Author Topic: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?  (Read 17585 times)

Owlswing

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Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2016, 02:12:29 PM »
The issue here has nothing to do with Christianity, it is a matter of "degendered" lavatories.

Quite frankly I would side with a female who does not want to change a tampon whilst separated from a male who wants to be a female, by only a small partition wall which reaches neither the floor, or the ceiling.

Bubbles

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2016, 02:18:17 PM »
Tbh it doesn't bother me.

A cubical is quite private.

I'm not sure I would go for same sex public toilets en masse, but I can cope with encountering the occasional person who is transgender.

It's like male toilet attendants in women's toilets , they exist too.

It is Christian because it is based on their claims that transgender is unnatural and not how God intended people to be.

That has its roots in their religious belief.

« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 02:21:54 PM by Rose »

Owlswing

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2016, 02:31:05 PM »
The issue here has nothing to do with Christianity, it is a matter of "degendered" lavatories.

Quite frankly I would side with a female who does not want to change a tampon whilst separated from a male who wants to be a female, by only a small partition wall which reaches neither the floor, or the ceiling.

Sorry Humph but is IS about Chritianity - the Christian God loves everyone - except homosexuals, transsexuals, lesbians, bi-sexuals, Jews, Muslims, children (he lets them get cancers and various other obscene diseases), the elderly (whose passing he can and in some cases does make a most unpleasant experience), he murders his followers and those who do not follow him indiscriminately with all kinds of "natural" disasters - "natural" dusaters which, if he is as all-powerful as Christians say he is, he could prevent!

Chritianity is not about who their God loves but who he does not and who he tells his followers not to love.
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wigginhall

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2016, 02:41:12 PM »
I think some Christians argue that gender (like sex) is instituted by God, and hence is inviolable.   I suppose this is common among Evangelicals, not sure about Catholics, although they have been more liberal about SSM.   By that, I mean grass roots Catholics, who in the US for example, are quite favourable to SSM. 

But I would also expect that attitudes will be liberalized more and more about trans, as it has been about gays.
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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2016, 02:48:04 PM »
Well another ranting attack on God and Christians from the angry witch. A witch that believes Zeus is a real god. And I have read the Greek myth on what Matty's God Zeus has done. YUK!! Now if he would take some anger management classes an read the New Testament, he just might stop his tantrums and constant BS posts. I doubt any post from a Christian is going to be considered respectfully by Matty. He is here to hate, and rant at the Christians, this is what his thread is for and nothing else.


Owlswing

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2016, 02:55:04 PM »
Well another ranting attack on God and Christians from the angry witch. A witch that believes Zeus is a real god. And I have read the Greek myth on what Matty's God Zeus has done. YUK!! Now if he would take some anger management classes an read the New Testament, he just might stop his tantrums and constant BS posts. I doubt any post from a Christian is going to be considered respectfully by Matty. He is here to hate, and rant at the Christians, this is what his thread is for and nothing else.

As I have said before - you are perfectly happy to rant against my beliefs - as in this post - but will whinge, whine, moan, complain, whimper and sneer and refuse to accept retaliation in kind!

Quit whinging and return to the real world from your Christian Cloud-Cuckoo-Land!

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Rhiannon

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2016, 03:21:24 PM »
A cafe in my local town has one lot of toilets* shared by both genders. Doesn't remotely bother me

* one room, two cubicles, two sinks.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 03:37:46 PM by Rhiannon »

wigginhall

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2016, 03:23:16 PM »
Our house has a shared toilet, strange, isn't it?
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Owlswing

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2016, 03:31:04 PM »

Our house has a shared toilet, strange, isn't it?


Unfortunately, you rather beautiful comment is irrelevant as only one person uses your home toilet at a time!

Nice try though! ;) ;) ;D 8)
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wigginhall

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2016, 03:33:25 PM »
Unfortunately, you rather beautiful comment is irrelevant as only one person uses your home toilet at a time!

Nice try though! ;) ;) ;D 8)

Hey, have you got CCTV installed here, or summat?   No peekin'!
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floo

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2016, 04:20:37 PM »
I have no problem with a transgender person using a female toilet cubical. However, I wouldn't like to use a uni-sex loo, where there were urinals as well as cubicals, as we had to do in France once.

The Christians who object to gays and transgender people are sickos and need therapy.

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2016, 04:29:19 PM »
If you have a penis then you change in the boys locker room for physical ed class, because you want to be a girl is not my niece's problem. And they should not have to have you in the washroom nor locker room.

Does being transgender mean a fella is gay? I don't think it does and a straight trans has no business seeing my nieces naked, nor should my nieces have to relieve themselves a couple feet away from somebody with a penis.

Bubbles

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2016, 05:17:57 PM »
If you have a penis then you change in the boys locker room for physical ed class, because you want to be a girl is not my niece's problem. And they should not have to have you in the washroom nor locker room.

Does being transgender mean a fella is gay? I don't think it does and a straight trans has no business seeing my nieces naked, nor should my nieces have to relieve themselves a couple feet away from somebody with a penis.

Locker rooms are a bit different though, people tend to shower and change. Toilet cubicals are different as they are private.

If women had to sit in full view with other women changing tampons most women wouldn't like it.


The Romans all used to sit round in full view  and it was a social event.

Women's toilets are private places even if there is a gap under the door and above

Men with their urinals are more public, women don't even want other women in the same room or cubical.

Outside or in a different cubical is fine

Transgender is fine, small boys with mum is fine.

« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 05:23:01 PM by Rose »

Owlswing

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2016, 07:18:33 PM »

Hey, have you got CCTV installed here, or summat?   No peekin'!


Dammit! Sussed! How did you guess? Can I have my cameras back please?
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Hope

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2016, 08:53:13 PM »
It is Christian because it is based on their claims that transgender is unnatural and not how God intended people to be.

That has its roots in their religious belief.
I think you could claim that it doesn't have its roots in a religious belief but that the religious belief has roots in an understanding of human value, worth and purpose.
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Hope

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2016, 09:08:55 PM »
Sorry Humph but is IS about Chritianity - the Christian God loves everyone - except homosexuals, transsexuals, lesbians, bi-sexuals, Jews, Muslims, children (he lets them get cancers and various other obscene diseases), the elderly (whose passing he can and in some cases does make a most unpleasant experience), he murders his followers and those who do not follow him indiscriminately with all kinds of "natural" disasters - "natural" dusaters which, if he is as all-powerful as Christians say he is, he could prevent!

Chritianity is not about who their God loves but who he does not and who he tells his followers not to love.
You really do have a weird understanding of Christianity, Owl (or even of Judeo-Christian thought).  The whole Bible tells about God loves all humanity, and does so, so much, that he initially chooses a pretty insignificant people-group to act as witnesses to that love.  He didn't choose the people of Israel on the strength of their track-record, or power, or even influence.  He chose them for a purpose.

Yes, they, and especially their leaders, messed things up.  Instead of developing processes (based on God's laws) that empowered and freed people, they developed processes that more and more hamstrung the people.  For instance, the famous verse which records Jesus lambasting the religious leaders because they had failed to realise that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Jesus than lived and died to show this love of humanity; by offering that as a means of humanity re-establishing relationship with Him.  Again, I am sure that there are those who would call themselves Christian who would fail in that purpose because they dislike or even hate certain people including, but not exclusively, those you have listed.

If you can find a passage in the Bible that tells us that we should hate anyone - whether in your list or not - (and uses language that cannot legitimately be used in any other way) perhaps you can post it.  I'd remind you, however, that many of the most commonly presented examples (such as hating their father/mother/brother/sister) have long been shown to be false, because of the breadth of uses of the relevant verb in both biblical and non-biblical contexts.
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Owlswing

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2016, 10:36:46 PM »
You really do have a weird understanding of Christianity, Owl (or even of Judeo-Christian thought).  The whole Bible tells about God loves all humanity, and does so, so much, that he initially chooses a pretty insignificant people-group to act as witnesses to that love.  He didn't choose the people of Israel on the strength of their track-record, or power, or even influence.  He chose them for a purpose.

Yes, they, and especially their leaders, messed things up.  Instead of developing processes (based on God's laws) that empowered and freed people, they developed processes that more and more hamstrung the people.  For instance, the famous verse which records Jesus lambasting the religious leaders because they had failed to realise that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Jesus than lived and died to show this love of humanity; by offering that as a means of humanity re-establishing relationship with Him.  Again, I am sure that there are those who would call themselves Christian who would fail in that purpose because they dislike or even hate certain people including, but not exclusively, those you have listed.

If you can find a passage in the Bible that tells us that we should hate anyone - whether in your list or not - (and uses language that cannot legitimately be used in any other way) perhaps you can post it.  I'd remind you, however, that many of the most commonly presented examples (such as hating their father/mother/brother/sister) have long been shown to be false, because of the breadth of uses of the relevant verb in both biblical and non-biblical contexts.

What I quoted is the views and attitudes that the Christian church of today promotes - Christian woman rapping against trans people, promotes the exlusion of gays from the clergy, and all the other negatives that you and others on here are quick to ignore.

Modern Christianity, if I listen to you, has moved way away from what Christ taught; and; if I listen to Sassy, it, modern Chrsitianity cannot even agree on what its beknighted book of rules says, even down to not being able to agree if it was translated correctly while not even being able to agree on what books or papers it should be translated froim or from what bloody language!

What proportion of the total UK parish clergy are men? What proportion of parish church goers are men? Should these not be the same, and should this not tranlate all the way up to Archbishop level.

The Church is, in places, still implacably against SSM.

The Christian Church in the 21st century is a screwed up mess of politics and sexism and racism that must have Christ spinning in his grave, or his throne at the right hand of God - whchever you believe.

If this forum is anything to go by, having people like ~TW~, Sassy, Ad_Orientum, Alan Burns, OMW, and Vlad promoting it, it it probably even more messed up that it outwardly appears.
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An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2016, 10:50:54 PM »
women don't even want other women in the same room or cubical.

...are you sure?

Now, the Infinity club in Manchester has installed double cubicles or "twobicles" for female customers. So popular are they that the queues are enormous, even when other, single cubicles are free.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/aug/31/gender.uk1
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Owlswing

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2016, 01:06:46 AM »
...are you sure?

Now, the Infinity club in Manchester has installed double cubicles or "twobicles" for female customers. So popular are they that the queues are enormous, even when other, single cubicles are free.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/aug/31/gender.uk1

That is only because in a two-seater it is easier to whisper about "that woman's God-awful dress sense" rather than having to wait until outside or shout it between two cubilclkes!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Bubbles

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2016, 08:05:23 AM »
...are you sure?

Now, the Infinity club in Manchester has installed double cubicles or "twobicles" for female customers. So popular are they that the queues are enormous, even when other, single cubicles are free.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/aug/31/gender.uk1

Good grief!   :o

I think I'll stick with my private single cubical  ;)

These younguns, nowadays whatever next?

Fortunately I'm too long in the tooth for swanky nightclubs,  ::) so hopefully I can avoid those.

 ;D


Bubbles

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2016, 08:07:51 AM »
That is only because in a two-seater it is easier to whisper about "that woman's God-awful dress sense" rather than having to wait until outside or shout it between two cubilclkes!

Sounds more like they don't want their mates to escape while they are in the loo.

Women usually heading to the loo in twos or threes.

Heaven forbid they should be alone in there  ::)


Owlswing

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2016, 08:37:01 AM »
Good grief!   :o

I think I'll stick with my private single cubical  ;)

These younguns, nowadays whatever next?

Fortunately I'm too long in the tooth for swanky nightclubs,  ::) so hopefully I can avoid those.

 ;D


Younguns! There is the point!

The young are, usually, the ones who are pushing for change, SSM, sexual equality in just about everything, gay rights and it is us oldies who are seeing our values being amended. The younguns are trying to change the world they live in to the world they want to live in - just as we did when we were the younguns.

The younguns do not see trans people as the danger that some oldies do, and by oldies I mean mainly those over about 30.

It is the young who are rejecting the established religions (except Islam) for religions like Buddhism or no religion at all.

My daughter (22) had some of her friends over the other week and they asked what I was looking at on my computer - this forum - and they read quite a few of the threads and I am not going to repeat the comments that were made about some of the opinions expressed here - some I agreed with, others I most certainly did not. When I stated which of their opinions I was in disagreement with I got the comment that it was not surprising as I was so much older than they and values were changing, not always for the better but they were changing -quote "especially in matters of religion and personal relationships".

I am just glad that kids today can think for themselves, that in more and more instances they are rejecting the doctrines that their parents hold as sacrosanct, some of which are being show to be in need of change or rejection, especially the more dogmatic ones - in all ares of life and living.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Shaker

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2016, 09:06:51 AM »
My daughter (22) had some of her friends over the other week and they asked what I was looking at on my computer - this forum - and they read quite a few of the threads and I am not going to repeat the comments that were made about some of the opinions expressed here
Oh, I wish you would ;)
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Rhiannon

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2016, 09:16:13 AM »
Better yet, get them to join...