Children - religion the default position ?

[OH MY WORLD!]

So Matty, I recall a certain fella a while back having some critical comments about posters changing their names. What happened to him? You have now changed your name as many times as me. It was silly for that fella to wag his finger at those that change their names wasn't it?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Prof,

Not come to believe, born believing, why are you reading into this something that is not there, I am and nor is the research talking about any divine intervention.

The mind at a early age is set up that there must be a reason for everything, bloody hell!! The tired old atheist argument about early man blaming the volcano god backs this up.

I agree with you that as the child grows it then starts to question.

The tribe I mentioned to Jack knave, untouched by civilisation, where did their idea of god come from.

Gonnagle.

[BashfulAnthony]

Your are the most pathetic of creatures whose entire world collapses if you are in any way criticised or your opinions in any way questioned and should anyone dare to have the temerity to do so, you throw insults around like the pathetic infant that you are throwing your toys out of your pram!

 

Thank you for that spot-on description of BA.

But should we not be grateful for the sanctimonious sermonising of the Tartuffe* in question? I'm sure we've all learned how to improve our moral outlook immensely from such words of wisdom as the following:

It is not only unpleasant to cast aspersions on a person's intelligence, it is also demeaning to the person who makes the allegation  -  and of course, it never occurred to you the light it casts you in:
 
demeaning:

causing someone to lose their dignity and the respect of others.

That was delivered to Shaker #216 on the "There is no health in us" thread.

I know it is difficult not to rise to the bait, but in this instance there are some words of wisdom in the Bible, especially in Proverbs chapter 26.


*He'll probably have to google that - I doubt very much whether he's read the play 

It's so flattering when people spend so much time trawling to try and score cheap points  -  shows I got to you!!     

"Tartuffe."  Trawling, and googling, eh!  You would never know that, being so ill-read!

[OH MY WORLD!]

Oh wonderful, yet another thread with the resident witch having another fit. Have a cookie matty.

[Leonard James]

The tribe I mentioned to Jack knave, untouched by civilisation, where did their idea of god come from.

Gonnagle.

Morning Gonners,

From the same place as all gods (and all fiction) come from ... the human imagination.

I suppose there is a remote possibility that some power exists that is not of our natural universe, but until we see evidence for such a thing, we should not be so daft as to pretend to know anything about it.

[ProfessorDavey]

Dear Prof,

Not come to believe, born believing, why are you reading into this something that is not there, I am and nor is the research talking about any divine intervention.

Nope - The researcher in the OP posits that children will by default come to believe in god, he does not think that a new born baby believes in god. That suggestion is absolute non-sense as a new born baby simply doesn't have the level of cognitive development to believe in anything of that nature. He or she no more believes in god than in father christmas or the tooth fairy or keynsian monetarism.

Hence he 'argues that even those raised alone on a desert island would come to believe in God'.

[floo]

The tribe I mentioned to Jack knave, untouched by civilisation, where did their idea of god come from.

Gonnagle.

Morning Gonners,

From the same place as all gods (and all fiction) come from ... the human imagination.

I suppose there is a remote possibility that some power exists that is not of our natural universe, but until we see evidence for such a thing, we should not be so daft as to pretend to know anything about it.

The human imagination is more powerful than any deity, imo!

[Harrowby Hall]

Hence he 'argues that even those raised alone on a desert island would come to believe in God'.

But those raised alone on a desert island will never have had contact with language. Children who have not been exposed to language before about 18 months of age will never develop language.

In order "to come to believe" the child will need to be able to consider, adopt and adapt abstract conceptions. Without language the ability to do this will be minimal. The child's knowledge of its environment will be limited to its innate capabilities and the learning it will accomplish in its intereactions with its environment.

There is no nature in God, only nurture.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Prof,

Believe in anything of what nature, is this atheism's problem, from a early age we are taught, big guy, long beard, wears a toga, lives in the sky, actually the OP says that the research affects our theist and atheist ways of thinking.

Gonnagle.

[ProfessorDavey]

Dear Prof,

Believe in anything of what nature, is this atheism's problem, from a early age we are taught, big guy, long beard, wears a toga, lives in the sky, actually the OP says that the research affects our theist and atheist ways of thinking.

Gonnagle.

Which rather confirms my point - that new born babies do not have the necessary cognitive development to believe in anything really, but as they grow they become influenced by their surroundings (parents, other societal and cultural influences - overt teaching, subconscious suggestion etc) and their beliefs become influenced by those environmental factors.

By the way Gonners you seem to have completely evaded my father christmas thought experiment.

So do you think that the default for those children in my thought experiment will believe that the presents were left by some supernatural being (whether or not this is considered to be father christmas). Without any suggestion that this is a possibility I find it very hard to believe that all these children will believe that. Rather I think they will default to believing that their parents' provided the presents (just as their parents provide so much else to them).

[OH MY WORLD!]

God has given all a sense of His self.  Even atheists know in their hearts that God exists.

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are WITHOUT EXCUSE;"   Romans 1:20

[Shaker]

God has given all a sense of His self.  Even atheists know in their hearts that God exists.

Where's your evidence for this shit?

Oh, I forgot - you don't have any.

[ProfessorDavey]

Even atheists know in their hearts that God exists.

Nope.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Prof,

Stop with the father Christmas already!! That is taught, a child of one or two years of age does not give a fig about who or why, in fact the child of one or two is quite happy with a empty box.

Now a rhetorical question, where did the idea of god come from, any god.

Gonnagle.

[BeRational]

Dear Prof,

Stop with the father Christmas already!! That is taught, a child of one or two years of age does not give a fig about who or why, in fact the child of one or two is quite happy with a empty box.

Now a rhetorical question, where did the idea of god come from, any god.

Gonnagle.

It comes from humans being pattern seeking.

We think every action has a cause, and we see patterns that are not real.

Is that the wind moving the grass, or is it a deadly predator.

We like patterns, we are very very good at patterns, and the usually serve us well.

But not all the time. Religion being a case in point.

[Shaker]

I guess you're referring to agency detection BR or even hyperactive agency detection.

[BeRational]

Indeed.

Gonnagle needs the agent for the universe, and cannot accept "Don't know"

[ProfessorDavey]

Dear Prof,

Stop with the father Christmas already!! That is taught, a child of one or two years of age does not give a fig about who or why, in fact the child of one or two is quite happy with a empty box.

Now a rhetorical question, where did the idea of god come from, any god.

Gonnagle.

You answer my question first please - as I asked it first and that's only polite.

You seem to be squirming over the father christmas thought experiment. I guess because you recognise if there is never any suggestion that the presents might have come from a supernatural being that it is very unlikely that the children would come to that conclusion. Certainly not the default view.

And sure a kid give a fig about where or why for presents - because they are curious. They are just as likely to give a fig about where or why for mysterious presents that appear on 24th dec than where or why the world around that appeared. Perhaps more so as it has more direct relevance to them.

So come on them, please explain why a kid who receives presents every dec24th, but has never been taught that father christmas exists nor has there ever been any mention that the explanation for presents mysterious appearance might be a supernatural being would ever come up with that as an explanation, let alone the default explanation.

[Dicky Underpants]

God has given all a sense of His self.  Even atheists know in their hearts that God exists.

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are WITHOUT EXCUSE;"   Romans 1:20

Yea, one of Paul's more ludicrous rants (in other respects I don't think he was quite such a bad guy as some do).

As for your first sentence, it is certainly untrue as regards my own experience. As a child aged six or seven, I was packed off to sunday school as an excuse for my parents to get rid of me at least for the sunday morning. I remember arguing with the lay-preachers about whether God created the universe even then - my youthful self seems to have been initially atheist in inclination. My adult life has been more varied in its outlook, but I don't think I've ever thought that the necessity for belief in God was so damned obvious that no one had any excuse if they didn't believe. Only those in whom the critical faculty is under-developed seem to me to take this naive view.

[OH MY WORLD!]

I'm sure you have convinced yourself to a certain extent but deep down you struggle with His existence Mr. Dicky.

[Shaker]

I'm sure you have convinced yourself to a certain extent but deep down you struggle with His existence Mr. Dicky.

Evidence, boat man?

[Dicky Underpants]

I'm sure you have convinced yourself to a certain extent but deep down you struggle with His existence Mr. Dicky.

No, I gave up struggling back in the late 1980s, more or less. It was a great relief to let go.

[Shaker]

And some of us never even struggled or had anything to give up in the first place 

[Nearly Sane]

Ah the rather tedious 'you all really believe' which is either a piece of pabulum for some  empty vessel theists to trot out when they have no arguments or thoughts, or a harmless piece of childish wummery. Not even really worthy of a biscuit.

[Shaker]

Not even really worthy of a biscuit.

Oh, thank goodness; the proper word at last.