Heaven

[Owlswing]

If that's the case, though, it just begs the question 'Why not start everyone in heaven in and leave them there?' Why mess around with creating the universe and bodies in the first place?

O.

How else would the deity get its kicks, if it didn't have the 'pleasure' of watching human suffering?

Or, how would the deity know who wants to live with him without providing each person with life and the frrewill that goes with it?

Because, supposedly, he knows what everbody thinks, he is omniscient, or so you and the other Christians on this forum keep telling us!

So he knows from second one after birth who will want "to live with him",

Personally the only reason that I would want to meet him would be to slug him one in the mouth for all the unnecessary suffering he inflicts on the weak and the helpless. A sadistic evil bastard who demands absolute obedience or else!

Eternal life in a Heaven that had him as part of it would be absolute Hell to me.

[Dajjal]

According to a consensus of teachings from spirit guides that I heard speak through trance mediums. We do not go to heaven or hell forever, we go to a higher plane of existence where we assimilate the lessons of our life on earth. When we have been in this higher realm for long enough we realize the only way for us to spiritually evolve further is to reincarnate. We may reincarnate as many as thousands of times on many different planets,  before reaching a state of grace, or enlightenment. At that time we will have settled all karmic debts from our past actions and become free of the need for rebirth. After our final incarnation we continue to grow as immortal beings in even higher realms of existence. There is no heaven or hell there is only continual growth toward unity with God.

[Owlswing]

According to a consensus of teachings from spirit guides that I heard speak through trance mediums. We do not go to heaven or hell forever, we go to a higher plane of existence where we assimilate the lessons of our life on earth. When we have been in this higher realm for long enough we realize the only way for us to spiritually evolve further is to reincarnate. We may reincarnate as many as thousands of times on many different planets,  before reaching a state of grace, or enlightenment. At that time we will have settled all karmic debts from our past actions and become free of the need for rebirth. After our final incarnation we continue to grow as immortal beings in even higher realms of existence. There is no heaven or hell there is only continual growth toward unity with God.

The emboldened words above agree with neo-pagan thinking regarding the cycle of birth, life, death and re-birth.

The rest not so much.

[Hope]

Because, supposedly, he knows what everbody thinks, he is omniscient, or so you and the other Christians on this forum keep telling us!

So he knows from second one after birth who will want "to live with him",

So, you'd agree with the post that you have quoted that he only knows what we think once we have been born: hence my suggestion that we need to have lived in order to have made a decision and therefore for God to know what we think.

Personally the only reason that I would want to meet him would be to slug him one in the mouth for all the unnecessary suffering he inflicts on the weak and the helpless. A sadistic evil bastard who demands absolute obedience or else!

And what "unnecessary suffering" does he inflict on the weak and the helpless.  Floo has made the same accusation on many occasions, yet has never been able to provide any evidence in support of the accusation, when challenged.  Do you have any such evidence?

[ippy]

Because, supposedly, he knows what everbody thinks, he is omniscient, or so you and the other Christians on this forum keep telling us!

So he knows from second one after birth who will want "to live with him",

So, you'd agree with the post that you have quoted that he only knows what we think once we have been born: hence my suggestion that we need to have lived in order to have made a decision and therefore for God to know what we think.

Personally the only reason that I would want to meet him would be to slug him one in the mouth for all the unnecessary suffering he inflicts on the weak and the helpless. A sadistic evil bastard who demands absolute obedience or else!

And what "unnecessary suffering" does he inflict on the weak and the helpless.  Floo has made the same accusation on many occasions, yet has never been able to provide any evidence in support of the accusation, when challenged.  Do you have any such evidence?

What's that old song "Here We Go Again", happy as can be etc etc la la la la la

ippy

[Hope]

What's that old song "Here We Go Again", happy as can be etc etc la la la la la

ippy

And I'm glad that you acknowledge that you feel it necessary to do so, ippy.

[floo]

Because, supposedly, he knows what everbody thinks, he is omniscient, or so you and the other Christians on this forum keep telling us!

So he knows from second one after birth who will want "to live with him",

So, you'd agree with the post that you have quoted that he only knows what we think once we have been born: hence my suggestion that we need to have lived in order to have made a decision and therefore for God to know what we think.

Personally the only reason that I would want to meet him would be to slug him one in the mouth for all the unnecessary suffering he inflicts on the weak and the helpless. A sadistic evil bastard who demands absolute obedience or else!

And what "unnecessary suffering" does he inflict on the weak and the helpless.  Floo has made the same accusation on many occasions, yet has never been able to provide any evidence in support of the accusation, when challenged.  Do you have any such evidence?

What's that old song "Here We Go Again", happy as can be etc etc la la la la la

ippy

'All good friends and jolly good company'! (But that will be in hell)

[Shaker]

So, you'd agree with the post that you have quoted that he only knows what we think once we have been born: hence my suggestion that we need to have lived in order to have made a decision and therefore for God to know what we think.

Although true to form you were unable to answer the question when put to you, we can take this as an admission that you don't think your god is omniscient.

And what "unnecessary suffering" does he inflict on the weak and the helpless.  Floo has made the same accusation on many occasions, yet has never been able to provide any evidence in support of the accusation, when challenged.  Do you have any such evidence?

Any evidence for your assertions, hypocrite?

[Hope]

Although true to form you were unable to answer the question when put to you, we can take this as an admission that you don't think your god is omniscient.

And which question was that, Shaker?  The one that you posted in response to my answer to the question that hadn't been posted at that point?  OK, I'll try to spell it out in words of 2 or fewer syllables for you.  God knows all things, but chooses to allow us to choose our own way.  Until we have made that choice he can't know what we are thinking since we haven't thought up till that point.

Any evidence for your assertions, hypocrite?

Yes, Shakes.  God is a God of love and wants humans to live in harmony with each other and himself.  As a God of love, he is also merciful, even when humans screw it up.  Do you have any evidence that what I have said isn't the case?

[Hope]

'All good friends and jolly good company'! (But that will be in hell)

Quite possibly will be, Floo, especially for those who have chosen that destination.

[Shaker]

And which question was that, Shaker?

The one that you either missed or ignored in #18.

OK, I'll try to spell it out in words of 2 or fewer syllables for you.

No, I'm quite at home with longer words.

God knows all things, but chooses to allow us to choose our own way.  Until we have made that choice he can't know what we are thinking since we haven't thought up till that point.

The second sentence contradicts the first (and vice versa, obviously), so you're as confused as ever. Still, the second sentence reiterates your denial of your god's alleged attribute of omniscience.

Yes, Shakes.  God is a God of love and wants humans to live in harmony with each other and himself.  As a God of love, he is also merciful, even when humans screw it up.  Do you have any evidence that what I have said isn't the case?

I have abundant evidence that you can't put your hands on a keyboard to post here without either a bald, unevidenced assertion or some form of fallacious "thinking," usually your beloved negative proof fallacy, both beautifully exemplified by the above-quoted mess.

[Rhiannon]

Hope, Bran the blessed's head talked after he was dead; it was then buried facing the sea, reputedly at the hill where the Tower of London is now and for as long as it stays there Britain has his protection.

Do you have any evidence that this isn't the case?

[floo]

'All good friends and jolly good company'! (But that will be in hell)

Quite possibly will be, Floo, especially for those who have chosen that destination.

Well it can't be any worse than heaven in the company of the Biblical deity!

[Hope]

And which question was that, Shaker?

The one that you either missed or ignored in #18.

I missed it until I was responding last time.  Howervcer, since myu post answers the question even before you asked it, I wasn't too worried.

No, I'm quite at home with longer words.

You didn't seem able to understand the original version that only had 2 words of more than 2 syllables in it, so I thought you might need some help   

God knows all things, but chooses to allow us to choose our own way.  Until we have made that choice he can't know what we are thinking since we haven't thought up till that point.

The second sentence contradicts the first (and vice versa, obviously), so you're as confused as ever. Still, the second sentence reiterates your denial of your god's alleged attribute of omniscience.

Oddly enough, the 2nd sentence doesn't contradict the first, because no-one can know what anyone is thinking before they start to think - which, of course, requires life to occur.  As your 2nd sentence makes no sense.

Yes, Shakes.  God is a God of love and wants humans to live in harmony with each other and himself.  As a God of love, he is also merciful, even when humans screw it up.  Do you have any evidence that what I have said isn't the case?

I have abundant evidence that you can't put your hands on a keyboard to post here without either a bald, unevidenced assertion or some form of fallacious "thinking," usually your beloved negative proof fallacy, both beautifully exemplified by the above-quoted mess.

Sorry Shkes, I'd forgotten that you are limited in your understanding of reality to the purely physical.  Before you play the 'negative fallacy' card you love so much, do you have any evidence for the assertions that you make?

[Hope]

Well it can't be any worse than heaven in the company of the Biblical deity!

Well, since it will be the non-believer's equivalent of heaven, that doesn't make sense, unless (in view of your descriptions of Heaven) you believe that it will be a place of suffering.

[Shaker]

Oddly enough, the 2nd sentence doesn't contradict the first

Yes it does. "God knows all things" (first sentence) is denied by "God doesn't know what we're thinking until we have thought it" (second sentence).

because no-one can know what anyone is thinking before they start to think

That perfectly describes a human being working with partial knowledge and constrained by time (in fact any human being often can't know what another is thinking until the other vocalises what they're thinking), but not a god to whom those limitations are alleged (by believers) not to apply. An omniscient entity not bound by time, freed from past, present and future, would be able to know what someone thinks before they think it - that's what the word means. And your god is traditionally alleged to be both omniscient and not constrained by past, present and future. However, I see that here you're denying those attributes, though you can't seem to bring yourself to say so, which is wholly understandable - it's an illustration of how nonsensical the whole concept of gods really is, and that's bound to be disturbing to those who purport to believe in such things.

Sorry Shkes, I'd forgotten that you are limited in your understanding of reality to the purely physical.

I've not been furnished with any evidence that there's anything else, and you certainly aren't going to provide it. You claim that there is, but you seem to be short on evidential backing. Who'd have thought it?

Before you play the 'negative fallacy' card you love so much

I'm not the one who loves it - that couldn't possibly be more directly the opposite of the truth. I detest the sort of sloppiness of thought and laziness of mind that gives rise to such fallacious nonsense, but despite having been told innumerable times that it's a fallacy, here you still are still using it day in, day out. So out of the two of us, who loves it?

I remember that you once typically asserted in your usual evidence-free manner that I had not only used this fallacy but had done so more than you, but of course, every request from me for you to substantiate this claim has met with the usual cowardly silence.

do you have any evidence for the assertions that you make?

Which ones, and given that you provide no evidence for yours, why should I?

[floo]

Well it can't be any worse than heaven in the company of the Biblical deity!

Well, since it will be the non-believer's equivalent of heaven, that doesn't make sense, unless (in view of your descriptions of Heaven) you believe that it will be a place of suffering.

No I don't believe heaven or hell are a place of suffering as I don't believe they exist except in the mind of believers. It is just possible I suppose that when we die we pass on into another dimension, and then another and another and another, forever and ever!

[Owlswing]

Personally the only reason that I would want to meet him would be to slug him one in the mouth for all the unnecessary suffering he inflicts on the weak and the helpless. A sadistic evil bastard who demands absolute obedience or else!

And what "unnecessary suffering" does he inflict on the weak and the helpless.  Floo has made the same accusation on many occasions, yet has never been able to provide any evidence in support of the accusation, when challenged.  Do you have any such evidence?

Come on Hope! Even at your worst you cannot be that daft!

Childhood cancer - for one and all the rest of the horredous illnesses that children suffer.

Do not give that old eye-wash about him not inflicting these on kids - All things bright and beautiful - he made them all, but let's conveniently forget that he made everything - EVERYTHING - including the most unpleasant of diseases.

[Rhiannon]

Hope isn't playing negative fallacy Top Trumps with me. 

[Shaker]

Hope isn't playing negative fallacy Top Trumps with me. 

Wanna bet? He plays it with everybody else ... regularly. Your turn will come soon enough 

[floo]

If the deity doesn't cure a Christian, then you sometimes hear the excuse, 'they are now in a better place', meaning heaven!

[Shaker]

To be honest, in those situations you hear every excuse going.

[Hope]

Hope isn't playing negative fallacy Top Trumps with me. 

I don't need to play them with you - you don't use them.  Shakes, on the other hand, plays them all the time.

[Shaker]

Hope isn't playing negative fallacy Top Trumps with me. 

I don't need to play them with you - you don't use them.  Shakes, on the other hand, plays them all the time.

Find me an example.

But you won't will you, you great big festering old hypocrite, you? As I said just an hour and a quarter ago:

I remember that you once typically asserted in your usual evidence-free manner that I had not only used this fallacy but had done so more than you, but of course, every request from me for you to substantiate this claim has met with the usual cowardly silence.

And round and round the magic hypocrite's roundabout we go.

[Hope]

To be honest, in those situations you hear every excuse going.

Yup, Shakes, I've heard some wonderful ones from medics.  'Their condition was too advanced for treatment'; 'I've never known this treatment fail to work before'; 'There is no reason why the treatment we recommended didn't work'; 'We've realised that we treated your ... for the wrong condition'; 'I'm so sorry that I didn't recognise your ...'s condition before it was too late'; ...  (these two to the families of two of our neighbours)

Mind you, any faith healer who claims that their 'treatment' is foolproof should be steered well clear of.  No human being knows when someone's time is up, and whilst the family may be desperate for them to recover, that might be more of a death sentence for the person than death.  Sadly, it happens all too often under the scheme favoured by medical science, which can seem too interested in proving itself than caring for the person.