BBC Sports Personality 2015

[Hope]

Just announced, the SPOTY 2015 shortlist

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/sports-personality/34845334

Who will you be going for?

[Nearly Sane]

I won't be going for anyone, but I would favour Adam Peaty

[BashfulAnthony]

I won't be going for anyone, but I would favour Adam Peaty

Can't make my mind up:  Fury or Murray.

[Hope]

Can't make my mind up:  Fury or Murray.

Whilst I don't dismiss boxing, I find it something that I avoid as much as I can.  To me Fury is little more than glorified bag of hot air - so he's probably the last person I would vote for.

Bearing in mind that they were effectively counted out of sport this year following serious illness/injury, I'd probably go for Max Whitlock or Lizzie Armitstead, our perhaps our Jessica.

[BashfulAnthony]

Whilst I don't dismiss boxing, I find it something that I avoid as much as I can.  To me Fury is little more than glorified bag of hot air - so he's probably the last person I would vote for.

Bearing in mind that they were effectively counted out of sport this year following serious illness/injury, I'd probably go for Max Whitlock or Lizzie Armitstead, our perhaps our Jessica.

Anybody who can stand up to and defeat a fearsome guy like Klitchsko, who was unbeaten for eleven years, and who saw off some of the meanest guys around, has to be some hero.  More to him than hot air.   Remember, they said the same about Ali, at first.

[ProfessorDavey]

Anybody who can stand up to and defeat a fearsome guy like Klitchsko, who was unbeaten for eleven years, and who saw off some of the meanest guys around, has to be some hero.  More to him than hot air.   Remember, they said the same about Ali, at first.

There are a few people on that list who are repeat champions of the highest order (in other words championships Brits have rarely won) and I struggle to see beyond them. So Froome, Farah, Hamilton and Murray stand out for me - possibly Ennis and Rutherford, but I don't really see their achievements in quite the same category.

The rest I can't really see as being competitive.

For me it is between Froome and Hamilton. But of course this is always down to the vagaries of the public vote and on that  cycling seems to have done very well in 'getting the vote out' over the years.

[Hope]

... possibly Ennis and Rutherford, but I don't really see their achievements in quite the same category.

How many of the folk you mentioned have to master more than 1 or 2 disciplines let alone 7 very diverse ones - as Ennis competes in.  If anything, I'd suggest that the others don't come into the same category as she does.  Sadly, I suspect that the cloud that world athletics is currently under and the fact that she is a woman will conspire to deny her the acclaim she deserves.

[ProfessorDavey]

How many of the folk you mentioned have to master more than 1 or 2 disciplines let alone 7 very diverse ones - as Ennis competes in.  If anything, I'd suggest that the others don't come into the same category as she does.  Sadly, I suspect that the cloud that world athletics is currently under and the fact that she is a woman will conspire to deny her the acclaim she deserves.

Sure but then she is benchmarked against other athletes that likewise need to compete in all those disciplines. So although she is undoubtedly at the very top of the pile for a competition based on 7 disciplines I'm not sure she would be particularly competitive in any of them individually against athletes that specialise just in that discipline. So I'm not sure your point is really particularly relevant.

It would be a bit like saying a cricket all rounder is necessarily better than a specialist batsman or bowler simply because they are expected to do two things.

[Hope]

Sure but then she is benchmarked against other athletes that likewise need to compete in all those disciplines.

She may be benchmarked against similar athletes in athletic competition, but is she benchmarked against such athletes in this particular competition?

[Outrider]

Anybody who can stand up to and defeat a fearsome guy like Klitchsko, who was unbeaten for eleven years, and who saw off some of the meanest guys around, has to be some hero.  More to him than hot air.   Remember, they said the same about Ali, at first.

That's a reasonable achievement, but the others are the best in the world in their field - their achievement isn't any more or less significant. Djokovich, Federer and Nadal are, arguably, the three best tennis players that have EVER been, and Murray's ahead of two of them at the same time at the end of this year's rankings, and has taken Great Britain to a Davis Cup victory on top of that, having been near the top of the world rankings consistently for four or five years now.

Against that, one good fight from Fury doesn't stack up as much, and when you couple it to the fact that the man is a complete tool to boot I can't see him winning.

Hamilton has become Britain's joint top most successful driver but a) just being the best Briton doesn't necessarily mean much, and b) how much of his success is down to Mercedes' engineering. He's outstanding, but I'm not sure that he'd beat some of the others in the same car - Alonso, Button, Ricciardo, possibly even Verstappen.

Jessica Ennis-Hill is outstanding, but I'm not sure I remember her having done anything in particular this year - that may be my not following athletics particularly, though, rather than a comment on her achievements. Greg Rutherford's prolonged domination of his event has been reported, so he also stands in good standing for my vote.

For me though, the stand-out has been Froome. Not only has he continued to be at the peak of his field for a prolonged period, and achieved something that is rare amongst world competitors in his event (not just British), but he's done so whilst maintaining his temper and decorum under some pretty horrendous treatment, whereas most of the others have been pretty well supported throughout their achievements.

O.

O.

[ProfessorDavey]

She may be benchmarked against similar athletes in athletic competition, but is she benchmarked against such athletes in this particular competition?

Not sure what you mean.

Of course you can't directly compare Lewis Hamilton with Jessica Ennis - I suspect she would struggle to drive a F1 car and he would struggle to perform in a heptathlon. Same with Froome and Murray and any of the others.

The point is about their position within their own particular competition and then to compare with the others benchmarked against their own sport. So Hamilton is top, Froome, well he won the biggest flagship event, and for the second time in 3 years (and the intervening one he was injured) - and so on.

The suggestion that Ennis should be better because her chosen sport has 7 disciplines is pretty non-sense, as that's the sport she choses to participate in. I'm sure you can make similar claims for Froome - he has to do time trials, sprints, mountains and very long endurance stages. Murray plays on a range of different surfaces, and in both singles an doubles etc etc.

[Nearly Sane]

I think that Kevin Sinfield might be worth a bet. He has narrowed substantially lately and comes from a sport with a tightknit group of fans.
Tyson Furey has been drifting of late, presumably on the basis of the campaign against him because of his statements on homosexuality?

You would suspect that both Froome and Farah are such high odds because of the personal suspicion on drugs.

[ProfessorDavey]

That's a reasonable achievement, but the others are the best in the world in their field - their achievement isn't any more or less significant. Djokovich, Federer and Nadal are, arguably, the three best tennis players that have EVER been, and Murray's ahead of two of them at the same time at the end of this year's rankings, and has taken Great Britain to a Davis Cup victory on top of that, having been near the top of the world rankings consistently for four or five years now.

Against that, one good fight from Fury doesn't stack up as much, and when you couple it to the fact that the man is a complete tool to boot I can't see him winning.

Hamilton has become Britain's joint top most successful driver but a) just being the best Briton doesn't necessarily mean much, and b) how much of his success is down to Mercedes' engineering. He's outstanding, but I'm not sure that he'd beat some of the others in the same car - Alonso, Button, Ricciardo, possibly even Verstappen.

Jessica Ennis-Hill is outstanding, but I'm not sure I remember her having done anything in particular this year - that may be my not following athletics particularly, though, rather than a comment on her achievements. Greg Rutherford's prolonged domination of his event has been reported, so he also stands in good standing for my vote.

For me though, the stand-out has been Froome. Not only has he continued to be at the peak of his field for a prolonged period, and achieved something that is rare amongst world competitors in his event (not just British), but he's done so whilst maintaining his temper and decorum under some pretty horrendous treatment, whereas most of the others have been pretty well supported throughout their achievements.

O.

O.

Good critique.

Ennis won the world championship this year.

I agree with you on Froome, but I think Murray may get it even though he is demonstrably not the best in the world at his sport (unlike many of the others). I think the feat of winning the Davis cup for the first time for Britain in 80 years is a bit like the Wimbledon triumph, although actually I don't think it is anything like as competitive in tennis.

But it gives that kind of warm jingoistic glow which I suspect will set him apart in the eyes of many voters.

[ProfessorDavey]

I think that Kevin Sinfield might be worth a bet. He has narrowed substantially lately and comes from a sport with a tightknit group of fans.

Unless there is a very well planned, organised and concerted action from Rugby league fans then I don't think he stands a chance. Specifically because I think there will be vast swathes of the country who will never have even heard of him, as although he is a big name in rugby league he isn't a household name beyond that small world.

It is also much more difficult for someone in a team sport to win rather than an individual sport as it is much more difficult to separate the individual achievement from that of the team.

[Nearly Sane]

Unless there is a very well planned, organised and concerted action from Rugby league fans then I don't think he stands a chance. Specifically because I think there will be vast swathes of the country who will never have even heard of him, as although he is a big name in rugby league he isn't a household name beyond that small world.

It is also much more difficult for someone in a team sport to win rather than an individual sport as it is much more difficult to separate the individual achievement from that of the team.

Yes, I know that was what I was implying being seen as happening due to the narrowing in his odds.

[ProfessorDavey]

You would suspect that both Froome and Farah are such high odds because of the personal suspicion on drugs.

Careful now - I think the mods might want to take a view on that comment.

[ProfessorDavey]

Yes, I know that was what I was implying being seen as happening due to the narrowing in his odds.

I think there have only bee 2 team sport winners in the last 10 years (Flintoff in 2005, and Giggs in 2009), and I can't see Sinfield's achievement's in the broader public's eyes coming close to either of them.

[Nearly Sane]

I think there have only bee 2 team sport winners in the last 10 years (Flintoff in 2005, and Giggs in 2009), and I can't see Sinfield's achievement's in the broader public's eyes coming close to either of them.

And in part the idea that Giggs and AP MCCoy succeeded on was on the basis of concerted efforts by groups of supporters. I didn't say I thought Sinfield would win, but that he would be worth a bet given the narrowing odds. It looks to me that the bookies are aware that there is a campaign ongoing and that this could well lead to a further narrowing in future. At the very least this will give an opportunity to offlay the bet and take the effective arbitrage.

[Nearly Sane]

Careful now - I think the mods might want to take a view on that comment.

Then they would be wrong to do so. There are well documented suspicions about both athletes involving in drugs written about in the public sphere. The comment notes that and makes no comment on whether those suspicions have any validity.

[ProfessorDavey]

And in part the idea that Giggs and AP MCCoy succeeded on was on the basis of concerted efforts by groups of supporters. I didn't say I thought Sinfield would win, but that he would be worth a bet given the narrowing odds. It looks to me that the bookies are aware that there is a campaign ongoing and that this could well lead to a further narrowing in future. At the very least this will give an opportunity to offlay the bet and take the effective arbitrage.

Not sure about AP McCoy but I don't think you could claim Giggs was only worthy due to a concerted effort of a group of supporters. Giggs has been, arguably the most consistently world class British sports person of his generation -= bar none.

[Nearly Sane]

Not sure about AP McCoy but I don't think you could claim Giggs was only worthy due to a concerted effort of a group of supporters. Giggs has been, arguably the most consistently world class British sports person of his generation -= bar none.

Didn't say anything about him only being worthy because of that. Indeed specifically used the word ' in part' and no use of the word worthy.

At the time Giggs was a surprise on the last part of voting to the bookies because of what they argued was a concerted campaign.

[Hope]

Jessica Ennis-Hill is outstanding, but I'm not sure I remember her having done anything in particular this year - that may be my not following athletics particularly, though, rather than a comment on her achievements.

She has had time off (2 years iirc) initially for injury but more recently to look after her child.  The World title in the summer, that she won by a sizeable margin (in heptathlon terms) was her first full competition of any note since her return.  She therefore regained that particular crown, one she had previously won in 2009.

I can see your argument re. Froome, but remember that the support team at Sky is pretty large.

[ProfessorDavey]

Didn't say anything about him only being worthy because of that. Indeed specifically used the word ' in part' and no use of the word worthy.

At the time Giggs was a surprise on the last part of voting to the bookies because of what they argued was a concerted campaign.

I think Giggs was a kind of legacy award - people voted for him for the astonishing sustained level of achievement rather than a single great year. But I don't remember anything about a concerted campaign. I think people simply recognised he was most worthy of the bunch on offer.

[Outrider]

Not sure about AP McCoy but I don't think you could claim Giggs was only worthy due to a concerted effort of a group of supporters. Giggs has been, arguably the most consistently world class British sports person of his generation -= bar none.

You could make the argument, though, that Giggs should have failed to qualify under that Trades Descriptions Act: Sports, yes, but personality? Really?

O.

[Outrider]

She has had time off (2 years iirc) initially for injury but more recently to look after her child.  The World title in the summer, that she won by a sizeable margin (in heptathlon terms) was her first full competition of any note since her return.  She therefore regained that particular crown, one she had previously won in 2009.

That might explain the lack of commentary That's a fair achievement in itself, coming back from that, but it's a double-edged sword as a situation: some will be complimentary that she's come back so quick, whilst others (not me, I hasten to add) will point out the 'sexism' of being impressed that she came back quickly from 'what is, after all, a perfectly natural act'...

I can see your argument re. Froome, but remember that the support team at Sky is pretty large.

It is, but it's equivalent to that of the other top teams, and (unlike in Hamilton's case) they can't be said to be doing the work for him, they're creating the environment in which he can. I'm presuming that Jessica Ennis-Hill and Greg Rutherford have support teams of their own that are relevant to their needs: if they needed more, the funding and organisation is there to provide it.

O.