The Deceit of the EU.

[Jack Knave]

Why the EU is a lie. Well worth a read.

http://www.ukipdaily.com/eu-referendum-punters-guide-uk-not-just-scotland/


"Perhaps the motto of the European Union was best articulated by its founding father, Jean Monnet, a French political economist and diplomat revered by Europhiles, who said that:

‘Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.’ "

[Leonard James]

Why the EU is a lie. Well worth a read.

http://www.ukipdaily.com/eu-referendum-punters-guide-uk-not-just-scotland/


"Perhaps the motto of the European Union was best articulated by its founding father, Jean Monnet, a French political economist and diplomat revered by Europhiles, who said that:

‘Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.’ "

That is because most people are happy to accept the partnership with others, providing it doesn't mean giving them something. 

[Jack Knave]

That is because most people are happy to accept the partnership with others, providing it doesn't mean giving them something. 

What's your point with regards the OP?

[Jack Knave]

And also from the link:-

"At this point it’s worth referring to words spoken by the current President of the European Commission (our de facto Head of State), Mr Jean-Claude Juncker, who has said the following at certain times:

‘Monetary policy is a serious issue.  We should discuss this in secret, in the Eurogroup … I’m ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious … I am for secret, dark debates.’

‘We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens.  If no-one kicks up a fuss, because most people don’t understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.’

‘When it becomes serious, you have to lie.’
"

[Leonard James]

What's your point with regards the OP?

I was explaining this :-

‘Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.’ "

[Jack Knave]

I was explaining this :-

‘Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.’ "

But it is giving them something....everything. All their rights, their freedoms, their democracy, their wealth and their self rule. What you are saying is that you think deceit is good!....?

[L.A.]

You know Jack, I was actually starting to take the writer seriously until I read the line:

The only political party that comes anywhere near Libertarianism is UKIP;

UKIP are no different from any other party at heart, they have their own agenda. It might seem superficially libertarian but anyone who believes that individual freedoms will suddenly be transformed for the better if we leave the EU might be would be sadly disillusioned if there were an OUT vote.

The 'oppressive' EU laws certainly limit the freedoms of some people who wish to rip-us-off in some way, but most of these laws are just (fairly boring) tradings standards stuff, but when it comes to personal freedoms, most of the repressive stuff is 'home grown.

[Leonard James]

But it is giving them something....everything. All their rights, their freedoms, their democracy, their wealth and their self rule. What you are saying is that you think deceit is good!....?

Nope. What I am saying is that people are reluctant to help others if it means making do with less themselves.

[Rhiannon]

Any kind of superstate gives me the chills. But the notion that UKIP are a beacon of democracy is risible given Farage's habit of sacking anyone who vaguely disagrees with him.

[L.A.]

Any kind of superstate gives me the chills. But the notion that UKIP are a beacon of democracy is risible given Farage's habit of sacking anyone who vaguely disagrees with him.

The thing that gives me the chills if the prospect of Boris and Nigel leading us into a 'Brave New Little England'

[Udayana]

Yes, the EU may be undemocratic and "deceitful", keeping real motivations and information from those they are supposed to serve, but that can be just as true of national governments.

If the EU were to be scrapped, could we come up and implement a better, more democratic and relevant, union? Seems unlikely as the people that develop the institutions will be from the same civil services that developed the current ones.

Rather than leave, it seems (to me) that it is better to keep battering at the current system forcing incremental improvements until it is more open and democratic. - And persisting with confrontation on those issues which the UK (or other national governments) disagree on.

[Stranger]

Any kind of superstate gives me the chills. But the notion that UKIP are a beacon of democracy is risible given Farage's habit of sacking anyone who vaguely disagrees with him.

IMO an EU superstate is a much less alarming prospect than that of Farage's rabble of parochial Little Englanders (plus smattering of bigoted racists) gaining any sort of power.

Perhaps a United States of Europe would insist the UK adopt a democratic voting system for its parliament and reform its unelected House of Lords? Democracy for the UK! Now that would make a change...

 

[Hope]

IMO an EU superstate is a much less alarming prospect than that of Farage's rabble of parochial Little Englanders (plus smattering of bigoted racists) gaining any sort of power.

Perhaps a United States of Europe would insist the UK adopt a democratic voting system for its parliament and reform its unelected House of Lords? Democracy for the UK! Now that would make a change...

 

But why would the UK (or any other European nation) feel obliged to accept the instructions of a highly undemocratic and opaque organisation such as the current EU?  I'd much prefer the largely transparent democratic process we currently have here in the UK than anything that might be imposed by Europe.  That's not to say that we oughtn't to remain in the EU; if only for the betterment of Europe, we ought to be there and kicking ass.

[Hope]

The thing that gives me the chills if the prospect of Boris and Nigel leading us into a 'Brave New Little England'

Move to Wales, then.  You'll just have a Labour administration that struggles to keep the Health and Education Services functioning properly   

[L.A.]

Move to Wales, then.  You'll just have a Labour administration that struggles to keep the Health and Education Services functioning properly   

They are probably too busy teaching everybody Welsh to bother about trivial things like health care.

[Jack Knave]

You know Jack, I was actually starting to take the writer seriously until I read the line:

The only political party that comes anywhere near Libertarianism is UKIP;

UKIP are no different from any other party at heart, they have their own agenda. It might seem superficially libertarian but anyone who believes that individual freedoms will suddenly be transformed for the better if we leave the EU might be would be sadly disillusioned if there were an OUT vote.

The 'oppressive' EU laws certainly limit the freedoms of some people who wish to rip-us-off in some way, but most of these laws are just (fairly boring) tradings standards stuff, but when it comes to personal freedoms, most of the repressive stuff is 'home grown.

Strictly speaking UKIP isn't a party but a movement going on to a party. This is what is causing the tensions inside it. Carswell is a libertarian and this is the discourse that is going on in UKIP; what hue of libertarian they should be, how to structure it. The fact is if a party is pro-EU it is not libertarian but dictatorial.

No one is saying that if we leave the EU we will all be gloriously in a wonderland of freedom and pure joy. What they are saying is that staying in the EU will mean being part of a system who's ultimate aim is for the millions of people to be governed and oppressed by a ruling elite. Where democracy is suspended and no one can have a meaningful say, if any, of how their society should be run.

And why is it home grown. Don't you think those leaders, who all chat to each other behind closed doors in Brussels, don't work together to line their own pockets by using the powers they have invested in them by Brussels to strength the monster that is the EU. In other words they have been bribed to pull the EU party line.

[Jack Knave]

Nope. What I am saying is that people are reluctant to help others if it means making do with less themselves.

What has that got to do with my OP? You sound as though you are just ranting.

[Leonard James]

What has that got to do with my OP? You sound as though you are just ranting.

It was a reply to the OP. Check back and you will see.

[Jack Knave]

Any kind of superstate gives me the chills. But the notion that UKIP are a beacon of democracy is risible given Farage's habit of sacking anyone who vaguely disagrees with him.

As I have said else where, UKIP is a Movement going on to be a political party and as Farage is the force that shaped that Movement he rules as he pleases. However, everything will change once UKIP becomes a party - I don't think Farage is much of political animal and will gladly stand aside; especially if the Leave campaign win. As I'm not overly political I might go cold on them once they do that.

[Jack Knave]

The thing that gives me the chills if the prospect of Boris and Nigel leading us into a 'Brave New Little England'

The Brave New World is what the EU is about; USSR 2.0. Some people are just too stupid to see it!!!

[L.A.]

Strictly speaking UKIP isn't a party but a movement going on to a party. This is what is causing the tensions inside it. Carswell is a libertarian and this is the discourse that is going on in UKIP; what hue of libertarian they should be, how to structure it. The fact is if a party is pro-EU it is not libertarian but dictatorial.

No one is saying that if we leave the EU we will all be gloriously in a wonderland of freedom and pure joy. What they are saying is that staying in the EU will mean being part of a system who's ultimate aim is for the millions of people to be governed and oppressed by a ruling elite. Where democracy is suspended and no one can have a meaningful say, if any, of how their society should be run.

And why is it home grown. Don't you think those leaders, who all chat to each other behind closed doors in Brussels, don't work together to line their own pockets by using the powers they have invested in them by Brussels to strength the monster that is the EU. In other words they have been bribed to pull the EU party line.

When you look at the recent laws that seriously impact on personal freedom, you realise that none of them have anything to do with the EU. Most of this stuff relates to anti-terrorism and racist and religious crime. Now I'm not saying that any of this is necessarily wrong, but it often impacts quite significantly on our freedom of speech and as such has a much greater effect on our personal freedom than, for example the  Efficiency requirements for new hot-water boilers fired with liquid or gaseous fuels directive

Of course if you are a Sun reader, you might feel that having our inalienable right to sell vegetables by the pound curtailed is reason enough for brexit.

[Jack Knave]

IMO an EU superstate is a much less alarming prospect than that of Farage's rabble of parochial Little Englanders (plus smattering of bigoted racists) gaining any sort of power.

Perhaps a United States of Europe would insist the UK adopt a democratic voting system for its parliament and reform its unelected House of Lords? Democracy for the UK! Now that would make a change...

 

What a deluded statement. You sound like a theist. How can an undemocratic EU insist on what you deem to be a more democratic voting system? That would be wholly two faced.

As for your statement about UKIP and Farage that too is a deluded lie.

[Jack Knave]

It was a reply to the OP. Check back and you will see.

But it was an obscure and oblique statement on it and one which applies to the EU ruling classes and technocrats, hence the appalling way Greece was treated. Germany and Merkel are doing exactly as you say people act and the elites of Brussels too. What makes you think they are saints? And where is the rule of law to be applied to them so as to provide the necessary brakes on the moral hazards they do and will inflict on the people?

[Jack Knave]

When you look at the recent laws that seriously impact on personal freedom, you realise that none of them have anything to do with the EU. Most of this stuff relates to anti-terrorism and racist and religious crime. Now I'm not saying that any of this is necessarily wrong, but it often impacts quite significantly on our freedom of speech and as such has a much greater effect on our personal freedom than, for example the  Efficiency requirements for new hot-water boilers fired with liquid or gaseous fuels directive

Of course if you are a Sun reader, you might feel that having our inalienable right to sell vegetables by the pound curtailed is reason enough for brexit.

Laughable jab in the dark in trying to guess that I'm a Sun reader, which I'm not.

Tell me LA, if you are so bright, what do you think Ever-Closer-Union means? And how this relates to freedom issues, not just in the present but in the future, if the EU is allowed to implement its wet dream in full.

In other words things like the EAW.

http://www.ukipdaily.com/history-of-the-eus-attempt-to-take-over-uk-criminal-justice/

[L.A.]

Laughable jab in the dark in trying to guess that I'm a Sun reader, which I'm not.

Tell me LA, if you are so bright, what do you think Ever-Closer-Union means? And how this relates to freedom issues, not just in the present but in the future, if the EU is allowed to implement its wet dream in full.

In other words things like the EAW.

http://www.ukipdaily.com/history-of-the-eus-attempt-to-take-over-uk-criminal-justice/

Accuse you of being a Sun reader Jack?  . . . perish the thought    I mentioned that only because it is an old favourite.

The 'Ever Closer Union' phrase is to be deleted, but it will always be a fact that we share a common culture and common values with our European partners and the EU is a valuable mechanism to protect those values in an ever threatening world.

P.S. I'm not sure how 'Eastern Acoustic Works' relates to the argument?