Author Topic: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?  (Read 17639 times)

Bubbles

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2016, 01:31:58 PM »

Younguns! There is the point!

The young are, usually, the ones who are pushing for change, SSM, sexual equality in just about everything, gay rights and it is us oldies who are seeing our values being amended. The younguns are trying to change the world they live in to the world they want to live in - just as we did when we were the younguns.

The younguns do not see trans people as the danger that some oldies do, and by oldies I mean mainly those over about 30.

It is the young who are rejecting the established religions (except Islam) for religions like Buddhism or no religion at all.

My daughter (22) had some of her friends over the other week and they asked what I was looking at on my computer - this forum - and they read quite a few of the threads and I am not going to repeat the comments that were made about some of the opinions expressed here - some I agreed with, others I most certainly did not. When I stated which of their opinions I was in disagreement with I got the comment that it was not surprising as I was so much older than they and values were changing, not always for the better but they were changing -quote "especially in matters of religion and personal relationships".

I am just glad that kids today can think for themselves, that in more and more instances they are rejecting the doctrines that their parents hold as sacrosanct, some of which are being show to be in need of change or rejection, especially the more dogmatic ones - in all ares of life and living.

I draw the line at sharing the same cubical with anyone, some things are private.

It probably is an age thing.

I have no issues with transgender using the ladies, I do have an issue with the denial of my private space while actually on the toilet.










« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 01:38:59 PM by Rose »

Hope

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2016, 05:25:41 PM »
As I have said before - you are perfectly happy to rant against my beliefs - as in this post - but will whinge, whine, moan, complain, whimper and sneer and refuse to accept retaliation in kind!

Quit whinging and return to the real world from your Christian Cloud-Cuckoo-Land!
I think the issue is that many of your premises, from which you start such threads, are wrong - and so people want to make sure that the assumptions you use are challenged.
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Owlswing

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2016, 05:35:07 PM »
I think the issue is that many of your premises, from which you start such threads, are wrong - and so people want to make sure that the assumptions you use are challenged.

The woman in the video is a Christian, most of the anti-Trans anti-gay rhetotic surfacing in the US Presidential election and in various State laws are based upon quoted Christian teaching!

Separation of Chruch and State in the US is largely a myth!
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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2016, 05:59:02 PM »
What I quoted is the views and attitudes that the Christian church of today promotes - Christian woman rapping against trans people, promotes the exlusion of gays from the clergy, and all the other negatives that you and others on here are quick to ignore.
As I say, your assumptions are wrong, Owl.  Simple.  There may be some groupings who exclude gays or tans - but when one remembers that there are ordained gay men in the Church of England (and have been for several decades), as well as other denominations it would seem that "What (you) quoted is the views and attitudes that the Christian church of today promotes" is a minority opinion at best.  Then, you say 'Christian woman rapping against trans people'.  Again, are you suggesting that what 1 (one) Christian says/sings about is mainstream?  Finally, on this paragraph, which "all the other negatives ... quick to ignore" would those be?

Quote
Modern Christianity, if I listen to you, has moved way away from what Christ taught; and; if I listen to Sassy, it, modern Chrsitianity cannot even agree on what its beknighted book of rules says, even down to not being able to agree if it was translated correctly while not even being able to agree on what books or papers it should be translated froim or from what bloody language!
I would agree that the Church has, during the last 2000 years "moved way away from what Christ taught" - hence things like the Inquisition, the accretion of wealth, sexual and other abuse of parishoners, etc - but I would also suggest that (partly because of the loss of nominal believers, for whom the traditions were often more important than the principles taught by Jesus) modern Christianity is probably closer to what Jesus taught than has been the case for some centuries.

Quote
What proportion of the total UK parish clergy are men? What proportion of parish church goers are men? Should these not be the same, and should this not tranlate all the way up to Archbishop level.
OK, according to the Guardian, 11 Feb 2014

Quote
Between 2002 and 2012, the number of female full-time clergy has increased by 41% from 1,262 to 1,781.

Simultaneously, the number of full-time males has dropped from 7,920 to 6,017, meaning women now make up roughly one in five members of full-time clergy (but only one-in-seven of those in incumbent posts such as vicars and priests-in-charge).

Just under half of part-time clergy are women and over half of the 3,148 ministers who support themselves are too.
So, yes there is a slight imbalance, though if you look at the make up of General Synod and diocesan synods, the mix is fairly equal - perhaps even more women.  I believe that the issue of women in church leadership has been skewed by 2 issues.  One is the fact that there would appear to have been a number of women in leadership prior to the Church being adopted by the Romans in the 4th century; and secondly, the resultant male-dominated elite that runs counter to Jesus' teachings. 

The idea that a church that has 2 Archbishops has to share those between male and female smacks too much, in my view, of quotas.  I'd rather have the two people best suited for the roles at any given time.  If my father and others had had their way back in the 60s, the CofE would have women clergy long before it actually did; ironically, it was women who often voted the idea down in local synods.


Quote
The Church is, in places, still implacably against SSM.
And there is good doctrinal reasoning for this, in the same way that the church is, in places, still implacably against wrongdoing.

Quote
The Christian Church in the 21st century is a screwed up mess of politics and sexism and racism that must have Christ spinning in his grave, or his throne at the right hand of God - whchever you believe.
Unfortunately, the church is made up of people, and wherever people come together in this type of way, there are going to be flaws and problems like this.  These issues certainly aren't unique to Christianity and the Church.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 06:38:02 PM by Hope »
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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2016, 06:04:59 PM »
The woman in the video is a Christian, most of the anti-Trans anti-gay rhetotic surfacing in the US Presidential election and in various State laws are based upon quoted Christian teaching!
Since Jesus didn't once teach about transgender issues, people have to extrapolate from the teaching he did give.  As I'm sure you'd agree, one can mis-extrapolate - something that the Church has done at various points in its history.

Quote
Separation of Chruch and State in the US is largely a myth!
You haven't only just realised this?  It's been obvious for generations!!
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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2016, 06:13:48 PM »

Younguns! There is the point!

The young are, usually, the ones who are pushing for change, SSM, sexual equality in just about everything, gay rights and it is us oldies who are seeing our values being amended. The younguns are trying to change the world they live in to the world they want to live in - just as we did when we were the younguns.
A quick question, owl.  Did every change that we wanted to see when we were young prove to be a sensible change?  Wasn't it the case that we often had to listen to the wisdom of those older and more experienced than us?  Obviously, young people are always going to push the boundaries, but that doesn't necessitate their being right.

Quote
The younguns do not see trans people as the danger that some oldies do, and by oldies I mean mainly those over about 30.
Are you admitting to seeing trans people as a danger?  Can't say that I have ever felt this way.

Quote
I am just glad that kids today can think for themselves, that in more and more instances they are rejecting the doctrines that their parents hold as sacrosanct, some of which are being show to be in need of change or rejection, especially the more dogmatic ones - in all ares of life and living.
But are they able to think for themselves, Owl?  The phenomenon of peer pressure has always been around, but my experience of working with young people is that it is more powerful that it has ever been before.  In other words, they simply follow the crowd, as opposed to thinking for themselves.
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SqueakyVoice

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2016, 07:19:42 PM »
As I say, your assumptions are wrong, Owl.  Simple.  There may be some groupings who exclude gays or tans - but when one remembers that there are ordained gay men in the Church of England (and have been for several decades),
Those would be the gay men who get sacked if they marry their partners?

Hypocritical doesn't begin to cover it.

Owlswing

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2016, 09:37:15 PM »

As I say, your assumptions are wrong, Owl.  Simple.  There may be some groupings who exclude gays or tans - but when one remembers that there are ordained gay men in the Church of England (and have been for several decades), as well as other denominations it would seem that "What (you) quoted is the views and attitudes that the Christian church of today promotes" is a minority opinion at best.  Then, you say 'Christian woman rapping against trans people'.  Again, are you suggesting that what 1 (one) Christian says/sings about is mainstream?  Finally, on this paragraph, which "all the other negatives ... quick to ignore" would those be?


The other negatives - the inability to on just about anything relating to what Christianity really is. How many sects and sub-sects are there? Christianity holds itsellf, as Sassy never tires of telling anyone who is still listening, to be the one true divine truth, and each and every oine of the sects and sub-sects claims the same thing so which one IS the one true truth?. Ad_O's? Sassy's? Yours?

The systematic indoctrination of children from an early age and its insistance on being allowed to continue to do in schools.

The continued reliance on a book that contains more contradictions than you can poke a stick at and to provide all kinds of arguments in attempts to prove it not so when these contradictions are pointed out.

Quote

I would agree that the Church has, during the last 2000 years "moved way away from what Christ taught" - hence things like the Inquisition, the accretion of wealth, sexual and other abuse of parishoners, etc - but I would also suggest that (partly because of the loss of nominal believers, for whom the traditions were often more important than the principles taught by Jesus) modern Christianity is probably closer to what Jesus taught than has been the case for some centuries.


Including the refusal to allow the criminal prosecution of paedophile priests, in fact taking the sztrongest possible steps to prevent such prosecutions, and the covering up of the activities of the murderous nuns of the Magdalene Laundries until all the offenders were dead.

Catholicism is still Christianity.

Quote

OK, according to the Guardian, 11 Feb 2014

Quote

Between 2002 and 2012, the number of female full-time clergy has increased by 41% from 1,262 to 1,781.

Simultaneously, the number of full-time males has dropped from 7,920 to 6,017, meaning women now make up roughly one in five members of full-time clergy (but only one-in-seven of those in incumbent posts such as vicars and priests-in-charge).

Just under half of part-time clergy are women and over half of the 3,148 ministers who support themselves are too.

End quote

So, yes there is a slight imbalance, though if you look at the make up of General Synod and diocesan synods, the mix is fairly equal - perhaps even more women.  I believe that the issue of women in church leadership has been skewed by 2 issues.  One is the fact that there would appear to have been a number of women in leadership prior to the Church being adopted by the Romans in the 4th century; and secondly, the resultant male-dominated elite that runs counter to Jesus' teachings. 

The idea that a church that has 2 Archbishops has to share those between male and female smacks too much, in my view, of quotas.  I'd rather have the two people best suited for the roles at any given time.  If my father and others had had their way back in the 60s, the CofE would have women clergy long before it actually did; ironically, it was women who often voted the idea down in local synods.


You entirely miss my point; which was that, surely, in these days of sexual equaltity the percentage of male to female priests should match the percentage s of male and female members of congregations.

Quote

And there is good doctrinal reasoning for this, in the same way that the church is, in places, still implacably against wrongdoing.


Good doctrinal reasons . . . yeah, nice wriggle - but it is is still the norm for most Christians to condemn gays and trans because they do not conform to the way in which God separated hiumans into male and female and God outranks Jesus so his word takes precedence - see Leviticus 20:13.

Quote

Quote

Since Jesus didn't once teach about transgender issues, people have to extrapolate from the teaching he did give.  As I'm sure you'd agree, one can mis-extrapolate - something that the Church has done at various points in its history.


No extrapolation needed - see Leviticus 20:13

Quote

A quick question, owl.  Did every change that we wanted to see when we were young prove to be a sensible change?  Wasn't it the case that we often had to listen to the wisdom of those older and more experienced than us?  Obviously, young people are always going to push the boundaries, but that doesn't necessitate their being right.


So you are saying that everything now is exactly the same as it was when I was twenty or so - nothing can change just in case the oldies now are right! I hope not - monumental cock-ups are not the sole prerogative of the young.

Quote

Are you admitting to seeing trans people as a danger?  Can't say that I have ever felt this way.


No! No way! One, for a very very very personal reason, and two, from age twenty to age 30 I lived in a community in which the gays, the trans and the lesbians far outnumbered the straights.   
 
Quote

ut are they able to think for themselves, Owl?  The phenomenon of peer pressure has always been around, but my experience of working with young people is that it is more powerful that it has ever been before.  In other words, they simply follow the crowd, as opposed to thinking for themselves.


So today's youngsters are a bunch of sheep driven by the sheepdogs of peer pressure?

Hope, you can respond to these points or not, your choice, but do not expect me to respond to your responses, though others are, of course, free to do so.The headache that banging my head against the stonewall of your inability to consider, much less accept, that Christianity might be, in even the minutest particle, wrong and someone else's faith be right is something that I am no longer prepared to suffer.
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Leonard James

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2016, 11:47:56 AM »
The other negatives - the inability to on just about anything relating to what Christianity really is. How many sects and sub-sects are there? Christianity holds itsellf, as Sassy never tires of telling anyone who is still listening, to be the one true divine truth, and each and every oine of the sects and sub-sects claims the same thing so which one IS the one true truth?. Ad_O's? Sassy's? Yours?

The systematic indoctrination of children from an early age and its insistance on being allowed to continue to do in schools.

The continued reliance on a book that contains more contradictions than you can poke a stick at and to provide all kinds of arguments in attempts to prove it not so when these contradictions are pointed out.

Including the refusal to allow the criminal prosecution of paedophile priests, in fact taking the sztrongest possible steps to prevent such prosecutions, and the covering up of the activities of the murderous nuns of the Magdalene Laundries until all the offenders were dead.

Catholicism is still Christianity.

You entirely miss my point; which was that, surely, in these days of sexual equaltity the percentage of male to female priests should match the percentage s of male and female members of congregations.

Good doctrinal reasons . . . yeah, nice wriggle - but it is is still the norm for most Christians to condemn gays and trans because they do not conform to the way in which God separated hiumans into male and female and God outranks Jesus so his word takes precedence - see Leviticus 20:13.

No extrapolation needed - see Leviticus 20:13

So you are saying that everything now is exactly the same as it was when I was twenty or so - nothing can change just in case the oldies now are right! I hope not - monumental cock-ups are not the sole prerogative of the young.

No! No way! One, for a very very very personal reason, and two, from age twenty to age 30 I lived in a community in which the gays, the trans and the lesbians far outnumbered the straights.   
 
So today's youngsters are a bunch of sheep driven by the sheepdogs of peer pressure?

Hope, you can respond to these points or not, your choice, but do not expect me to respond to your responses, though others are, of course, free to do so.The headache that banging my head against the stonewall of your inability to consider, much less accept, that Christianity might be, in even the minutest particle, wrong and someone else's faith be right is something that I am no longer prepared to suffer.

All splendidly observed, Owl. The last paragraph is exactly how I feel about Hope, Sass, TW, BA and a few others.

Unfortunately I find myself drawn to answer when their replies are particularly daft.

Owlswing

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2016, 12:33:49 PM »
All splendidly observed, Owl. The last paragraph is exactly how I feel about Hope, Sass, TW, BA and a few others.

Unfortunately I find myself drawn to answer when their replies are particularly daft.

LJ

Ain't that the truth!

Somehow, though, the most irritating of the group is the one left out of your list, the biggedt little troll/WUM, who posts not biblical crap but snorks.

It is the MO of these to get you to post just so they have something to tell you off for, to belittle you for, to abuse you for.

Oh, and you can add the Apostle of Orthodoxy as well.

For me, it is a good job that there are people like you, Shaker, Rhiannon who make staying worthwhile.
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Leonard James

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2016, 12:53:20 PM »
LJ

Ain't that the truth!

Somehow, though, the most irritating of the group is the one left out of your list, the biggedt little troll/WUM, who posts not biblical crap but snorks.

It is the MO of these to get you to post just so they have something to tell you off for, to belittle you for, to abuse you for.

Oh, and you can add the Apostle of Orthodoxy as well.

For me, it is a good job that there are people like you, Shaker, Rhiannon who make staying worthwhile.

Aw shucks! Come here and give me a big hug!

((((Owly))))

 :)

Owlswing

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2016, 03:49:14 PM »
Aw shucks! Come here and give me a big hug!

((((Owly))))

 :)

Please send location and taxi fare and you're on!


((((LJ))))

 8)
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2016, 03:51:58 PM »
Please send location and taxi fare and you're on!


((((LJ))))

 8)



That might be an expensive taxi ride

Owlswing

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2016, 03:55:40 PM »

That might be an expensive taxi ride


I suppose that depends upon what happens at the destination and with whom - sometimes that changes an expensive ride into a dirt cheap one! And sometimes it turns a cheap ride into one you regret for the rest of your life.
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Leonard James

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2016, 04:09:49 PM »
I suppose that depends upon what happens at the destination and with whom - sometimes that changes an expensive ride into a dirt cheap one! And sometimes it turns a cheap ride into one you regret for the rest of your life.

My dear, wise Owl! In this case it would be a rather long boat voyage, and all I can offer is a warm reception, a mainly sunny climate and a sympathetic shoulder + lotsa vino.  :D

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2016, 04:14:36 PM »
Those would be the gay men who get sacked if they marry their partners?

Hypocritical doesn't begin to cover it.
I'd agree 'hypocritical' doesn't begin to cover it.  After all, it's not hypocritical in the first place.  Remember that church law states that you can be ordained as a homosexual (be that gay or lesbian), but that marriage is by definition between one man and one woman.  No hypocrisy there.
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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2016, 04:55:43 PM »
Same-sex marriage however is a secular affair, a component of civil law that has nothing to do with church law.
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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2016, 05:01:46 PM »
The issue here has nothing to do with Christianity, it is a matter of "degendered" lavatories.

Quite frankly I would side with a female who does not want to change a tampon whilst separated from a male who wants to be a female, by only a small partition wall which reaches neither the floor, or the ceiling.
In the residential halls in my University, all of the toilet blocks were unisex. Nobody - male or female - had a problem with it.
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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2016, 05:05:28 PM »
I have no problem with a transgender person using a female toilet cubical. However, I wouldn't like to use a uni-sex loo, where there were urinals as well as cubicals, as we had to do in France once.

Why not? If you are uncomfortable with using the urinals, go into one of the cubicles.

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2016, 05:28:07 PM »
Same-sex marriage however is a secular affair, a component of civil law that has nothing to do with church law.
Sorry, Shakes, but Church law states that marriage is between a man and a woman.  It also states that people who are ordained are to abide by such law.
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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2016, 05:29:40 PM »
Sorry, Shakes, but Church law states that marriage is between a man and a woman.

But fortunately, marriage in this country is not defined by Church law.

Quote
It also states that people who are ordained are to abide by such law.
So what?
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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2016, 05:34:21 PM »
Sorry, Shakes, but Church law states that marriage is between a man and a woman.  It also states that people who are ordained are to abide by such law.

That's because the church loses its humanity when it comes to homosexuality. The hypocricy is that you claim to do so out of love.

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2016, 05:35:56 PM »
But fortunately, marriage in this country is not defined by Church law.
Unless you are part of that Church legal process. 

Quote
So what?
So, I assume that you don't believe that a train driver has to abide by the rules that control that profession?
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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2016, 05:38:56 PM »
That's because the church loses its humanity when it comes to homosexuality. The hypocricy is that you claim to do so out of love.
Oddly enough, in view of the number of people we have had in our church congregation who have committed sin over the years, I find this suggestion rather pathetic.  Humanitariaism doesn't automatically allow every form of behaviour.  It also involves discipline.
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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2016, 05:39:05 PM »

My dear, wise Owl! In this case it would be a rather long boat voyage, and all I can offer is a warm reception, a mainly sunny climate and a sympathetic shoulder + lotsa vino.  :D


When I win the Lottery - you're on!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!