytising fails.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 10:16:40 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37780 on: December 02, 2019, 10:08:56 AM »
That doesn't follow.   Someone might come to believe that God is real but is evil and should not be followed, on principle.

See LittleRoses for details.
Or indeed XTC

https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/xtc/deargod.html

Littleroses

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37781 on: December 02, 2019, 10:36:20 AM »
That doesn't follow.   Someone might come to believe that God is real but is evil and should not be followed, on principle.

See LittleRoses for details.

I don't believe god is real, as it seems very much like an unpleasant storybook character, but of course I could be wrong.
“What seems like a good idea at the time, more often than not bites the dust spectacularly” RJG

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37782 on: December 02, 2019, 12:06:21 PM »
I entirely agree that none of us are perfect and we are all guilty of giving way to many of the temptations in this world.  But the point I wanted to emphasise is the most dangerous type of sinner who feels no regret about doing things which are intrinsically evil, and the most blatant example of this would be a person who knows God is real, yet still refuses to follow Him.

Such as the Catholic priests, (there's plenty of them), like Bishop Gustavo Zanchetta of Argentina another child abusing Catholic priest taking refuge from justice in the Vatican at this very moment and the various Popes that do their best to cover up these disgusting priest's behaviour?

I've very little respect for any of the mainline religions Alan but don't you think it might be about time you gave some thought to changing over to and joining the C of E they seem Jane like compared to the manipulative Catholic hierarchy running that morally bankrupt disgrace of an organisation.

Much needed commiserations to you Alan, ippy
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 03:29:42 PM by ippy »

Littleroses

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37783 on: December 02, 2019, 02:45:52 PM »
Such as the Catholic priests, (their's plenty of them), like Bishop Gustavo Zanchetta of Argentina another child abusing Catholic priest taking refuge from justice in the Vatican at this very moment and the various Popes that do their best to cover up these disgusting priest's behaviour?

I've very little respect for any of the mainline religions Alan but don't you think it might be about time you gave some thought to changing over to and joining the C of E they seem Jane like compared to the manipulative Catholic hierarchy running that morally bankrupt disgrace of an organisation.

Much needed commiserations to you Alan, ippy

The Anglican church isn't perfect and has paedophiles in its midst too, but  compared with the RCC it a far better Church with which to belong.
“What seems like a good idea at the time, more often than not bites the dust spectacularly” RJG

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37784 on: December 02, 2019, 02:58:15 PM »
The Anglican church isn't perfect and has paedophiles in its midst too, but  compared with the RCC it a far better Church with which to belong.
Do we have numbers on that, and a methodology to determine what is the 'better' church to belong to?

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37785 on: December 02, 2019, 03:08:51 PM »
The Anglican church isn't perfect and has paedophiles in its midst too, but  compared with the RCC it a far better Church with which to belong.

Yes as I said it makes the C of E look Jane like when compared to the RCC.

Regards, ippy.

Littleroses

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37786 on: December 02, 2019, 03:18:01 PM »
Yes as I said it makes the C of E look Jane like when compared to the RCC.

Regards, ippy.

I have never come across that phrase before.
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ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37787 on: December 02, 2019, 03:27:02 PM »
I have never come across that phrase before.

Janes only drink their water after they've filtered it through a rag just in case they inadvertently kill a bug that might have been in the water, it's about the most passive form of religion I've heard of.

Regards, ippy.


Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37788 on: December 02, 2019, 03:35:53 PM »
I have never come across that phrase before.



I think ippy's admitted spelling issue might be confusing us

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37789 on: December 02, 2019, 03:41:37 PM »
“conscious awareness” cannot mean what you think it means.

 Consciousness is a phenomenon that arises from the integrated function of multiple neural processes.

And what comprises neural processes?
In essence they are just movement of electrons.
There is no hint of explanation as to how such activity generates the entity of awareness which comprises you and me.  The use of such labels as "agency" does not come close to explaining the existence of conscious awareness.  And the concept of "information flow" is also meaningless as an explanation, because information only exists as an interpretation within the conscious perception of the human mind.  Outside our conscious awareness, information does not exist. Also your favorite term "emergent property" is just another human label which means nothing outside human conscious awareness.  In essence, you fail to appreciate the impossibility of material reactions alone being able to generate a single entity of perception.  No matter how complex the neural network is in terms of physical pathways for the electrons to travel - the end result can be nothing more that another physical reaction.  Conscious perception is not physical reaction - it is awareness of physical reactions.  Can you not see the impossibility of physical reactions being able to somehow perceive other physical reactions?  In the material scenario, all you have is endless chains of reactions which merely produce further reactions, not awareness of reactions.

I have no doubt that your own conscious awareness in combination with your freedom to think will come up with yet further attempts to explain the impossible and proclaim that everything can or will be fully defined by nothing but predetermined physical reactions of material elements.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free Will is the highest truth about humanity - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37790 on: December 02, 2019, 04:17:21 PM »
And what comprises neural processes?
In essence they are just movement of electrons.
There is no hint of explanation as to how such activity generates the entity of awareness which comprises you and me.  The use of such labels as "agency" does not come close to explaining the existence of conscious awareness.  And the concept of "information flow" is also meaningless as an explanation, because information only exists as an interpretation within the conscious perception of the human mind.  Outside our conscious awareness, information does not exist. Also your favorite term "emergent property" is just another human label which means nothing outside human conscious awareness.

Personal incredulity and shameless hypocrisy. You have nothing but self-contradictory, impossible magic to offer and yet you criticise others for accepting the evidence but not having a complete explanation.

In essence, you fail to appreciate the impossibility of material reactions alone being able to generate a single entity of perception.

Baseless assertion.

Conscious perception is not physical reaction...

Baseless assertion.

Can you not see the impossibility of physical reactions being able to somehow perceive other physical reactions?

Another baseless assertion and more hypocrisy. There is a blatant self-contradiction at the very heart of your own view, that you have never got close to actually addressing, yet you accuse others of believing something "impossible" despite the fact you have provided nothing but incredulity to back up the claim that it is impossible.

I have no doubt that your own conscious awareness in combination with your freedom to think will come up with yet further attempts to explain the impossible and proclaim that everything can or will be fully defined by nothing but predetermined physical reactions of material elements.

Once again: the logic that totally falsifies your own position has nothing at all to do with the physical world.

If you are ever to have the slightest credibility, you need to pay some actual attention to what is being said and stop misrepresenting it, and you need to address the fact that your view, as outlined here, is self-contradictory. However incredulous you are and however improbable you think a deterministic or physical explanation is, it must be better and more likely than an impossible contradiction.
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Littleroses

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37791 on: December 02, 2019, 04:29:00 PM »



I think ippy's admitted spelling issue might be confusing us

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism

Riiiiiiiiiiiight, his reply could have something to do with Jainism of which I have actually heard.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37792 on: December 02, 2019, 05:29:17 PM »
AB,

Quote
And what comprises neural processes?
In essence they are just movement of electrons.

That give rise to all sorts of complex phenomena that each of the constituent components and events do not have. This is emergence 101, and there’s no “just” about it.   

Quote
There is no hint of explanation as to how such activity generates the entity of awareness which comprises you and me.

Not true. There are lots of “hints” in the form of reason, evidence, competing hypotheses etc. Doubtless too the picture will become clearer as more discoveries are made that build on that knowledge.   

Quote
The use of such labels as "agency" does not come close to explaining the existence of conscious awareness.

It’s not intended to. “Agency” merely describes the everyday sense of dualism we all have that there’s a separate “me” somehow working the controls rather than the logic- and evidence-based conclusion that the “me” is in fact a property of an integrated whole.     

Quote
And the concept of "information flow" is also meaningless as an explanation, because information only exists as an interpretation within the conscious perception of the human mind.

Wrong again. Information flows exist whether or not we conceptualise them. The brains of caveman had information flows too, even though the concept was unknown to them. 
 
Quote
Outside our conscious awareness, information does not exist.

Did you mean to say that? How do you suppose, say, someone in a deep coma – ie, profoundly not conscious – is still able to breathe if not for information passing across the relevant synapses etc?
 
Quote
Also…

You can’t have an “also” when everything before it has just collapsed into a heap of wrongness, but ok…

Quote
…your favorite term "emergent property" is just another human label which means nothing outside human conscious awareness.

Wrong yet again. All descriptions of observed phenomena are “just” “human labels” because it’s humans who observed, described and named them. “Gravity” for example is one such, but it doesn’t “mean nothing” – ie, cease to operate – if it’s not named or observed. You’re desperately confused about this.   

Quote
In essence, you fail to appreciate the impossibility of material reactions alone being able to generate a single entity of perception.

In essence, you fail utterly to explain why you think such a thing is impossible. Rather than just repeat it as an unqualified article of faith why not finally at least try to tell us why all the reason and evidence we have already that points that way must be wrong?

Quote
No matter how complex the neural network is in terms of physical pathways for the electrons to travel - the end result can be nothing more that another physical reaction.  Conscious perception is not physical reaction - it is awareness of physical reactions.  Can you not see the impossibility of physical reactions being able to somehow perceive other physical reactions?  In the material scenario, all you have is endless chains of reactions which merely produce further reactions, not awareness of reactions.

No, I can’t “see” that because you’ve never once managed to demonstrate that it’s there to be seen. Stop asserting and start reasoning and then perhaps there’ll be something to consider at least. Until then, I’ll stick with where the logic and evidence points rather than with the mindless assertions of a superstitionist.     

Quote
I have no doubt that your own conscious awareness in combination with your freedom to think will come up with yet further attempts to explain the impossible and proclaim that everything can or will be fully defined by nothing but predetermined physical reactions of material elements.

But it’s not impossible at all – unlike by the way your fundamentally self-contradictory nonsense about a magic little man at the controls for which there’s no evidence whatsoever and that’s neither deterministic nor random in its doings. Essentially all you’ve attempted here (yet again) is one long argument from personal incredulity. You’re telling us that you don’t have either the knowledge, or the wit or the honesty to address the mountain of evidence against you, and you populate that gap in your thinking with various fantastical conjectures that utterly lack any reason, any evidence or any means of investigation.

I’ve explained this to you countless times already: fallacious arguments are always wrong arguments. Just trying them over and over again doesn’t make them less wrong, it just makes you more obtuse. If you genuinely don’t want to be thought of as the village idiot or fruit loop around here, then for your own sake if not for anyone else’s try at least to obtain even a basic grasp of how reason-based argument works so you won’t continually fall into the same rhetorical traps that falsify your efforts every time you try them.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 06:32:19 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37793 on: December 02, 2019, 07:15:29 PM »
And the concept of "information flow" is also meaningless as an explanation, because information only exists as an interpretation within the conscious perception of the human mind.  Outside our conscious awareness, information does not exist.

That's silly, you are merely using a trivial understanding of the term 'information', and this despite it having been pointed out to you many times already.  When you see something, that is an information flow - vision is possible because light carries information encoded on it about the last thing the light bounced off.  We can tell much about distant stars because spectral analysis reveals information about their chemical composition.  Bats can move around because information is encoded in their returning clicks which they can interpret.  Information flows are everywhere, they are not just in human awareness.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2019, 05:56:22 AM by torridon »

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37794 on: December 02, 2019, 07:20:29 PM »
In essence, you fail to appreciate the impossibility of material reactions alone being able to generate a single entity of perception. 

But you are clearly wrong in this in as much as we observe conscious awareness happens so it cannot be impossible.  You fail to understand the basic tenets of an enquiring mind : we observe, we try to understand the observation.  Just because the explanation is not obvious should not licence us to give up : what we do is to build theoretical models of understanding.  To give up at the first hurdle is a total fail.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 07:24:53 PM by torridon »

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37795 on: December 02, 2019, 11:35:50 PM »
And what comprises neural processes?
In essence they are just movement of electrons.
There is no hint of explanation as to how such activity generates the entity of awareness which comprises you and me.  The use of such labels as "agency" does not come close to explaining the existence of conscious awareness.  And the concept of "information flow" is also meaningless as an explanation, because information only exists as an interpretation within the conscious perception of the human mind.  Outside our conscious awareness, information does not exist. Also your favorite term "emergent property" is just another human label which means nothing outside human conscious awareness.  In essence, you fail to appreciate the impossibility of material reactions alone being able to generate a single entity of perception.  No matter how complex the neural network is in terms of physical pathways for the electrons to travel - the end result can be nothing more that another physical reaction.  Conscious perception is not physical reaction - it is awareness of physical reactions.  Can you not see the impossibility of physical reactions being able to somehow perceive other physical reactions?  In the material scenario, all you have is endless chains of reactions which merely produce further reactions, not awareness of reactions.

I have no doubt that your own conscious awareness in combination with your freedom to think will come up with yet further attempts to explain the impossible and proclaim that everything can or will be fully defined by nothing but predetermined physical reactions of material elements.
What a delightful post.
Delightful  in the sense that it perfectly conveys the result of a biological brain working entirely within deterministic principles.
No soul required.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37796 on: December 03, 2019, 10:10:38 AM »
AB,

I don't suppose you will, but have a listen to today's episode of Naturebang on Radio 4: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000610p

It touches on some of your mistakes and various academics explain where you go wrong. Here's the blurb:

"Strange things dwell out in the open ocean. Bobbing atop the waves, Becky Ripley and Emily Knight meet one such creature, the Portuguese Man O’War. With its bulbous air-sacs and trailing tentacles you’d be forgiven for thinking it’s a jellyfish, but you’d be wrong. It’s a colony, a society of tiny individual animals, who work together to eat, hunt and reproduce as one.

In the Age of the Individual, we humans like to think of ourselves as self-sufficient little nodes who don’t need nobody. But that perspective gets called into question when you consider where we live. Thanks to some complex maths and some incredible data-crunching, we’re beginning to see the cities we inhabit in a different light. They grow, move, breathe, and die, just like a living organism, according to strict mathematical principles. Just like polyps in a Man O’ War, are we really any more than cogs in a machine?

Featuring Marine Biologist Dr John Copley from the University of Southampton, and Geoffrey West, Theoretical Physicist from the Santa Fe Institute."
"To understand via the heart is not to understand."

Michel de Montaigne

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37797 on: December 03, 2019, 11:15:42 AM »
AB,

I don't suppose you will, but have a listen to today's episode of Naturebang on Radio 4: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000610p

It touches on some of your mistakes and various academics explain where you go wrong. Here's the blurb:

"Strange things dwell out in the open ocean. Bobbing atop the waves, Becky Ripley and Emily Knight meet one such creature, the Portuguese Man O’War. With its bulbous air-sacs and trailing tentacles you’d be forgiven for thinking it’s a jellyfish, but you’d be wrong. It’s a colony, a society of tiny individual animals, who work together to eat, hunt and reproduce as one.

In the Age of the Individual, we humans like to think of ourselves as self-sufficient little nodes who don’t need nobody. But that perspective gets called into question when you consider where we live. Thanks to some complex maths and some incredible data-crunching, we’re beginning to see the cities we inhabit in a different light. They grow, move, breathe, and die, just like a living organism, according to strict mathematical principles. Just like polyps in a Man O’ War, are we really any more than cogs in a machine?

Featuring Marine Biologist Dr John Copley from the University of Southampton, and Geoffrey West, Theoretical Physicist from the Santa Fe Institute."
And none of this comes near explaining to how a single entity of internal conscious awareness can emerge from discrete elements.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free Will is the highest truth about humanity - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37798 on: December 03, 2019, 11:18:37 AM »
AB,

Quote
And none of this comes near explaining to how a single entity of internal conscious awareness can emerge from discrete elements.

Yes it does.
"To understand via the heart is not to understand."

Michel de Montaigne

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #37799 on: December 03, 2019, 11:20:39 AM »
And none of this comes near explaining to how a single entity of internal conscious awareness can emerge from discrete elements.

It comes a great deal closer than your self-contradictory, baseless fantasies...
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))