Author Topic: Are Labour Dead In The Water?  (Read 26877 times)

jeremyp

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #175 on: February 08, 2016, 10:28:34 AM »
Who is truer to the political ideals and principles that the Labour Party* was founded upon, Corbyn or the rabble of Tory-lite malcontents against him who don't even belong in the party in the first place? There's no "tearing apart," only the disaffection of clueless Thatcherites terminally confused about which party they should be in.

* ("I joined the Labour Party, not the New Labour Party." - Tony Benn).
You can applaud his ideals whilst also being critical of his leadership capabilities. It's obvious that those are sadly lacking.
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Nearly Sane

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jakswan

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #177 on: March 14, 2016, 10:02:36 AM »
Interesting analysis


http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/03/13/the-conservatives-have-been-the-biggest-borrowers-over-the-last-70-years/

LOL 'we'll on borrow to invest' and they will then spin invest to cover education, NHS, etc.

Not accurate analysis, you would have to break down New Labour, who had a good record on borrowing but got caught out at the end. Old Labour not so much.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
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jakswan

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #178 on: March 14, 2016, 11:12:59 AM »
I'm seeing news that Vicky Kirby is back, she was kicked out of Labour after tweeting that Hitler was a Zionist God.

This and Livingston latest stunt with regard to Dan Jarvis underlines the hard left can be as horrible as the hard right.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
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Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #179 on: March 14, 2016, 11:29:49 AM »
Not to mention that whining trouble maker Mark Serwotka. He and his chums turned the Public & Commercial Services Union into a bastion of the hard left, make no mistake they will happily apply the same tactics with the Labour Party.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #180 on: March 14, 2016, 11:40:12 AM »
LOL 'we'll on borrow to invest' and they will then spin invest to cover education, NHS, etc.

Not accurate analysis, you would have to break down New Labour, who had a good record on borrowing but got caught out at the end. Old Labour not so much.
Your first line is a non sequitur to the methodology in the paper. You need to expand as it isn't  saying anything about reasons for borrowing in the paper just the amount itself.

Second point,  choosing different selections of time does not making analysis inaccurate, and the paper itself seek to give the Tories a break by removing the last six years and it still doesn't work out for them.


jakswan

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #181 on: March 14, 2016, 12:38:32 PM »
Your first line is a non sequitur to the methodology in the paper. You need to expand as it isn't  saying anything about reasons for borrowing in the paper just the amount itself.

I was referring to Shadow Chancellor speech on fiscal responsibility, which was political posturing, a lot of rhetoric and no substance.

Quote
Second point,  choosing different selections of time does not making analysis inaccurate, and the paper itself seek to give the Tories a break by removing the last six years and it still doesn't work out for them.

The point your article attempts to make is that we should believe a Corbyn Labour Gvt. would deal with the deficit. I don't believe that, I listened to the Shadow Chancellor on Marr and I found him unconvincing.

I watched on Seema Malhotra on Sunday Politics and her evasion almost matched the legendary Micheal Howard - Paxman interview.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
- Voltaire

Nearly Sane

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #182 on: March 14, 2016, 01:00:41 PM »
I was referring to Shadow Chancellor speech on fiscal responsibility, which was political posturing, a lot of rhetoric and no substance.

The point your article attempts to make is that we should believe a Corbyn Labour Gvt. would deal with the deficit. I don't believe that, I listened to the Shadow Chancellor on Marr and I found him unconvincing.

I watched on Seema Malhotra on Sunday Politics and her evasion almost matched the legendary Micheal Howard - Paxman interview.

So the actual analysis is fine, and when you called it inaccurate you were just being unclear because you are having an argument that isn't been made by me or the person who did the blog.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #183 on: March 14, 2016, 04:01:21 PM »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #184 on: March 14, 2016, 06:59:34 PM »
Not to mention that whining trouble maker Mark Serwotka. He and his chums turned the Public & Commercial Services Union into a bastion of the hard left, make no mistake they will happily apply the same tactics with the Labour Party.
Your party is in meltdown Humph.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #185 on: March 14, 2016, 07:02:16 PM »
I was referring to Shadow Chancellor speech on fiscal responsibility, which was political posturing, a lot of rhetoric and no substance.

The point your article attempts to make is that we should believe a Corbyn Labour Gvt. would deal with the deficit. I don't believe that, I listened to the Shadow Chancellor on Marr and I found him unconvincing.

I watched on Seema Malhotra on Sunday Politics and her evasion almost matched the legendary Micheal Howard - Paxman interview.
Your party is in meltdown Jak and has just degenerated into a cock comparison.

jakswan

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #186 on: March 14, 2016, 10:23:00 PM »
Your party is in meltdown Jak and has just degenerated into a cock comparison.

My party was the LibDems but afraid we have different views on the EU. Currently I'm a free agent.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
- Voltaire

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #187 on: March 15, 2016, 06:50:20 AM »
My party was the LibDems but afraid we have different views on the EU. Currently I'm a free agent.

Similar here although we had different views on SSM.

jakswan

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #188 on: March 15, 2016, 09:20:03 AM »
So the actual analysis is fine, and when you called it inaccurate you were just being unclear because you are having an argument that isn't been made by me or the person who did the blog.

From the blog "it was known that Labour always borrowed more than the Conservatives and that was why the electorate could not trust them with the economy. I knew that evidence I had prepared a year ago did not support that view in recent years (post 1997)"

The purpose of the article, I assumed, was intended to refute the notion that Labour cannot be trusted in future with the economy, it mentions John McDonnell’s new fiscal rule.

If that isn't the conclusion you'd like us to draw from that article in a thread about Labour what other reason did you have for posting it.

I stand corrected the analysis isn't flawed the conclusion is; prior to 1997 the economy was in a regular boom and bust cycle. As I recall Brown became convinced that this cycle was over and allowed the deficit to grow from 2002 to 2008.

Eventually in the crash we were staring at 10% deficit relative to GDP, the highest is has ever been in modern times.

So the premise of the article 'Labour always borrowed more than the Conservatives and that was why the electorate could not trust them with the economy' isn't true, I think the electorate didn't Miliband with the economy because he was seen as weak on fixing the deficit.

I think the electorate would not trust Corbyn on the economy because of his ideology. 
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
- Voltaire

Jack Knave

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #189 on: March 15, 2016, 07:19:28 PM »
My party was the LibDems but afraid we have different views on the EU. Currently I'm a free agent.
Wow!!!

How many named or well known LibDems are for Leave? I can't think of any.

Have you had a word with the Queen yet?

Nearly Sane

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wigginhall

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #191 on: March 18, 2016, 11:30:18 AM »
Calling it a massive boost for Corbyn is barmy.   You would expect Labour to move up, considering the Tory turmoil over the EU, plus more of Osborne's creative accounting.   But Miliband got good polls, I think.  But I guess that the Blairites will be thrawn.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #192 on: March 18, 2016, 11:40:49 AM »
Calling it a massive boost for Corbyn is barmy.   You would expect Labour to move up, considering the Tory turmoil over the EU, plus more of Osborne's creative accounting.   But Miliband got good polls, I think.  But I guess that the Blairites will be thrawn.
Indeed - at this stage in the parliament you would expect the opposition to have a sizeable and consistent lead if they are to have a reasonable prospect of winning the next general election.

wigginhall

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #193 on: March 18, 2016, 11:45:17 AM »
But I think it may inhibit any plotting against Corbyn, if there is such a thing.   I thought he gave a good speech on the budget, quite fiery.   But then Osborne currently is an open goal.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #194 on: March 18, 2016, 11:50:43 AM »
Indeed - at this stage in the parliament you would expect the opposition to have a sizeable and consistent lead if they are to have a reasonable prospect of winning the next general election.
10 Months into a 5 year parliament? That would posit that to have a reasonable prospect of winning an opposition would have to move into a sizeable lead after about 6 months of a parliament? I would have thought that it generally takes about a year to make up the gap that the actual election shows, never mind move into a substantial lead.

wigginhall

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #195 on: March 18, 2016, 11:54:13 AM »
I think there were some pundits, usually right-wing Labour, predicting that Labour would sink to the 20s in the polls under Corbyn.  Of course, they may still do that, but I thought that the Oldham by-election showed that people will vote Labour under Corbyn.  But then the Tories resemble a drunken brothel at the moment, all cocks going nowhere, so they are a soft target.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #196 on: March 18, 2016, 12:02:10 PM »
I think there were some pundits, usually right-wing Labour, predicting that Labour would sink to the 20s in the polls under Corbyn.  Of course, they may still do that
They already have - 4 of the last 16 polls have had Labour in the 20s with another 5 having them on just 30. And they have been regularly polling below 30 since Corbyn became leader.

jeremyp

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #197 on: March 18, 2016, 12:15:20 PM »
They already have - 4 of the last 16 polls have had Labour in the 20s with another 5 having them on just 30. And they have been regularly polling below 30 since Corbyn became leader.
Which is astonishing when you look at what this Conservative government is doing to the educational system and the NHS.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #198 on: March 18, 2016, 01:55:46 PM »
Which is astonishing when you look at what this Conservative government is doing to the educational system and the NHS.
They aren't doing to great either - but just shows you how useless Corbyn is as leader of the opposition.

Jack Knave

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #199 on: March 18, 2016, 07:31:51 PM »
Are the Tories dead in the water? Which fish looks more alive? or will do in 2020, as they fight themselves into a cloud of dust.