Author Topic: Heaven  (Read 31082 times)

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #125 on: September 20, 2016, 03:15:44 PM »
But that is no different to describing the process of dreaming, surely.

Perhaps an NDE is nothing more than a vivid dream brought on by - perhaps - unusual neurochemical events associated with the early stages of the dying process and experienced when the individual is in a semi conscious state?

Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

floo

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #126 on: September 20, 2016, 03:16:56 PM »
Perhaps an NDE is nothing more than a vivid dream brought on by - perhaps - unusual neurochemical events associated with the early stages of the dying process and experienced when the individual is in a semi conscious state?

That seems likely.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #127 on: September 20, 2016, 03:22:27 PM »
Perhaps an NDE is nothing more than a vivid dream brought on by - perhaps - unusual neurochemical events associated with the early stages of the dying process and experienced when the individual is in a semi conscious state?

Well maybe - but I am still puzzled by the many similarities people experience. It's a bit like that other dream/nightmare prevalent through a lot of cultures (forgotten what it is called but the crouching creature thingy)  why the similarities across different cultures.
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. - God is Love.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #128 on: September 20, 2016, 04:22:33 PM »
One thing that puzzles me, is how can these people 'see' these things if they are genuinely 'out' of their body?
Where does this power of sight come from?  :-\
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Sassy

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #129 on: September 20, 2016, 04:29:41 PM »
You think people have actually died and come back from Hell?

Rose points toward near death experience but some have actually died and come back having seen hell.

Just google... :)
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
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Sassy

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #130 on: September 20, 2016, 04:31:53 PM »
Oh there is some bollocks talked here.

Does the reality that some have died and come back claiming they have seen hell and been raised when they cried out to Jesus actually alarm you?

I ask because you are making a blanket statement that people are talking bollocks. But in reality you cannot dismiss what others claim without addressing the issues themselves.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Enki

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #131 on: September 20, 2016, 04:37:23 PM »
Hi everyone,

This is probably the wrong thread to elaborate on this subject...but what the heck..!

Most NDE features are common across cultures, age, gender and class.  When a person meets with an accident or has a heart attack or something...the following usually happen.

1. Out of body experience...they see their own body lying down there. They realize they are 'dead'.

2. Often they cannot recognize their own body except through some object like a ring. Seems alien to them.

3. They feel happy and peaceful.

4. Sometimes they feel a sense of lose for leaving behind some one like their children.
 
5. Some people see dead relatives who come to help them.

6. Some of them have a rapid life review. They see all the harm and pain they have caused.

7. Some of them have a sense of absolute knowledge. All questions are answered or seem irrelevant.

8. Some of them see dead people waiting to be reincarnated.

9. Some of them float through a dark tunnel or a staircase.

10. They see a bright light that they identify with God or Jesus  or Ram or Allah. Some people think of it as their Higher Self.

11. They are asked to go back and finish their duties.

12. Some people see a Silver Cord that seems to attached them to their body.

13. They then feel themselves being pulled back into their body.

14. They feel heavy and uncomfortable back in their body. Most of them want to stay 'dead'.

15. They are able to recount the events that transpired at the hospital/accident site when they were lying dead. They can identify objects, medical instruments and people who were involved.

16. It is life changing and the people become more loving and selfless. Life begins to have a meaning and purpose. 

17. Some people (a minority) have negative NDE's where they feel fear. They see suffering and pain. 


Broadly these are the experiences that most people have during NDE's. they are common across cultures except that the bright light is identified with different deities in different cultures. Reincarnation is mentioned even by people who do not believe in reincarnation( Christians, muslims). 

If there is anything to take away...it is that religion is not important and that secular spiritual development, love and good deeds are more important.

Cheers.

Sriram

Anyone can say can state that most NDE features are common across cultures, age, gender and class, and then enumerate them with the vague decription as 'some of them'. Why not look at a real study on, for instance, non western cultures and experiences of NDEs.

For instance the following study:

http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc799379/m2/1/high_res_d/vol26-no4.pdf#page=9

finds the following:

No instances of OBEs in Africa or Aboriginal Australia

No instances of the tunnel effect in India, Tibet, Guam, Aboriginal Australia or Native America

No instances of a life review in Guam, Hawaii, Maori new Zealand, Aboriginal Australia, native America or Africa

The only two NDE experience strands from this study that do seem cross cultural are encountering other beings and moving into another realm, and, even here, there is great variation on who/what is encountered.

Not exactly a massive endorsement for your statement that 'Most NDE features are common across cultures, age, gender and class.' is it?

Also, I find it interesting that in the years following Moody's 'Life after Death'(1975), there was scant reference given to distressing and frightening NDE experiences, possibly because the overarching influence was firmly put on radiant experiences, dominated by pleasurable emotions, and also possibly because people were more reluctant to talk about their distressing experiences. Now, we have many more accounts, and it seems likely a minority, as you say(but possibly as much as 20%), do experience NDEs with distressing/frightening elements.
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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Sassy

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #132 on: September 20, 2016, 04:39:17 PM »
Sass
I totally agree - we need only see what's happening today to see the legacy of Islam. These Muslims are doing precisely what their fascist leader did THEN.
We must remember he didn't do it all alone !?!?!? ;)

Christ clearly points out that the descendants of Abraham are those men who do as he did.
Christ being the Son of God doing as he did. But both Abrahams'  Son Isaac and Gods Son Jesus Christ were part of promises from God.  God said he would make Ishmaels people a great nation he never made a covenant with them because Isaac was the chosen son and the covenant covered all that were circumcised. But they left the truth and we see not Ishmael not his direct descendant but someone claiming to be his descendant went against the truth of the covenant of God with Abraham and Isaac. Just as they ignored the Christ the Messiah and went there own way again.

Adam and Eve did it all on their own. No matter how much you tell the truth and warn humans they still go their own way.  We know that they did do it all alone. :)
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #133 on: September 20, 2016, 04:44:15 PM »
A point for those discussing NDE and actual resurrection after death.

Christ, at his death is recorded as having blood and water pour from his side when a spear punctures his body. Water was a clear sign that Christ was dead. Any person who has died gives off clear signals today (medically) in the body that shows them to be dead.

We can argue but we cannot deny the medical facts that people have come back from the dead.



We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sriram

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #134 on: September 20, 2016, 05:07:51 PM »

enki...

Psychologists like Raymond Moody, Kenneth Ring and others started early (in the 1970's) to investigate such phenomena. Medical professionals like Sam Parnia have been very devoted in their research for many years now and many hospitals in the west are equipped to deal with such matters.  Many of them also have trained professionals to survey and investigate such patients. The chances of people surviving a 'death' situation are also much higher in the west due to the immediate medical care available.

The same cannot be said of places like Africa, aborigines in Australia, native Americans, many places in India etc.  The chances of people surviving traumatic events are small and the chances of trained professionals being readily available to investigate such cases are also very small.  We don't know what questions they asked, in what language, how frightened the local people were, how many times people bothered to repeatedly contact them after their discharge from hospital and so on. These are tricky situations and getting correct information is not easy, especially from people with a rural and tribal background.

So, the samples taken from such communities cannot be taken as very representative.  As more of such research picks up worldwide and trained professionals become available, information may become more reliable. The fact that the information is generally in line with the other surveys should be enough. Too much details will be difficult to come by.

Sebastian toe.....

The soul/spirit is said to have all faculties such as sight, hearing, smell etc. It doesn't need eyes and ears.

The body is like a robot or probe using which we live and  experience this world. Or we can think of the body as a space suit.  We experience the environment through it. If something goes wrong with the robot or probe or space suit...we will not be able to see or hear anything. That does not mean that we  become blind or deaf.  If we leave the robot or probe or space suit...we can see and hear very well....in fact better than from within the heavy appendage.

It is similar with the spirit and the body.   If something in the  eye or ear or the brain goes wrong we cannot experience the world....but if we leave the body we can experience the world better and more vividly than from within the body. This is what many NDE people say. We have seen that many born blind people have NDE's and see everything just like everyone else.  It is the body that is blind or dead. Not the spirit....which is what you really are. 

More tomorrow. Goodnight everyone!
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 05:10:51 PM by Sriram »

Aruntraveller

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #135 on: September 20, 2016, 05:16:03 PM »
Does the reality that some have died and come back claiming they have seen hell and been raised when they cried out to Jesus actually alarm you?

I ask because you are making a blanket statement that people are talking bollocks. But in reality you cannot dismiss what others claim without addressing the issues themselves.

Aye. Well now you are back the bollock talking has increased tenfold.
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. - God is Love.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #136 on: September 20, 2016, 05:35:21 PM »
Aye. Well now you are back the bollock talking has increased tenfold.
...fold? I would have said factorial.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Enki

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #137 on: September 20, 2016, 05:36:32 PM »
enki...

Psychologists like Raymond Moody, Kenneth Ring and others started early (in the 1970's) to investigate such phenomena. Medical professionals like Sam Parnia have been very devoted in their research for many years now and many hospitals in the west are equipped to deal with such matters.  Many of them also have trained professionals to survey and investigate such patients. The chances of people surviving a 'death' situation are also much higher in the west due to the immediate medical care available.

The same cannot be said of places like Africa, aborigines in Australia, native Americans, many places in India etc.  The chances of people surviving traumatic events are small and the chances of trained professionals being readily available to investigate such cases are also very small.  We don't know what questions they asked, in what language, how frightened the local people were, how many times people bothered to repeatedly contact them after their discharge from hospital and so on. These are tricky situations and getting correct information is not easy, especially from people with a rural and tribal background.

So, the samples taken from such communities cannot be taken as very representative.  As more of such research picks up worldwide and trained professionals become available, information may become more reliable. The fact that the information is generally in line with the other surveys should be enough. Too much details will be difficult to come by.

Which points I am very happy to accept. In which case, the same arguments must apply to your 'most NDE features are common across cultures' comment equally. :)
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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Maeght

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #138 on: September 20, 2016, 07:00:54 PM »
Rose points toward near death experience but some have actually died and come back having seen hell.

Just google... :)

My response to Rose was

'I'm very aware of reports of NDEs - having discussed this many times with Sriram in particular. People certainly report experiences when they have recovered from near death situations (near death being an important thing to note) but what causes these experiences we do not currently know.'

That people have died and gone to hell then come back isn't a fact but a belief I'm afraid.

Maeght

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #139 on: September 20, 2016, 07:05:21 PM »
A point for those discussing NDE and actual resurrection after death.

Christ, at his death is recorded as having blood and water pour from his side when a spear punctures his body. Water was a clear sign that Christ was dead. Any person who has died gives off clear signals today (medically) in the body that shows them to be dead.

We can argue but we cannot deny the medical facts that people have come back from the dead.

Why is water a clear sign of death?

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #140 on: September 20, 2016, 09:19:13 PM »
Why is water a clear sign of death?
...because Her Sassyness says so.  ::)
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Sassy

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #141 on: September 21, 2016, 01:03:10 AM »
Aye. Well now you are back the bollock talking has increased tenfold.

Would that be a statement of a personal nature?
Where you are referring to your posts?


 I guess you could try showing some proof giving us a running commentary and evidence.. That would be a 'No' then as you made it up.

 :)
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #142 on: September 21, 2016, 01:08:50 AM »
My response to Rose was

'I'm very aware of reports of NDEs - having discussed this many times with Sriram in particular. People certainly report experiences when they have recovered from near death situations (near death being an important thing to note) but what causes these experiences we do not currently know.'

That people have died and gone to hell then come back isn't a fact but a belief I'm afraid.

Wrong on the first account it is documentated in medical history in France of such a things happening. A man died of a heart attack and came back to life having gone to hell and shout to Jesus to save him.

Of course if you have never really studied these subjects or seen them on TV you won't be expected to have that knowledge. But shouldn't you at least check the facts before you make unsustainable statements about these things? :)
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #143 on: September 21, 2016, 01:21:54 AM »
Why is water a clear sign of death?

Because it meant the spear had not only punctured the lung but the penetration of the heart causing an outpouring of blood and pericardial fluid which was referred to as water. So ensuring he was dead.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sriram

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #144 on: September 21, 2016, 06:39:09 AM »
Which points I am very happy to accept. In which case, the same arguments must apply to your 'most NDE features are common across cultures' comment equally. :)


When I talked of all cultures I obviously meant all cultures where such research and investigations has been done to an equal level of reliability. Not with tribal and rural folk where even contacting and interviewing them would be a problem. 

Even in major cities in India for example, though we have big modern hospitals...I am not sure that they are equipped to investigate NDE's.  That sort of thing requires a very different focus and a different set of trained professionals. Patients would need to be contacted months after they have recovered and maybe over several sittings, without hurting their sentiments etc. Normal doctors on duty may not be able to devote their time and energy to such matters.

I was referring to different countries like the US, UK and Europe and people belonging to different beliefs and religious backgrounds like Christians, Muslims, Hindus (Anita Moorjani for example), atheists etc.   

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Moorjani

http://www.near-death.com/religion/atheism/an-analysis-of-the-ndes-of-atheists.html

« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 07:18:58 AM by Sriram »

Aruntraveller

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #145 on: September 21, 2016, 08:56:04 AM »
Quote
Would that be a statement of a personal nature?

It may well be personal in that it applies to you as a person, but it is also factual.
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. - God is Love.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #146 on: September 21, 2016, 09:41:39 AM »
Wrong on the first account it is documentated in medical history in France of such a things happening. A man died of a heart attack and came back to life having gone to hell and shout to Jesus to save him.

Let's rewrite this:

There is a report from France (reference please) which states that a man whose heart was restarted after a myocardial infarction had apparently suffered a dream-like illusion in which he had imagined himself going to Hell and then invoking the name of Jesus in order to save him.

So what?
Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #147 on: September 21, 2016, 09:54:41 AM »
You may find this of interest. Dr Jane Aspell is a cognitive neuroscientist at Anglia Ruskin University.

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/interviews/interview/1000981/
Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #148 on: September 21, 2016, 10:13:22 AM »
Wrong on the first account it is documentated in medical history in France of such a things happening. A man died of a heart attack and came back to life having gone to hell and shout to Jesus to save him.

Of course if you have never really studied these subjects or seen them on TV you won't be expected to have that knowledge. But shouldn't you at least check the facts before you make unsustainable statements about these things? :)
Since medicine is methodologically naturalistic, your above claim is false by definition

Maeght

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #149 on: September 21, 2016, 10:44:30 AM »
Wrong on the first account it is documentated in medical history in France of such a things happening. A man died of a heart attack and came back to life having gone to hell and shout to Jesus to save him.

Of course if you have never really studied these subjects or seen them on TV you won't be expected to have that knowledge. But shouldn't you at least check the facts before you make unsustainable statements about these things? :)

As I said in my post I am well aware of accounts of NDEs so not sure why you talk about checking facts or suggest I have not studied the subject or seen them on TV (!?).

I accept that claims like this are made - as I have said we do not know the cause of such claims and to just accept what someone claims without supporting evidence is not really a good idea or anything to base an argument on. That someone died, went to hell and came back is not a fact but a claim made by people who went through a traumatic experience, nothing more.