Author Topic: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!  (Read 4416 times)

Hope

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2015, 11:39:13 AM »
Anything that's part of nature is by definition within the scope of scientific investigation. Anything posited as being outside of that - i.e. the supernatural - may as well be called ghostly.
Not true, Shakes.  There are things that are part and parcel of daily life that are not really within the scope of scientific investigation.  For intance, the idea of beauty.  I accept that scientific investigation can come up with generalized patterns of understanding this, but I'm not aware of any way in which science can explain let alone predict what individuals will regard as beautiful or not.
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ippy

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2015, 11:40:04 AM »
Do you have any evidence for that suggestion, Floo?

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ippy.

Hope

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2015, 11:44:49 AM »
We have evidence of of these things happening naturally, so that is the default position.
Sorry, BR, but neither Floo nor you have any evidence for the comment that Floo made in this particular situation.  At the same time, doi you actually have evidence that 'natural' events haven't been influenced by other things such as prayer, the biofield, or whatever?  As far as I am aware, educated to some degree by comments made by folk here, there is often no scientific investigative explanation for the 'natural' events which, if Shakes definition of something being part of nature is correct, there has to be.
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Hope

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2015, 11:46:40 AM »
"Here WE Go Again Happy As Can Be"

ippy.
Yup, since you have never been able to provide any scientific evidence for certain outcomes that - if Shakes is to be believed - there necessarily has to be.  Can you change that habit of a lifetime?
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ippy

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2015, 11:59:24 AM »
Yup, since you have never been able to provide any scientific evidence for certain outcomes that - if Shakes is to be believed - there necessarily has to be.  Can you change that habit of a lifetime?

Thus:

Can you change that habit of a lifetime?

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Ippy

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2015, 12:02:34 PM »


If the Pope's kiss can shrink things, then I assume he has kissed the brains of the atheists on this forum.    ;D
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Hope

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2015, 12:05:54 PM »
Thus:

Can you change that habit of a lifetime?

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Ippy
At least I try to use valid argumentation, ippy; not sure that you have quite as strong a grasp of the concept as many here  ;)
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Shaker

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2015, 12:06:34 PM »
At least I try to use valid argumentation, ippy
When?
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Outrider

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2015, 12:20:05 PM »
Not true, Shakes.  There are things that are part and parcel of daily life that are not really within the scope of scientific investigation.  For intance, the idea of beauty.

Psychology and neurology, possibly sociology to a degree as well, so far as concepts of beauty vary.

Quote
I accept that scientific investigation can come up with generalized patterns of understanding this, but I'm not aware of any way in which science can explain let alone predict what individuals will regard as beautiful or not.

That we're not at that level of achievement yet doesn't put the idea beyond science's remit, just beyond current capacity.

O.
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Outrider

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2015, 12:23:12 PM »
Sorry, BR, but neither Floo nor you have any evidence for the comment that Floo made in this particular situation.

Tumours have been known to spontaneously regress in other instances where Argentinian kisses were not administered. Why would we presume that this one event made a difference? Is it the Argentinian-ness or the celibacy, or the collection of novelty hats that gives it the healing effect?

Quote
At the same time, doi you actually have evidence that 'natural' events haven't been influenced by other things such as prayer, the biofield, or whatever?  As far as I am aware, educated to some degree by comments made by folk here, there is often no scientific investigative explanation for the 'natural' events which, if Shakes definition of something being part of nature is correct, there has to be.

No, there doesn't have to be, there are natural phenomena of which we currently don't know everything. As to evidence, yes, there is: experiments have been on conjectures of biofields, effects of intercessionary prayer and the like which have shown them to have no discernible effect.

O.
[/quote]
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ippy

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2015, 12:42:26 PM »
At least I try to use valid argumentation, ippy; not sure that you have quite as strong a grasp of the concept as many here  ;)

Why do you think because you believe in sky fairies, or the equivalent you happen to refer to as god Jesus etc, and all of the other dross that goes with these beliefs needs other people to prove to you or for you that these sky fairies, or however it is you would like them described, that can only live in your imagination, are in fact really there and not just figments of your imagination.

You're obviously not certain that these sky fairies or god figures really exist or you wouldn't be consistently asking for negative proof the amount of times you do, thus: 

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ippy

Sriram

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2015, 01:39:10 PM »


No, there doesn't have to be, there are natural phenomena of which we currently don't know everything. As to evidence, yes, there is: experiments have been on conjectures of biofields, effects of intercessionary prayer and the like which have shown them to have no discernible effect.

O.


The positive effects of prayer, meditation, faith,  positive thinking etc. have been documented.  Its all normally dismissed as placebo effect though no one has any idea what placebo actually is. 

The effects of the mind (which is related to the biofield) are actually well known....only thing is we keep saying....'the brain is remarkable and does all these marvelous things' ...and leave it at that!     

Floo

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2015, 01:43:48 PM »

The positive effects of prayer, meditation, faith,  positive thinking etc. have been documented.  Its all normally dismissed as placebo effect though no one has any idea what placebo actually is. 

The effects of the mind (which is related to the biofield) are actually well known....only thing is we keep saying....'the brain is remarkable and does all these marvelous things' ...and leave it at that!   

As it is unlikely any deity is listening to prayers, it can only be that from time to time the act of praying itself has a beneficial effect on the individual concerned, imo.
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Outrider

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2015, 02:10:54 PM »
The positive effects of prayer, meditation, faith,  positive thinking etc. have been documented.  Its all normally dismissed as placebo effect though no one has any idea what placebo actually is.

We have a very good idea what the placebo effect is, we just don't have a great understanding of all the ways in which it works. What we know about placebo is that if something is as effective as placebo it means that it makes absolutely no difference to the outcome.

Quote
The effects of the mind (which is related to the biofield) are actually well known....only thing is we keep saying....'the brain is remarkable and does all these marvelous things' ...and leave it at that!

The human body as a machine, of which the brain is an intrinsic part, is capable of many things. Biofields, as yet, have not been demonstrated. Prayer as a form of meditation or mindfulness has been shown to have a calming effect on the person praying, but intercessionary prayer or prayer for healing has been demonstrated to be ineffective.

O.
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Sriram

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2015, 02:11:22 PM »
As it is unlikely any deity is listening to prayers, it can only be that from time to time the act of praying itself has a beneficial effect on the individual concerned, imo.

What did you think I am saying?!

Floo

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2015, 02:16:23 PM »
What did you think I am saying?!

I don't always find your posts particularly easy to follow, probably because I am a senile old bat! ;D
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Sriram

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2015, 02:38:03 PM »
I don't always find your posts particularly easy to follow, probably because I am a senile old bat! ;D

I am not exactly a youngster myself! :)

Let me explain. The whole basis of spirituality is what you mentioned in your previous post. Prayer and faith (regardless of the deity) have an effect on our mind and biofield... which can cure certain illnesses (especially mental conditions), produce a happy state of mind and so on. 

This is the reason Hindus don't care who you pray to...as long as you pray.   Karma also works that way.  Its never about the intervention of a real God from somewhere high up in the sky.

Hope

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2015, 02:46:34 PM »
Tumours have been known to spontaneously regress in other instances where Argentinian kisses were not administered. Why would we presume that this one event made a difference? Is it the Argentinian-ness or the celibacy, or the collection of novelty hats that gives it the healing effect?
The problem with these so-called 'spontaneous regressions' is that they have no scientific explanations behind them, they are not - as far as anyone knows - repeatable, and we have no idea what other influences that might have been being brought to bear on the situations leading up to them.  As such, they do not fit any of the tidy patterns that science - in this case, medical - likes to develop. 

Quote
No, there doesn't have to be, there are natural phenomena of which we currently don't know everything. As to evidence, yes, there is: experiments have been on conjectures of biofields, effects of intercessionary prayer and the like which have shown them to have no discernible effect.
The problkem with that argument, O, is that all that you refer to is within the context of sceintific knowledge.  As I pointed out above, all the regressions/healings are outside that context.  Lest you forget, its folk like yourself who erect the parameters that limit the areas that science can deal with.  I happen to believe that those parameters are unrealistically limiting.
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Hope

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2015, 02:52:54 PM »
We have a very good idea what the placebo effect is, we just don't have a great understanding of all the ways in which it works. What we know about placebo is that if something is as effective as placebo it means that it makes absolutely no difference to the outcome.
No, all we have is a very good idea of what the placebo effect is within the confined context of scientific medicine.  What we don't have is an idea as to whether it can have an impact beyond those limits.

As for whether intercessionary prayer or prayer for healing has been demonstrated to be ineffective or not, we are not in a position to say because science doesn't have the mechanisms to measure that effectiveness.  All I will say here is that when medical science tells someone that they have x months to live and that there is nothing medical that can be done to help them, if they survive longer than that number of months and receive clean bills of health despite what the doctors say, there is something that science hasn't managed to come to terms with at play.
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Hope

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2015, 02:55:26 PM »
You're obviously not certain that these sky fairies or god figures really exist or you wouldn't be consistently asking for negative proof the amount of times you do, thus: 

"Here WE Go Again Happy As Can Be"

ippy
Except that, despite Shakes' insistence, I don't ask for negative proof.  Asking someone to provide evidence for an assertion, isn't the same as asking for negative proof.
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Floo

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #45 on: November 26, 2015, 03:00:39 PM »
I am not exactly a youngster myself! :)

Let me explain. The whole basis of spirituality is what you mentioned in your previous post. Prayer and faith (regardless of the deity) have an effect on our mind and biofield... which can cure certain illnesses (especially mental conditions), produce a happy state of mind and so on. 

This is the reason Hindus don't care who you pray to...as long as you pray.   Karma also works that way.  Its never about the intervention of a real God from somewhere high up in the sky.

Fair enough. :)
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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #46 on: November 26, 2015, 03:19:55 PM »
The problem with these so-called 'spontaneous regressions' is that they have no scientific explanations behind them, they are not - as far as anyone knows - repeatable, and we have no idea what other influences that might have been being brought to bear on the situations leading up to them.  As such, they do not fit any of the tidy patterns that science - in this case, medical - likes to develop.

Absolutely agree. The correct thing to do, therefore, is to say 'We don't know', not to say 'It must have been papal saliva!'.

Quote
The problem with that argument, O, is that all that you refer to is within the context of sceintific knowledge.  As I pointed out above, all the regressions/healings are outside that context.  Lest you forget, its folk like yourself who erect the parameters that limit the areas that science can deal with.  I happen to believe that those parameters are unrealistically limiting.

Spontaneous regression isn't making a scientific claim, it's saying that so far as we can see there's no obvious cause. When people make claims of other causes we can investigate scientifically and show that there is no reason to think those explanations are the case.

It might very well be special Christian magic done by the Pope, but in the absence of a mechanism, or any reliable way to determining why that time it worked and other times it doesn't, Papal magic is indistinguishable from 'we don't know', or from a placebo.

Spontaneous regression, as a phrase, isn't a presumption of a natural cause, it's an admission of 'we don't know'. To try to fit magical explanations in would be equally wrong.

O.
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Shaker

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #47 on: November 26, 2015, 04:12:59 PM »
Except that, despite Shakes' insistence, I don't ask for negative proof. Asking someone to provide evidence for an assertion, isn't the same as asking for negative proof.
Correct; the negative proof fallacy consists of either (1) taking X to be true or (2) considering X to be worth taking seriously or giving head-room to, in the absence of explicit counterevidence. (2) is your typical ploy.
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Hope

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #48 on: November 26, 2015, 05:26:24 PM »
Correct; the negative proof fallacy consists of either (1) taking X to be true or (2) considering X to be worth taking seriously or giving head-room to, in the absence of explicit counterevidence. (2) is your typical ploy.
So, you're imnto making up definitions now are you, Shakes (option 2)?

As for the reference to the NPF here, Floo made an assertion in post #2 - "The tumour would have shrunk anyway Pope kiss, or no Pope kiss, imo!"  OK, I accept that she hedged her bets by adding the 'imo', at the end.  Since you have taken up her cause, perhaps you can provide some evidence to support her assertion, or are you not too keen on making yourself look even more of an idiot than you have already.
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Hope

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Re: Pope's kiss shrinks tumor!
« Reply #49 on: November 26, 2015, 05:29:06 PM »
Absolutely agree. The correct thing to do, therefore, is to say 'We don't know', not to say 'It must have been papal saliva!'.
Point 1: I didn't say that it must have been papal saliva.  Point 2: I didn't say that it couldn't have been something beyond scientific understanding.
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