Author Topic: Deliver us from EVEL?  (Read 4326 times)

Anchorman

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Deliver us from EVEL?
« on: July 07, 2015, 08:27:37 PM »
Evel is ".....an act of constitutional vandalism." according to Miliband...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33415474

Is this the answer to the West Lothian Question...or another burach from the Westminster play pen?
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cyberman

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Re: Deliver us from EVEL?
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2015, 09:00:33 PM »
Evel is ".....an act of constitutional vandalism." according to Miliband...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33415474

Is this the answer to the West Lothian Question...or another burach from the Westminster play pen?

I am not sure whether EVEL is the answer, but it is a good question.

It is anomalous, isn't it, that people living in four areas in the UK have some kind of devolved assembly or parliament, but most people living in England don't?

Anchorman

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Re: Deliver us from EVEL?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2015, 10:09:45 PM »
Evel is ".....an act of constitutional vandalism." according to Miliband...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33415474

Is this the answer to the West Lothian Question...or another burach from the Westminster play pen?

I am not sure whether EVEL is the answer, but it is a good question.

It is anomalous, isn't it, that people living in four areas in the UK have some kind of devolved assembly or parliament, but most people living in England don't?


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Yes.
Trying to solve this situation by amending HOC standing orders, rather than legislation, is no solution.
For starters, it puts added pressure on the speaker (whoever that is, and not necarily the present holder of that office) to decide if a piece of business is English only.
It also creates second class MPs.
The only logical solution would be a devolved English parliament....but since when was Westminster ever logical?
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cyberman

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Re: Deliver us from EVEL?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2015, 10:38:43 PM »
Evel is ".....an act of constitutional vandalism." according to Miliband...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33415474

Is this the answer to the West Lothian Question...or another burach from the Westminster play pen?

I am not sure whether EVEL is the answer, but it is a good question.

It is anomalous, isn't it, that people living in four areas in the UK have some kind of devolved assembly or parliament, but most people living in England don't?


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Yes.
Trying to solve this situation by amending HOC standing orders, rather than legislation, is no solution.
For starters, it puts added pressure on the speaker (whoever that is, and not necarily the present holder of that office) to decide if a piece of business is English only.
It also creates second class MPs.
The only logical solution would be a devolved English parliament....but since when was Westminster ever logical?

A devolved english Parliament would match what goes on elsewhere. It is complicated by the fact that part of England (London) already has a devolved assembly.

Anchorman

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Re: Deliver us from EVEL?
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2015, 08:37:50 AM »
You know my views on what should be the future direction of the 'union', cyberman.
But we're stuck with what we have, and, until that changes, we need to make it work to everyone's benefit. EVEL will only lead to endless wrangling and bad feeling, if a law is deemed 'English only' but has financial repercussions for other parts of the union, whose MPs will not have their votes counted in determining whether or not the bill becomes law.
This will not strengthen the union, it will simply sew the seeds of discontent and disharmony.
Saor Alba gu brath!

Hope

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Re: Deliver us from EVEL?
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2015, 08:46:11 AM »
Apparently several Welsh Borders MPs will challenge the EVEL idea because of the fact that at least some of their constituents use services from 'the other side' of the boundary - eg: Welsh folk going to England for healthcare and English folk going to Wales for education.
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Anchorman

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Re: Deliver us from EVEL?
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2015, 09:01:03 AM »
Apparently several Welsh Borders MPs will challenge the EVEL idea because of the fact that at least some of their constituents use services from 'the other side' of the boundary - eg: Welsh folk going to England for healthcare and English folk going to Wales for education.



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That's only one of the implications of EVEL, Hope.
The others, of course, are locked up in Barnett.
Every pound spent on English only health or education has consequences in the Barnett formula...and therefore cannot be 'English only' issues.
It's gonna be 'interesting times'.......
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Gonnagle

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Re: Deliver us from EVEL?
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2015, 04:27:24 PM »
Dear Jim,

Just another Tory body swerve as Cameron runs around Europe like a headless chicken trying to fix the mess he has caused.

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Anchorman

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Re: Deliver us from EVEL?
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2015, 04:48:43 PM »
Dear Jim,

Just another Tory body swerve as Cameron runs around Europe like a headless chicken trying to fix the mess he has caused.

Gonnagle.


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EVEL isn't even a patch covering the wound. It's rubbing salt in it.
As I stated, the only real answer to West Lothian within a UK scenario is an English Parliament...and that won't happen.
This make-do-and-mend approach to the unwritten constitution has landed us with a real mess in every sense of the word.
Fixing it is probably beyond the abilities of any party.


Saor Alba gu brath!

Private Frazer

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Re: Deliver us from EVEL?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2015, 01:20:56 PM »
The problem of EVEL is the failure to convince that the laws to be voted on are actually English only laws.

That decision should be taken out of the hand of MP's and decided by an independent body made up of representatives from the four nations.

Then after that and only after that can scots MP's can be told to GTF.

Hope

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Re: Deliver us from EVEL?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2015, 01:34:51 PM »
Dear Jim,

Just another Tory body swerve as Cameron runs around Europe like a headless chicken trying to fix the mess he has caused.

Gonnagle.
Not sure that Cameron has caused it, Gonners.  He may be excerbating it, but it has been going on for so long now that the last Labour administrations and the Tory ones before that are all equally to blame.  I would even go as far as to say that, as far as Scotland is concerned, the SNP are equally to blame because their policy towards Europe is so different to the likely outcome of independence tat they are making pledges as impossible as those being made by Tsipras to the Greek people.
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jeremyp

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Re: Deliver us from EVEL?
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2015, 03:45:48 PM »
Just another Tory body swerve as Cameron runs around Europe like a headless chicken trying to fix the mess he has caused.

What mess are we talking about? 
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L.A.

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Re: Deliver us from EVEL?
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2015, 06:58:43 AM »
Just another Tory body swerve as Cameron runs around Europe like a headless chicken trying to fix the mess he has caused.

What mess are we talking about?

That would be the 'mess' whereby the UK has achieved record low unemployment and a recovering economy I assume.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 07:23:24 AM by Lapsed Atheist »
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Deliver us from EVEL?
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2015, 12:28:45 PM »
The only logical solution would be a devolved English parliament....but since when was Westminster ever logical?
No it wouldn't, because England of itself is too large to see this as devolution and too great a proportion of the UK for there to be credibly an English parliament and a UK one.

Plus there is already a devolved assembly representing about 7 million people living in England, which makes it by some margin the largest devolved body (by population) in the UK.

The answer is to bring devolution down to the English regions (just as already happens in one of those regions).

Gonnagle

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Re: Deliver us from EVEL?
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2015, 01:21:19 PM »
Dear Jeremyp,

Maybe one of our more politically minded posters can remind us of the year ( 2012/2013/2014 ) where the Tories were warned that we would be swamped by migrants but they sat on their arses and buried their heads in the sand.

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Gonnagle

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Re: Deliver us from EVEL?
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2015, 01:28:11 PM »
Dear Hope,

Quote
Not sure that Cameron has caused it, Gonners.  He may be excerbating it, but it has been going on for so long now that the last Labour administrations and the Tory ones before that are all equally to blame.  I would even go as far as to say that, as far as Scotland is concerned, the SNP are equally to blame because their policy towards Europe is so different to the likely outcome of independence tat they are making pledges as impossible as those being made by Tsipras to the Greek people.

Yes I will concede your point, both the main parties are to blame, but it was Cameron who ignored the warning, and if I remember correctly even boasted that the warning had come to nothing.

And yes again, the SNP  ( I think ) are say that Scotland needs more migrants.

And correct me if I am wrong but did Cameron not conduct part of his election campaign running around knee jerking to UKIP.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Deliver us from EVEL?
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2015, 01:32:56 PM »
Just another Tory body swerve as Cameron runs around Europe like a headless chicken trying to fix the mess he has caused.

What mess are we talking about?

That would be the 'mess' whereby the UK has achieved record low unemployment and a recovering economy I assume.
Hmm - seen the unemployment figures today?

Or the growth figures for the same quarter which were pretty dire at just 0.4%.

jeremyp

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Re: Deliver us from EVEL?
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2015, 01:49:16 PM »
Dear Jeremyp,

Maybe one of our more politically minded posters can remind us of the year ( 2012/2013/2014 ) where the Tories were warned that we would be swamped by migrants but they sat on their arses and buried their heads in the sand.

Gonnagle.

So the mess in question is our immigration problem.  Fine, I understand now.

This is a problem that has been around for a lot longer than the Cameron government.
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Gonnagle

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Re: Deliver us from EVEL?
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2015, 01:59:35 PM »
Dear Jeremyp,

Fair enough, or you could have said, oh right Gonnagle that mess which Cameron ignored until Farage starting giving him a headache.

You know!! I did vote SNP, although I am very much against this little island splitting, but it did my wee Scottish heart the power of good to note that Scotland voted with its conscience, Tory voters voted with their wallets.

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jeremyp

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Re: Deliver us from EVEL?
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2015, 02:14:25 PM »

Fair enough, or you could have said, oh right Gonnagle that mess which Cameron ignored until Farage starting giving him a headache.


I see it more as an opportunity than a problem.  I don't know how much money we spend each year trying to keep Johnny Foreigner out of our emerald isle set in a silver sea, but it doesn't seem very effective and everything might be better if we spent that money on making sure they settle in here properly.

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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Deliver us from EVEL?
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2015, 02:57:35 PM »

Fair enough, or you could have said, oh right Gonnagle that mess which Cameron ignored until Farage starting giving him a headache.


I see it more as an opportunity than a problem.  I don't know how much money we spend each year trying to keep Johnny Foreigner out of our emerald isle set in a silver sea, but it doesn't seem very effective and everything might be better if we spent that money on making sure they settle in here properly.

I suggest the amount needed would be enormous, and far out-reach what we may now be shelling out.  We would still need to spend large amounts to monitor just who is coming in, bearing in mind the terrorist threat.
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Re: Deliver us from EVEL?
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2015, 03:02:20 PM »

Fair enough, or you could have said, oh right Gonnagle that mess which Cameron ignored until Farage starting giving him a headache.


I see it more as an opportunity than a problem.  I don't know how much money we spend each year trying to keep Johnny Foreigner out of our emerald isle set in a silver sea, but it doesn't seem very effective and everything might be better if we spent that money on making sure they settle in here properly.

Well said.
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jeremyp

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Re: Deliver us from EVEL?
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2015, 07:11:05 PM »

I suggest the amount needed would be enormous,

I suggest you have no more idea how much it would cost than I do.

Quote
We would still need to spend large amounts to monitor just who is coming in, bearing in mind the terrorist threat.

We are already paying those large amounts and it's made harder because so many people feel the need to sneak in.

Furthermore, I would suggest that the terrorist threat from people who are already citizens is higher than that from immigrants if past attacks are anything to go by.
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Udayana

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Re: Deliver us from EVEL?
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2015, 07:23:44 PM »
Wondering what immigration has to do with EVEL? Is immigration going to be devolved?
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Anchorman

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Re: Deliver us from EVEL?
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2015, 07:26:28 PM »
Wondering what immigration has to do with EVEL? Is immigration going to be devolved?


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Unfortunately not.
It remains in the hands of paranoid xenophobes.
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