Brussels

[jeremyp]

I only believe in one


'In every generation there is a Chosen One. She alone will stand against the vampires, the demons, and the forces of darkness. She is the Slayer.'

Except that, as you know, by the end of the last episode there were hundreds of slayers.

[Bubbles]

In a way, it is a part of us. ( human race)

It's not just religion, what about that airline pilot that locked out the other pilot from the cockpit and flew the plane deliberately into a mountain killing everyone on board?

Or the man who walks into a school and shoots the children, then shoots himself.

Or that Nazi nutter who shot 77 people in Norway.

Sometimes people find someone else to share their cause with.

This one in Brussels, is a shared one.

They are not doing it because they don't know what they are doing, they know.

It's a cause, no different to the man shooting children in a school.

It's a nasty part of humanity, and it's not confined to religion.

The cause can be anything, including an issue with authority.

It's people with a disrespect for the lives of other people.

They act it out, when it's shared, they look to the approval of their peers, and unfortunately there are always those cheering on from a safe distance.

We have had murderers in the uk on the run from the police, who have shot people, and they to get cheered on in the sense of being seen as a hero by certain elements.

That Moat bloke had his peers, who wanted him to hurt the police and supported a sort of anarchy.

[Nearly Sane]

Then the good is just part of us as well.

[Bubbles]

Then the good is just part of us as well.

Yes, like Rhiannon says, just as well there is.

Dreadful things like this sometimes bring out the good side in people, they rally around helping the victims in any way they can.

🌹

[Hope]

Two reasons.

1) Evolution has produced social species which instinctively fight for survival.

I'm not sure that this even comes close to what is happening with Diash/IS.  They seem happy to have people go into situations and deliberately destroy themselves (so seeming to contradict the idea of 'instinctively fight(ing) for survival').  Could it indicate a form of evolutionary entropy?

[Hope]

So it is just human nature and this could have been done by anyone and happened anywhere oh, and I thought their country was Belgium, or France, or Great Britain, where they have education and money and have not been given guns.

JP, whilst this particular group of 3, 2 of whom 'gave their lives to the cause' don't appear to have had any experience of life in Daish-run Syria or wherever, it does seem as though a large number of Belgian Muslims have travelled there (some 800, iirc) and perhaps 200 have then returned to Europe.  The vast majority of these returnees will have been primed to act against the West in some way at some time (sleeper cells).

One also has to remember that, Belgium has not treated its Muslim population well.  The Muslim 'quarter' where Salah Abdeslam hid for 4 months before being arrested on Friday is - by all accounts - a pretty grim place to live.

Even the gloating from the Belgian 'Interior'(?) minister following the arrest - 'We got him' (reminiscent of the American jingoism following to discovery of Saddam Hussain in a culvert or whatever) is pretty insensitive.

[Hope]

That nicely encapsulates the kind of sick thinking that religious superstitions can indoctrinate people's minds with.

And not only religion, LJ.  The same sentiment can be applied to Maoism/Stalinism/'Pol Pot'ism/etc.

As such, it seems to be a condition that is common to humanity whatever their philosophical outlook on life, which suggests that it is not directly linked to any given belief-system.

[ProfessorDavey]

It's not just religion, what about that airline pilot that locked out the other pilot from the cockpit and flew the plane deliberately into a mountain killing everyone on board?

Or the man who walks into a school and shoots the children, then shoots himself.

Or that Nazi nutter who shot 77 people in Norway.

Sometimes people find someone else to share their cause with.

I disagree - what happened in Brussels is entirely different to the examples you gave.

What 'cause' was the plane pilot fighting for - I thought he was ill and suffering from depression and mental illness.

What 'cause' is the lone gunman perpetrating a shooting in a school fighting for - an individual deeply disturbed and often angry man, but there is no 'cause'.

The lone Nazi nutter is perhaps the nearest to having a 'cause' but in his case there was no orchestrated and concerted plan of attacks perpetrated by an organised group trying to impose their ideological views on others.

Sure all your cases involve multiple murder, but that doesn't mean they are all the same. The key difference with Brussels is it is ideologically driven and part of an orchestrated campaign.

[Hope]

True Islam- "So be not weak and ask for peace, while you are having the upper hand. Allah is with you, and will never decrease the rewards of your good deeds."   Quran 47:35

Good to see you cherry-picking 'verses'/sections from the Quran, OMW. 

[Shaker]

Good to see you cherry-picking 'verses'/sections from the Quran, OMW.

It's a religion thing.

[Gordon]

As such, it seems to be a condition that is common to humanity whatever their philosophical outlook on life, which suggests that it is not directly linked to any given belief-system.

Recent history in relation to terrorism does seem to indicate that there is a link to a certain religion, as opposed to religions in general, even if these activities are viewed as being dysfunctional interpretations of the relevant religion.

What we aren't seeing is terrorism related to Buddhism or Mormonism, so that whatever the solutions are (if there are any) that would lead to an end of IS terrorism it surely has to involve mainstream Islam which is, just like Christianity, a mix of different strands.

[JP]

One also has to remember that, Belgium has not treated its Muslim population well.  The Muslim 'quarter' where Salah Abdeslam hid for 4 months before being arrested on Friday is - by all accounts - a pretty grim place to live.

No of course not, just as I have seen the argument that Britain does not treat Muslims well as we are a nation or racists and Islamophobes. What is this bad treatment in Belgium? Are they denied access to the labour market, healthcare, education, freedom of choice, movement, religion and so on and so forth. Perhaps it is a pretty grim place because of the way they choose to be, separate and insular.

Even the gloating from the Belgian 'Interior'(?) minister following the arrest - 'We got him' (reminiscent of the American jingoism following to discovery of Saddam Hussain in a culvert or whatever) is pretty insensitive.

Yes, how insensitive of him expressing this after catching someone involved in mass murder. He really needs to consider the feelings of others, no wonder those minorities feel the way they do.

I have just read this again and had to laugh at the "pretty insensitive" bit. What a twat he is.  I hope he resigns, beats himself with a wet fish, gets on his knees and apologises

[JP]

And not only religion, LJ.  The same sentiment can be applied to Maoism/Stalinism/'Pol Pot'ism/etc.

As such, it seems to be a condition that is common to humanity whatever their philosophical outlook on life, which suggests that it is not directly linked to any given belief-system.

All of which have come and gone in a few decades, unfortunately unlike religion, especially the one where these people draw their inspiration from which is the direct word of "God" given to the best example of humanity.

[Bubbles]

I disagree - what happened in Brussels is entirely different to the examples you gave.

What 'cause' was the plane pilot fighting for - I thought he was ill and suffering from depression and mental illness.

What 'cause' is the lone gunman perpetrating a shooting in a school fighting for - an individual deeply disturbed and often angry man, but there is no 'cause'.

The lone Nazi nutter is perhaps the nearest to having a 'cause' but in his case there was no orchestrated and concerted plan of attacks perpetrated by an organised group trying to impose their ideological views on others.

Sure all your cases involve multiple murder, but that doesn't mean they are all the same. The key difference with Brussels is it is ideologically driven and part of an orchestrated campaign.

They have some things in common IMO


This is the profile of a terrorist

"Horgan found that people who are more open to terrorist recruitment and radicalization tend to:
Feel angry, alienated or disenfranchised. Believe that their current political involvement does not give them the power to effect real change. Identify with perceived victims of the social injustice they are fighting. Feel the need to take action rather than just talking about the problem. Believe that engaging in violence against the state is not immoral. Have friends or family sympathetic to the cause. Believe that joining a movement offers social and psychological rewards such as adventure, camaraderie and a heightened sense of identity."
http://www.apa.org/monitor/2009/11/terrorism.aspx


This of mass murderers in this case shooters

"As my colleagues Mark Coulson, Jane Barnett and I noted in a 2011 article in the Journal of Police Crisis Negotiations, school shooters have generally been found to 1) have a history of antisocial-personality traits, 2) suffer from mental illnesses such as depression or psychosis and 3) tend to obsess about how others, whether other individuals or society at large, have wronged them. (These conclusions are similar to the findings of a 2002 U.S. Secret Service report on school shootings.) These individuals seethe with rage and hatred and despondency, until they decide to lash out at individuals or a society they believe has done them great wrong.

http://ideas.time.com/2012/12/15/sandy-hook-shooting-why-did-lanza-target-a-school/
"
The cause is, in some ways to be noticed.

[JP]

I see we are hand wringing again, reflecting, lighting candles and mourning.

Le suis Charlie, Je suis Paris, Je suis Brussels, Je suis [enter name here]

[Bubbles]

I see we are hand wringing again, reflecting, lighting candles and mourning.

Le suis Charlie, Je suis Paris, Je suis Brussels, Je suis [enter name here]

What would you suggest instead?

[Bubbles]

If one person believes in a talking donkey or that wine and bread turn into the blood and flesh of a person, they are considered nuts.

If large numbers of people believe it, it is considered ok.

So who is the nut? And who isn't?

And why are beliefs that are considered " barmy" when held by one person ( as a form of mental illness) is considered perfectly rational when held by lots of people?

Is someone who dances with fairies at the bottom of the garden any more potty than someone who takes communion and believes it transforms?

A cause can be held by an individual, just like it can for a group. It's just that a group is self validating.

An individual can feel just as angry and vengeful or want to end it all with a Big Bang and lots of publicity, just like a group of people.

I'm not convinced there is always such a big difference.

[Shaker]

If one person believes in a talking donkey or that wine and bread turn into the blood and flesh of a person, they are considered nuts.

If large numbers of people believe it, it is considered ok.

So who is the nut? And who isn't?

And why are beliefs that are considered " barmy" when held by one person ( as a form of mental illness) is considered perfectly rational when held by lots of people?

Who says that that's the case?

[Bubbles]

No matter how awful the crime, some people jump in to support it.

Often it's a rebellion against society and authority.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/inside-the-mind-of-a-murderer/

I still think that the " cause" of this individual above has similarities to a terrorist, in this case an Islamic terrorist.

Both felt angry at a society / authority and reacted with violence, both have supporters that cheered them on, from the background.

[Rhiannon]

Has there ever been a time when we haven't done this? No. It's part of who we are.

One day far in the future archaeologists will dig up mass graves in Syria and marvel at the utterly depraved barbarity of humanity in the past. And at the same time someone somewhere on the planet will be doing pretty much the same thing. We do t change.

[Bubbles]

Who says that that's the case?

Me.

I notice that it's ok to think we are really Orgrons from planet Sprog, dreaming about the earth and bowing to the sun every morning if lots of people think it.

But if it's just you, then people might cart you off with a straight jacket if you wandered around your local town centre harassing people.

Do it in a group though, and it's ok.

Have you not noticed that some religious people think it's ok to believe in the incredible if you belong to a group ( mostly theirs) , but not if you are a freethinker? 

IMO too many people just follow others, I think it's why atrocities happen 

The downside too is that because these terrorists are a group, anything goes.

[Shaker]

Me.

Your stance is not shared.

[Bubbles]

Your stance is not shared.

That's ok.

It's allowed 

🌹

[Bubbles]

Interesting link from the Independent

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/is-there-really-any-difference-between-a-terrorist-and-an-ordinary-criminal-a6771716.html

[Bubbles]

I disagree - what happened in Brussels is entirely different to the examples you gave.

What 'cause' was the plane pilot fighting for - I thought he was ill and suffering from depression and mental illness.

What 'cause' is the lone gunman perpetrating a shooting in a school fighting for - an individual deeply disturbed and often angry man, but there is no 'cause'.

The lone Nazi nutter is perhaps the nearest to having a 'cause' but in his case there was no orchestrated and concerted plan of attacks perpetrated by an organised group trying to impose their ideological views on others.

Sure all your cases involve multiple murder, but that doesn't mean they are all the same. The key difference with Brussels is it is ideologically driven and part of an orchestrated campaign.

This link discusses two groups  in more detail

http://www.internetjournalofcriminology.com/smithj_the_criminal_and_the_terrorist_ijc_july_2012.pdf

This link is really interesting and it also goes into how sexual deviants can join terrorist groups to dominate women.

It's a horrible thought, but it can show why some people are drawn to such groups.

It allows them power to fulfil some of their base desires.

The link leads to a dissertation  which is quite long, but reveals a lot of interesting things about both terrorists and mass murderers.