Author Topic: Sunday trading  (Read 3977 times)

BashfulAnthony

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7527
Sunday trading
« on: November 10, 2015, 06:15:20 PM »

"Government plans to relax Sunday trading laws in England and Wales have been put on hold, after SNP opposition meant it faced defeat in the Commons.
The SNP had said it would vote against the changes amid fears it could drive down Scottish workers' wages."

Excellent.  The SNP has shown good sense
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Harrowby Hall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2583
Re: Sunday trading
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2015, 06:31:53 PM »

"Government plans to relax Sunday trading laws in England and Wales have been put on hold, after SNP opposition meant it faced defeat in the Commons.
The SNP had said it would vote against the changes amid fears it could drive down Scottish workers' wages."

Excellent.  The SNP has shown good sense

But the SNP are not doing it to support superstition and belief in magic and fairies. They are doing it to protect the earnibgs of their voters who do work on Sundays.
Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19972
Re: Sunday trading
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2015, 06:35:41 PM »
Hang on a minute, how can it be true that the SNP which already has unrestricted Sunday Trading is going to block Sunday trading in the rest of the UK. This is hypocrisy or money grubbing of the first order.

Actually, how can they block Sunday trading changes? The Tories have a majority.
04W24W0W04100000W4 0000110W02000040100 0W00000000010100001 1W0011200010040040 000W1W3000000000000 0400000000000001004W
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may ap

Harrowby Hall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2583
Re: Sunday trading
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2015, 06:48:30 PM »
Hang on a minute, how can it be true that the SNP which already has unrestricted Sunday Trading is going to block Sunday trading in the rest of the UK. This is hypocrisy or money grubbing of the first order.

Actually, how can they block Sunday trading changes? The Tories have a majority.

But there are Tory backbenchers who will not support it. If they only abstain the Government may well lose its majority.
Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

BashfulAnthony

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7527
Re: Sunday trading
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2015, 06:50:41 PM »
Hang on a minute, how can it be true that the SNP which already has unrestricted Sunday Trading is going to block Sunday trading in the rest of the UK. This is hypocrisy or money grubbing of the first order.

Actually, how can they block Sunday trading changes? The Tories have a majority.

A number of Tories have indicated they would vote against a relaxing of trading laws.   As the proposed regulations would have been applicable in England and Wales only, the SNP has been convinced by shopworkers' union Usdaw that retailers would pay for the extra hours by cutting wages across the UK - including those of Scottish workers currently being paid premium wages for Sunday work.  They are likely correct.  So the SNP are, in their view, protecting Scottish workers.
.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 06:56:59 PM by BashfulAnthony »
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19972
Re: Sunday trading
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2015, 07:19:17 PM »
Hang on a minute, how can it be true that the SNP which already has unrestricted Sunday Trading is going to block Sunday trading in the rest of the UK. This is hypocrisy or money grubbing of the first order.

Actually, how can they block Sunday trading changes? The Tories have a majority.

A number of Tories have indicated they would vote against a relaxing of trading laws.   As the proposed regulations would have been applicable in England and Wales only, the SNP has been convinced by shopworkers' union Usdaw that retailers would pay for the extra hours by cutting wages across the UK - including those of Scottish workers currently being paid premium wages for Sunday work.  They are likely correct.  So the SNP are, in their view, protecting Scottish workers.
.
Yes I just read that in the BBC report. It strikes me as wrong in many ways. If Scottish workers get premium wages for working on a Sunday, there's no logical reason why that would stop just because the rest of the country gets the same rules. The commercial reasons would be the same in England.
04W24W0W04100000W4 0000110W02000040100 0W00000000010100001 1W0011200010040040 000W1W3000000000000 0400000000000001004W
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may ap

Owlswing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5147
Re: Sunday trading
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2015, 07:25:24 PM »
The SNP are using every possible chance they get to show that they can and will screw up anything so that they can get England to grant them independance to get rid of them.
If there must be trouble let it be in my time that my children may have peace. Thomas Payne

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some do what you must!

BashfulAnthony

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7527
Re: Sunday trading
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2015, 07:29:05 PM »
Hang on a minute, how can it be true that the SNP which already has unrestricted Sunday Trading is going to block Sunday trading in the rest of the UK. This is hypocrisy or money grubbing of the first order.

Actually, how can they block Sunday trading changes? The Tories have a majority.

A number of Tories have indicated they would vote against a relaxing of trading laws.   As the proposed regulations would have been applicable in England and Wales only, the SNP has been convinced by shopworkers' union Usdaw that retailers would pay for the extra hours by cutting wages across the UK - including those of Scottish workers currently being paid premium wages for Sunday work.  They are likely correct.  So the SNP are, in their view, protecting Scottish workers.
.
Yes I just read that in the BBC report. It strikes me as wrong in many ways. If Scottish workers get premium wages for working on a Sunday, there's no logical reason why that would stop just because the rest of the country gets the same rules. The commercial reasons would be the same in England.

If retailers cut wages to pay for the extra hours, they would likely do so in Scotland as elsewhere.  Why would they allow Scotland any privileges?  That's what the SNP think anyway.
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11815
Re: Sunday trading
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2015, 07:34:07 PM »
I suspect there are politics at play here, with the SNP perhaps seeing the opportunity to make their presence felt.

The idea that wages would be driven down here in Scotland implies that Sunday trading UK-wide would be marginal profit-wise, and if introduced down south might generate losses due to premium Sunday wage rates. This seems odd to me, since based on anecdotal experience (mine) on a typical Sunday the local Tesco in Milngavie is fairly busy at 8.30am (it opens at 8am) and is still reasonably busy at 9.30pm (it closes at 10pm on Sundays).

I wonder if it might be more the case that USDAW don't like it, because it would be a major change to shopping in England & Wales, and the SNP (who clearly are comfortable with the concept) see an opportunity to play politics in support of their agenda.

Udayana

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3279
  • βε ηερε νοω
Re: Sunday trading
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2015, 08:48:17 PM »
It is strangely satisfying how this coalesces (or maybe coagulates) two long running threads we have discussed on here, on Sunday trading and influence of SNP MPs on English and Welsh issues.

We didn't start the fire...

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8301
Re: Sunday trading
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2015, 08:51:46 PM »
Hang on a minute, how can it be true that the SNP which already has unrestricted Sunday Trading is going to block Sunday trading in the rest of the UK. This is hypocrisy or money grubbing of the first order.

Actually, how can they block Sunday trading changes? The Tories have a majority.

But there are Tory backbenchers who will not support it. If they only abstain the Government may well lose its majority.
But there will also be Labour MPs who vote in favour no doubt.

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19972
Re: Sunday trading
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2015, 08:55:46 PM »


If retailers cut wages to pay for the extra hours, they would likely do so in Scotland as elsewhere.  Why would they allow Scotland any privileges?  That's what the SNP think anyway.

But we know the argument to be fallacious. In Scotland, they already have unrestricted Sunday trading, so, if retailers need to cut wages in order to pay for it, they would already have done so in Scotland.
04W24W0W04100000W4 0000110W02000040100 0W00000000010100001 1W0011200010040040 000W1W3000000000000 0400000000000001004W
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may ap

BashfulAnthony

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7527
Re: Sunday trading
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2015, 08:56:12 PM »
Hang on a minute, how can it be true that the SNP which already has unrestricted Sunday Trading is going to block Sunday trading in the rest of the UK. This is hypocrisy or money grubbing of the first order.

Actually, how can they block Sunday trading changes? The Tories have a majority.

But there are Tory backbenchers who will not support it. If they only abstain the Government may well lose its majority.
But there will also be Labour MPs who vote in favour no doubt.

But Cameron thought not, and that's why he has put it on ice.
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8301
Re: Sunday trading
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2015, 08:57:37 PM »


If retailers cut wages to pay for the extra hours, they would likely do so in Scotland as elsewhere.  Why would they allow Scotland any privileges?  That's what the SNP think anyway.

But we know the argument to be fallacious. In Scotland, they already have unrestricted Sunday trading, so, if retailers need to cut wages in order to pay for it, they would already have done so in Scotland.
Indeed and it seems rather bizarre that the SNP would block something in England that the are completely comfortable with in Scotland and it an accepted part of the landscape.

BashfulAnthony

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7527
Re: Sunday trading
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2015, 08:58:21 PM »


If retailers cut wages to pay for the extra hours, they would likely do so in Scotland as elsewhere.  Why would they allow Scotland any privileges?  That's what the SNP think anyway.

But we know the argument to be fallacious. In Scotland, they already have unrestricted Sunday trading, so, if retailers need to cut wages in order to pay for it, they would already have done so in Scotland.

I think that the SNP fear that the extra coats in wages to retailers in England and Wales will be absorbed by Scottish workers also, in a lowering of their wages.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 09:00:06 PM by BashfulAnthony »
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8301
Re: Sunday trading
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2015, 09:05:44 PM »


If retailers cut wages to pay for the extra hours, they would likely do so in Scotland as elsewhere.  Why would they allow Scotland any privileges?  That's what the SNP think anyway.

But we know the argument to be fallacious. In Scotland, they already have unrestricted Sunday trading, so, if retailers need to cut wages in order to pay for it, they would already have done so in Scotland.

I think that the SNP fear that the extra coats in wages to retailers in England and Wales will be absorbed by Scottish workers also, in a lowering of their wages.
But shops in England will only open for extended hours if it makes commercial sense so to do.

BashfulAnthony

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7527
Re: Sunday trading
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2015, 09:08:41 PM »


If retailers cut wages to pay for the extra hours, they would likely do so in Scotland as elsewhere.  Why would they allow Scotland any privileges?  That's what the SNP think anyway.

But we know the argument to be fallacious. In Scotland, they already have unrestricted Sunday trading, so, if retailers need to cut wages in order to pay for it, they would already have done so in Scotland.

I think that the SNP fear that the extra coats in wages to retailers in England and Wales will be absorbed by Scottish workers also, in a lowering of their wages.
But shops in England will only open for extended hours if it makes commercial sense so to do.

Who knows?  Tesco, for example, are losing money, and may try anything to try and recover, including extra hours at low rates of pay.
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8301
Re: Sunday trading
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2015, 09:11:05 PM »


If retailers cut wages to pay for the extra hours, they would likely do so in Scotland as elsewhere.  Why would they allow Scotland any privileges?  That's what the SNP think anyway.

But we know the argument to be fallacious. In Scotland, they already have unrestricted Sunday trading, so, if retailers need to cut wages in order to pay for it, they would already have done so in Scotland.

I think that the SNP fear that the extra coats in wages to retailers in England and Wales will be absorbed by Scottish workers also, in a lowering of their wages.
But shops in England will only open for extended hours if it makes commercial sense so to do.

Who knows?  Tesco, for example, are losing money, and may try anything to try and recover, including extra hours at low rates of pay.
But that would only work if the extra hours improve their position - losing even more money by opening even longer makes no commercial sense.

BashfulAnthony

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7527
Re: Sunday trading
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2015, 09:13:18 PM »


If retailers cut wages to pay for the extra hours, they would likely do so in Scotland as elsewhere.  Why would they allow Scotland any privileges?  That's what the SNP think anyway.

But we know the argument to be fallacious. In Scotland, they already have unrestricted Sunday trading, so, if retailers need to cut wages in order to pay for it, they would already have done so in Scotland.

I think that the SNP fear that the extra coats in wages to retailers in England and Wales will be absorbed by Scottish workers also, in a lowering of their wages.
But shops in England will only open for extended hours if it makes commercial sense so to do.

Who knows?  Tesco, for example, are losing money, and may try anything to try and recover, including extra hours at low rates of pay.
But that would only work if the extra hours improve their position - losing even more money by opening even longer makes no commercial sense.

Maybe, but that, apparently, is what Usdaw thinks, and the SNP seem to agree.
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Questions to Christians

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19117
  • Science is a tool.
Re: Sunday trading
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2015, 09:16:04 PM »

"Government plans to relax Sunday trading laws in England and Wales have been put on hold, after SNP opposition meant it faced defeat in the Commons.
The SNP had said it would vote against the changes amid fears it could drive down Scottish workers' wages."

Excellent.  The SNP has shown good sense

But the SNP are not doing it to support superstition and belief in magic and fairies.
Fairies have got nothing to do with Sunday opening.

You're allowed to open Harrowby towers gift and Estate farm shop anyway. Why so grumpy?
wwaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrgggghhhhhh.......I FEAST on Sh*te New Atheist argument.

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11815
Re: Sunday trading
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2015, 09:31:33 PM »
If we assume that the number and location of major supermarkets is planned in relation to local population demand, as is the undoubtedly the case both in Scotland and in England & Wales, then bearing in mind that there have been no Sunday trading restrictions for years here it is the case that where I live there are now more larger supermarkets than 5 years ago - a large Waitrose has just opened that is with a mile or so of large Asda and Tesco supermarkets and they all open as normal on Sundays.

This seems to go against the idea that extended Sunday opening somehow isn't profitable since, if so, and since we are told premium pay rates apply in Scotland, then surely by now we'd have seen the major retailers operate reduced Sunday hours in their large supermarkets here in Scotland for commercial reasons - and they haven't.

For some reason extended Sunday opening oddly seems controversial in England & Wales, hence the previous threads on this, but normal here - so I'm suspicious that this is more about politics (both Usdaw and SNP) than it is about commercial concerns: I suspect this cost excuse is a red-herring. 

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19972
Re: Sunday trading
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2015, 09:44:19 PM »

I think that the SNP fear that the extra coats in wages to retailers in England and Wales will be absorbed by Scottish workers also, in a lowering of their wages.

But if there are extra costs, the retailers are already bearing them in Scotland. Why wouldn't they also bear them in England?
04W24W0W04100000W4 0000110W02000040100 0W00000000010100001 1W0011200010040040 000W1W3000000000000 0400000000000001004W
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may ap

Udayana

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3279
  • βε ηερε νοω
Re: Sunday trading
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2015, 09:45:49 PM »
...
But that would only work if the extra hours improve their position - losing even more money by opening even longer makes no commercial sense.

If they don't open longer and their competitors do, then they will lose more money than by opening longer. All the direct competitors need to cover similar hours otherwise some of their business will go to the competition.

People are not going to buy more stuff because the shops are open, but will change when or where they buy it. Thus longer hours mean higher costs for, essentially, the same income.

Still, there are plenty of supermarkets around that open 24 hours Mon-Sat, so presumably it can work commercially when you are keeping staff in, restocking and so forth anyway with customers increasingly using self-checkout systems.

Maybe they could all just raise their prices... ?
We didn't start the fire...

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25590
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Sunday trading
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2015, 07:56:44 AM »
They are doing it to protect the earnibgs of their voters who do work on Sundays.
So, they have been making some of the same arguments as groups such as the Keep Sunday Special Campaign have been since Thatcher introduced her original idea back in the 1980s.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25590
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Sunday trading
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2015, 08:04:06 AM »
The idea that wages would be driven down here in Scotland implies that Sunday trading UK-wide would be marginal profit-wise, and if introduced down south might generate losses due to premium Sunday wage rates. This seems odd to me, since based on anecdotal experience (mine) on a typical Sunday the local Tesco in Milngavie is fairly busy at 8.30am (it opens at 8am) and is still reasonably busy at 9.30pm (it closes at 10pm on Sundays).
Gordon, I think that there is another issue all tied up with this - online shopping.  It appears to be growing quite dramatically, year on year, thus putting pressure on 'High-Street'-based shopping.  Remember that the later have to pay Business Rates whilst purely online companies have a far lower BR burden.

(I've just started a new thread on this latter matter)
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools