Heaven

[Bubbles]

Aish is usually a good source

The fact that reincarnation is part of Jewish tradition comes as a surprise to many people. 11 Nevertheless, it's mentioned in numerous places throughout the classical texts of Jewish mysticism, starting with the preeminent sourcebook of Kabbalah, the Zohar :12
As long as a person is unsuccessful in his purpose in this world, the Holy One, blessed be He, uproots him and replants him over and over again. (Zohar I 186b)
All souls are subject to reincarnation; and people do not know the ways of the Holy One, blessed be He! They do not know that they are brought before the tribunal both before they enter into this world and after they leave it; they are ignorant of the many reincarnations and secret works which they have to undergo, and of the number of naked souls, and how many naked spirits roam about in the other world without being able to enter within the veil of the King's Palace. Men do not know how the souls revolve like a stone that is thrown from a sling. But the time is at hand when these mysteries will be disclosed. (Zohar II 99b)
The Zohar and related literature 13 are filled with references to reincarnation, 14 addressing such questions as which body is resurrected and what happens to those bodies that did not achieve final perfection, 15 how many chances a soul is given to achieve completion through reincarnation, 16 whether a husband and wife can reincarnate together,17 if a delay in burial can affect reincarnation,18 and if a soul can reincarnate into an animal. 19


http://www.aish.com/jl/l/a/48943926.html

Why only think some Jewish writings are relevant to Christians?

If Judaism is the root from which Christianity sprang, then surely it's relevant in that it's there at all.

Christianities knowledge of God comes from Judaism after all.

[Maeght]

........ more in tune with evolution ....

An interesting phrase - what do you mean by that Sriram?

[Sassy]

There is more evidence for reincarnation than for the 6 day creation....or Adam & Eve....or eternal damnation. It also makes more sense, every one is ultimately equal and free, and is more in tune with evolution and slow development than the 'one life-judgement-damnation' theory.

Here is something on reincarnation in  Christianity.   It is just a site I came across...not sure about the quotes. You decide.

http://reluctant-messenger.com/origen3.html

Cheers.

Sriram

Sriram,

One could say there is more evidence for Satan existence given the evil man does to each other.
As for Adam and Eve the evidence is us and that evidence outweighs evidence for reincarnation. Re-incarnation would suggest the word of  a being outside that of man for such a thing to exist. It would also give credence to the truth the soul never dies giving even greater meaning and making possible  the resurrection of Christ.

As for eternal damnation those atheists who died and came back having experienced hell, now believers in Christ as more worthy of being believed than those who never came back, surely?

It depends how you process evidence. The fact people are being healed by the power of God is evidence for God on a greater scale. We need to examine all the evidence. I do not believe that re-incarnation can happen. But that is the difference between our faiths. 

[Sassy]

TOTALLY AGREE Sriram & Floo !!
Jesus is proof of nothing at all !!!!
Sass
YOU try & argue your POV with a Muslim ?!!?!??

Nick

Nick,

Has Mahomet, actually done something to bring peace to the world as Christ did?

A Muslim could not argue a point in such circumstances as Christ was foretold, Mahomet wasn't.
I honestly do not believe any points can be raised which are not in line with the truth given by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel.

[Sassy]

Sassy

http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380302/jewish/Gate-of-Reincarnations-Introduction.htm

It's also features  in some writings in some parts of Judaism.
http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380599/jewish/Judaism-and-Reincarnation.htm

Morning Rose,

I took a quick look but the Torah does not suggest of even support reincarnation.
Their have been many beliefs of the century which are not and never were part of the teachings of the Law and Prophets.
Pharisee and Sadducee held contrary beliefs to one another about the existence of Angels and Resurrection.
A point to note is if several people have existed with one soul and all were different in the lives. How could that soul live in all persons they had been at resurrection?

They may there is evidence of some Jews having believed in something not part of the covenants of Abraham and Moses.
But there is nothing in the Torah the first five books of the OT to suggest it was ever God given to them. 

[Sriram]

An interesting phrase - what do you mean by that Sriram?

Just guess...! I have written about this many times.

[Sassy]

Aish is usually a good source


Why only think some Jewish writings are relevant to Christians?

If Judaism is the root from which Christianity sprang, then surely it's relevant in that it's there at all.

Christianities knowledge of God comes from Judaism after all.

The two Covenants are independent of each other.

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

God himself said the final covenant would not be based on the written law. The Torah and the other books of the Prophets but as Christ said that his commandments sum up all the laws and teachings of the Prophets.
A way in which the believers both Jew and Gentile would live in agreement through the Messiahs teachings and them being on the inside of the person. So it negates the way of the old covenant (outward expression of the law by man) putting in place the way of Spirit and Truth. Meaning God pouring his Spirit on all flesh.

[Maeght]

Not like you to not want to write a lot more about it Sriram.

[Maeght]

As for eternal damnation those atheists who died and came back having experienced hell, now believers in Christ as more worthy of being believed than those who never came back, surely?

You think people have actually died and come back from Hell?

[Bubbles]

You think people have actually died and come back from Hell?

Some people claim to have had a NDE some positive and others negative.

I don't think all the negative ones were unbelievers, particularly.

It does seem to be life changing though, but I'm not sure they come out of it as being exclusive religious believers of the bible sort.

http://www.near-death.com/science/evidence/people-are-dramatically-changed-by-ndes.html

https://pmhatwater.hypermart.net/resources/PDFs/Articles/Hannover-NDE-Aftereffect.pdf

[Brownie]

Sassy: "I honestly do not believe any points can be raised which are not in line with the truth given by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel."


In fairness. Islam is an Abrahamic religion.

Some 'peaceful' (in a sense), things that Mohammed did early on was restrict polygamy, rife at that time, to four wives with consent of existing wives, allow women to keep their money, either what they had before marriage or accued after;  a couple of other things which will come to me later or I'll look up.

I am not saying fuelled by an opinion, merely in the interests of fairness, to give balance.

[Maeght]

Some people claim to have had a NDE some positive and others negative.

I don't think all the negative ones were unbelievers, particularly.

It does seem to be life changing though, but I'm not sure they come out of it as being exclusive religious believers of the bible sort.

http://www.near-death.com/science/evidence/people-are-dramatically-changed-by-ndes.html

https://pmhatwater.hypermart.net/resources/PDFs/Articles/Hannover-NDE-Aftereffect.pdf

I'm very aware of reports of NDEs - having discussed this many times with Sriram in particular. People certainly report experiences when they have recovered from near death situations (near death being an important thing to note) but what causes these experiences we do not currently know. I guess I shouldn't be surprised if Sassy believes these are reports of people actually dying, going to hell, then returning, but I was.

[Steve H]

If heaven was an absolute paradise which lasts forever, surely that would get extremely boring?

Indeed - but not as boring as your repetitive anti-religious posts.  For someone who doesn't believe in God, you seem to be pretty obsessed with him/her/it/them.

[Sriram]

I'm very aware of reports of NDEs - having discussed this many times with Sriram in particular. People certainly report experiences when they have recovered from near death situations (near death being an important thing to note) but what causes these experiences we do not currently know. I guess I shouldn't be surprised if Sassy believes these are reports of people actually dying, going to hell, then returning, but I was.

NDE's are the most prolific and most convincing evidence yet for an after-life. The fact that many people choose to regard them as some sort of a brain generated illusion, only shows the compulsive need in some people to find a material explanation for all experiences, at all costs.    Its a mental block that is not easy to remove.

Perhaps another generation has to pass  before an after-life will be commonly regarded as a fact of life and people would integrate that idea into their  daily lives. It will not be a matter of 'faith' or 'belief' any more but a real experience that people can look forward to after they leave the body. As real as looking forward to going home from boarding school during the holidays. That would be a good situation instead of all this tiresome 'blind man's buff' with the universe that we are currently indulging in. 

[Aruntraveller]

Oh there is some bollocks talked here.

[Sriram]

Oh there is some bollocks talked here.

Right!!

[BeRational]

Right!!

And the people that believe unevidenced things, post the most.

[Enki]

NDE's are the most prolific and most convincing evidence yet for an after-life. The fact that many people choose to regard them as some sort of a brain generated illusion, only shows the compulsive need in some people to find a material explanation for all experiences, at all costs.    Its a mental block that is not easy to remove.

Perhaps another generation has to pass  before an after-life will be commonly regarded as a fact of life and people would integrate that idea into their  daily lives. It will not be a matter of 'faith' or 'belief' any more but a real experience that people can look forward to after they leave the body. As real as looking forward to going home from boarding school during the holidays. That would be a good situation instead of all this tiresome 'blind man's buff' with the universe that we are currently indulging in. 

Or perhaps in another generation, the situation will still be the same with some people still relying on anecdotal evidence in support of their preferred conclusions, or indeed, there may be some breakthrough which may provide conclusive evidence one way or the other. By that time however I would assume I would be long gone, and will actually know if there is a life after death...or not, as the case may be.

[Maeght]

NDE's are the most prolific and most convincing evidence yet for an after-life. The fact that many people choose to regard them as some sort of a brain generated illusion, only shows the compulsive need in some people to find a material explanation for all experiences, at all costs.    Its a mental block that is not easy to remove.

Perhaps another generation has to pass  before an after-life will be commonly regarded as a fact of life and people would integrate that idea into their  daily lives. It will not be a matter of 'faith' or 'belief' any more but a real experience that people can look forward to after they leave the body. As real as looking forward to going home from boarding school during the holidays. That would be a good situation instead of all this tiresome 'blind man's buff' with the universe that we are currently indulging in. 

It could just as easily be said that the fact that many people choose to regard them as evidence for the after life shows the compulsive need in some people to find a non-material explanation for currently unexplained experiences, at all costs.    Its a mental block that is not easy to remove.

NDEs happen, no doubt. To take them as evidence for an afterlife requires a belief in such a thing. As it stands they are evidence of nothing.

[floo]

I thought there was a natural explanation for NDEs.

[Maeght]

I thought there was a natural explanation for NDEs.

There are suggestions of possible natural causes but nothing more than that since they haven't really been studied that closely. Its not easy to do scientific studies on someone in a near death situation of course.

[Nearly Sane]

There are suggestions of possible natural causes but nothing more than that since they haven't really been studied that closely. Its not easy to do scientific studies on someone in a near death situation of course.

It's worth noting that Sriram does not see an afterlife as a supernatural claim, rather he sees it as part of a natural claim that is evidenced by the experiences

[Sriram]

It's worth noting that Sriram does not see an afterlife as a supernatural claim, rather he sees it as part of a natural claim that is evidenced by the experiences

Thanks NS. Very true!

[Sriram]

NDEs happen, no doubt. To take them as evidence for an afterlife requires a belief in such a thing. As it stands they are evidence of nothing.

When millions of people around the world experience almost the very same things and they actually experience being out of the body and in another place during such events.....why would that be discounted and all their experiences be regarded as merely brain generated?!!   

That is the most bizarre and myopic view anyone can take. 

[Nearly Sane]

When millions of people around the world experience almost the very same things and they actually experience being out of the body and in another place during such events.....why would that be discounted and all their experiences be regarded as merely brain generated?!!   

That is the most bizarre and myopic view anyone can take.

can I just check an assumption based on this and a couple of your recent posts? Would I be correct in thinking that you would see alien abduction stories as true in some sense but relating to other universes?