Author Topic: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever  (Read 57254 times)

jeremyp

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #225 on: January 27, 2016, 12:38:01 PM »
Details, please.

I'm pagan and I'm wrong - You are not and you are right?


Your inability to present any documentary evidence that the gods you follow today have anything to do with any gods from the pre-Christian era speaks for itself.

In fact, modern paganism is largely an invention of the Victorians. There may be fragmentary traditions going back as far as the Saxons, but that's about it.
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Owlswing

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #226 on: January 27, 2016, 01:08:34 PM »
Your inability to present any documentary evidence that the gods you follow today have anything to do with any gods from the pre-Christian era speaks for itself.

In fact, modern paganism is largely an invention of the Victorians. There may be fragmentary traditions going back as far as the Saxons, but that's about it.

Jeremy P


By what right do you require that I justify my beliefs to you?

NS, in his post, mentions that
Quote
If we take the claim of gods in the 'true for me' approach, it is incorrect of Owlswing to argue consistency or thread through the ages for whatever he believes

but I have never claimed "consistency or thread through the ages" for what I believe; "what is true for me" does not mean that it is true for anyone else in the way that you, JP, are seeming to claim that your belief is right and mine wrong.

I do NOT claim that my belief is any more right than that of a devout Christian, whereas the devout Christian, and the devout Muslim, and the devout atheist insist that their way is right for everyone.

If you cannot accept this, tough, I am not going to doubt my belief just because of your sayso! And I do not have any reason to justify my beliefs to you and, equally, you have no right to demand that I do so in order to boost your ego so you can dance round the room in triumph!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

jeremyp

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #227 on: January 27, 2016, 01:11:37 PM »
Jeremy P


By what right do you require that I justify my beliefs to you?

I'm not asking you to justify your beliefs to me. I don't give a toss about your beliefs. I'm merely pointing out that your assertion way back in this thread that your gods predate the Christian one was incorrect.

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Owlswing

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #228 on: January 27, 2016, 01:19:22 PM »
I'm not asking you to justify your beliefs to me. I don't give a toss about your beliefs. I'm merely pointing out that your assertion way back in this thread that your gods predate the Christian one was incorrect.

Zeus was worshipped in 3,000 BC - you are wrong!

My gods predate Christianity - thanks to Christianity's murderous way with those who disagreed with or rejected it we have to worship them in a DIFFERENT way - this does not change the gods and goddesses themselves - you are wrong.

Now be man enough to admit it!

END OF!
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 01:23:18 PM by Owlswing »
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

jeremyp

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #229 on: January 27, 2016, 01:21:47 PM »
Zeus was worshipped in 3,000 BC - you are wrong!
END OF!

Is Zeus one of your gods?
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Owlswing

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #230 on: January 27, 2016, 01:24:25 PM »
Is Zeus one of your gods?

Yes!

Red the above and shut up! You are beginning to sound like another poster who seems to have a personal vendetta against pagans.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

jeremyp

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #231 on: January 27, 2016, 01:45:17 PM »
Yes!

Red the above and shut up! You are beginning to sound like another poster who seems to have a personal vendetta against pagans.

So you basically claim for yourself any god that was ever part of any non Abrahamic religion.

Bullshit.

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Rhiannon

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #232 on: January 27, 2016, 02:18:58 PM »
So you basically claim for yourself any god that was ever part of any non Abrahamic religion.

Bullshit.

No, modern pagans will often follow deities from a mix of pantheons, or choose an ancient pantheon to work with. There's no reason at all to believe Owlswing on this one.

In fact this mixing of deities from different places  has always been going on. There's archaeological evidence for it in abundance in this country from the Romano-British period, and much of the Christian church's understanding of Jesus Christ originated in the mind of a Hellenised Jew.

Owlswing

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #233 on: January 27, 2016, 04:23:40 PM »
No, modern pagans will often follow deities from a mix of pantheons, or choose an ancient pantheon to work with. There's no reason at all to believe Owlswing on this one.

In fact this mixing of deities from different places  has always been going on. There's archaeological evidence for it in abundance in this country from the Romano-British period, and much of the Christian church's understanding of Jesus Christ originated in the mind of a Hellenised Jew.

I truly hope that you meant to say "There's no reason at all to NOT believe Owlswing on this one."

Thanks for the back-up.

JeremyP seems to be another who thinks all about paganism, when, in fact, he knows fuck all about paganism.

As I said, as far as I am concerned my conversation with him on this is, under the present circumstances and with his present attitude of "I know it all and you know nothing" over.

I am just glad that your path is what it is or you, probably, would also be on the wrong end of his ignorance and arrogance.

Do you have any idea who JC's fourth Pagan is? He seems to be implying that she is posting currently.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

OH MY WORLD!

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #234 on: January 27, 2016, 04:33:53 PM »
Howdy-do Matty,
Actually I count five pagans now. The last one that comes to mind is a guy. You do know what a pagan religion is don't you?

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #235 on: January 27, 2016, 04:39:45 PM »
Hello and good day to the goats/hell bound club.Two scriptures for you.

  11 Then I was told, “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings.”

A scripture about you goats and also this quite interesting   2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. this is you the outer court.

 They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. The Holy City is symbolic of Gods people,and the 42 months better if you do not know.

 Meanwhile talk among yourselves,just remember you are another day near your day.I hope{not to much} you enjoy my post,salvation out of reach for most of you,but at least you can cross your fingers and hope evolution is true.  :)

  ~TW~
" Too bad all the people who know how to run the country are busy driving cabs/George Burns

Owlswing

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #236 on: January 27, 2016, 04:53:04 PM »
Hello and good day to the goats/hell bound club.Two scriptures for you.

  11 Then I was told, “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings.”

A scripture about you goats and also this quite interesting   2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. this is you the outer court.

 They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. The Holy City is symbolic of Gods people,and the 42 months better if you do not know.

 Meanwhile talk among yourselves,just remember you are another day near your day.I hope{not to much} you enjoy my post,salvation out of reach for most of you,but at least you can cross your fingers and hope evolution is true.  :)

  ~TW~

Yawn!

At least we have one person that we know, without a shadow of a doubt, is not the fourth or fifth Pagan!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Owlswing

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #237 on: January 27, 2016, 04:59:18 PM »
I truly hope that you meant to say "There's no reason at all to NOT believe Owlswing on this one."

Thanks for the back-up.

JeremyP seems to be another who thinks all about paganism, when, in fact, he knows fuck all about paganism.

As I said, as far as I am concerned my conversation with him on this is, under the present circumstances and with his present attitude of "I know it all and you know nothing" over.

I am just glad that your path is what it is or you, probably, would also be on the wrong end of his ignorance and arrogance.

Do you have any idea who JC's fourth Pagan is? He seems to be implying that she is posting currently.

See  #234 - JC clearly is stating that anyone posting here who is not Christian, Jewish or Muslim is a pagan!

Whilst I have posted that at the time of Christianty's beginning all other religions were classified as pagan I would consider that over the last 2,000 years things have changed and although the case, may still apply I would doubt if Hindus, Sikhs etc would consider themselves pagan, though I do have one aquaintence who is Sikh and is quite happy to be so classified if it distances him from Christianity.

The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #238 on: January 27, 2016, 04:59:27 PM »
Matty,
So you go for that creation story in Greek mythology? How about Zeus' father eating all his babies but Zeus and then puking them out as adults?

Shaker

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #239 on: January 27, 2016, 05:07:07 PM »
Howdy-do Matty,
Actually I count five pagans now. The last one that comes to mind is a guy. You do know what a pagan religion is don't you?
He has a vastly better idea than you ever will.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #240 on: January 27, 2016, 05:09:18 PM »
See  #234 - JC clearly is stating that anyone posting here who is not Christian, Jewish or Muslim is a pagan!

Whilst I have posted that at the time of Christianty's beginning all other religions were classified as pagan I would consider that over the last 2,000 years things have changed and although the case, may still apply I would doubt if Hindus, Sikhs etc would consider themselves pagan, though I do have one aquaintence who is Sikh and is quite happy to be so classified if it distances him from Christianity.
there are more than 5 atheists posting so how does his statement in 234 cover anyone who isn't Jewish, Christian or Muslim?


To help out though my guess is that the 4th poster is Gabriella - I doubt JC regards Muslims as anything other than pagan moon worshippers and, the newly anointed fifth is Sriram.

Bubbles

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #241 on: January 27, 2016, 05:16:48 PM »
Howdy-do Matty,
Actually I count five pagans now. The last one that comes to mind is a guy. You do know what a pagan religion is don't you?

Rhiannon
Owlswing
horsethorn

And shaker?  :o

Owlswing

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #242 on: January 27, 2016, 05:21:44 PM »

There are more than 5 atheists posting so how does his statement in 234 cover anyone who isn't Jewish, Christian or Muslim?


Please NS, do not try to be less intelligent than you really are. Atheism, to my mind anyway, never has been and never will be, a religion. Judaism, Chritianity and Islam are.

Quote

To help out though my guess is that the 4th poster is Gabriella - I doubt JC regards Muslims as anything other than pagan moon worshippers and, the newly anointed fifth is Sriram.


Gabriella, as a Muslim is, by the definition given, not a pagan and would not be to anyone that I can think of. Not even JC (I hope).

Sririam, hmm, I am not sure what Sririams's religion is, but as he may be Hindu or Sikh, JC may classify him as pagan but I would rather get Sririam's views on the subject. I am sure that I have read somewhere that Sikhism began in (about) the 15th century so would not be included in those classified as being religions in existence at the commencement of the Christian era and therefore probably not strictly classified as pagan, despite my friend's comment on the subject.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Shaker

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #243 on: January 27, 2016, 05:23:00 PM »
Rhiannon
Owlswing
horsethorn

And shaker?  :o
Shaker isn't one.

I really wish people would stop feeding this clown with the attention he craves.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Owlswing

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #244 on: January 27, 2016, 05:23:29 PM »
Rhiannon
Owlswing
horsethorn

And shaker?  :o

Shaker has posted an interest in the details of pagan belief but has denied that he IS a pagan. I tend to believe him.

JC is playing games.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Shaker

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #245 on: January 27, 2016, 05:26:43 PM »
Shaker has posted an interest in the details of pagan belief but has denied that he IS a pagan. I tend to believe him.
No question that I'm very interested in the subject and have been for many years; furthermore, that I'm sympathetic to it and if for any reason I had to choose a religion, would go in that direction. I just don't see that I do anything that would class me as one, that's all.

Quote
JC is playing games.
Indeed.

He's certainly not here for the conversation.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 05:30:29 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #246 on: January 27, 2016, 05:33:17 PM »
Please NS, do not try to be less intelligent than you really are. Atheism, to my mind anyway, never has been and never will be, a religion. Judaism, Chritianity and Islam are.

Gabriella, as a Muslim is, by the definition given, not a pagan and would not be to anyone that I can think of. Not even JC (I hope).

Sririam, hmm, I am not sure what Sririams's religion is, but as he may be Hindu or Sikh, JC may classify him as pagan but I would rather get Sririam's views on the subject. I am sure that I have read somewhere that Sikhism began in (about) the 15th century so would not be included in those classified as being religions in existence at the commencement of the Christian era and therefore probably not strictly classified as pagan, despite my friend's comment on the subject.

If you classify people who are not Muslim, Jewish of Christian as pagan, then that includes atheists. It's just my pedantry showing. And on your qualification of your classification, where are you putting Buddhists?


Whether Sriram is a Sikh or Hindu is surely irrelevant, by your classification, he's pagan and I suspect by JCs.


I am sure that you wouldn't classify Gabriella's as a pagan but I am guessing by JCs view which is what we are talking about, she is.

Samuel

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #247 on: January 27, 2016, 05:48:10 PM »
Hello and good day to the goats/hell bound club.

Not me, I'm definitely going to heaven
A lot of people don't believe that the loch ness monster exists. Now, I don't know anything about zooology, biology, geology, herpetology, evolutionary theory, evolutionary biology, marine biology, cryptozoology, palaeontology or archaeology... but I think... what if a dinosaur got into the lake?

Owlswing

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #248 on: January 27, 2016, 05:59:11 PM »
If you classify people who are not Muslim, Jewish of Christian as pagan, then that includes atheists. It's just my pedantry showing. And on your qualification of your classification, where are you putting Buddhists?


Whether Sriram is a Sikh or Hindu is surely irrelevant, by your classification, he's pagan and I suspect by JCs.


I am sure that you wouldn't classify Gabriella's as a pagan but I am guessing by JCs view which is what we are talking about, she is.

You keep your pedantry and I will keep my lack of it.

I have said, and I stand by it, that I consider ONLY religions that existed at the inception of Christianity to be classified as pagan., but this is, in the end, only my definition.

If religions that have come into being since Christianity's incept choose to define themselves as pagan religions then that is their choice, but I have yet to see any post-chritianity's inception religion that has so defined themselves.

Atheism is not, so far as I am aware, a religion and, even if it were, it cannot claim to be pagan by my definition stated above - what you call it is up to you.

Buddhism - see http://www.buddhanet.net/nutshell03.htm

Buddhism in a Nutshell

Is it a religion?

It is neither a religion in the sense in which that word is commonly understood, for it is not "a system of faith and worship owing any allegiance to a supernatural being."

This article is well worth a serious read.

Therefore 'no' Buddhism is not a pagan religion or any other religious classification.

I would say however that, as practices in Australia, Buddyism is very definitely a religion, a religion whose God is BEER! Beer in any shape or form but preferrably lager and in abso-bloody-lutely vast quantities. It is, in all probablily, the most ardently followed religion anywhere in the world.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Owlswing

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Re: Death Hell Problems stalk the unbeliever
« Reply #249 on: January 27, 2016, 06:03:11 PM »
Not me, I'm definitely going to heaven

Baaaaa!

Sorry - wrong post!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!