Have you all sent back the EU brochure yet?

[jeremyp]

No, it won't - the Royal Mail is now a company owned by shareholders.

Won't they try to extract the cost out of the addressee?

[Hope]

Less than 20p a person to try to get them informed about the most important vote in their lives? I'd say it is damned well spent.

The problem is that some here and in the system don't want them to be informed, jeremy   

[jakswan]

The point I was trying to make (badly) is that the idea that leaving the EU will deliver some kind of golden democracy seems pretty hollow, hence the quotation marks.

Who has claimed it would be a golden democracy?

[ippy]

Less than 20p a person to try to get them informed about the most important vote in their lives? I'd say it is damned well spent.

Fine J P now spend £9,000,000 on a let's leave Europe brochure too.

ippy
 

[jeremyp]

Fine J P now spend £9,000,000 on a let's leave Europe brochure too.

ippy

Why? We can't leave Europe.

[Rhiannon]

Who has claimed it would be a golden democracy?

Ippy said we can get democracy back by leaving the EU. I don't think whatever is left is going to be any more democratic. But the costs will most likely be enormous.

[Stranger]

Why? We can't leave Europe.

 

http://tinyurl.com/hgetq4j

[ippy]

Why? We can't leave Europe.

I think we can and this is something we will never agree about.

ippy

[ippy]

Ippy said we can get democracy back by leaving the EU. I don't think whatever is left is going to be any more democratic. But the costs will most likely be enormous.

We don't agree Rhi.

ippy

[jakswan]

Ippy said we can get democracy back by leaving the EU. I don't think whatever is left is going to be any more democratic. But the costs will most likely be enormous.

Did Ippy claim it would be 'golden'?

Its a fair point, I fully accept there is a potential risk to the economy and that is a price we have to pay for a more democratically accountable system of government.

We just simply have different views on the potential risks and the rewards, which I think is fine. 

[Stranger]

Its a fair point, I fully accept there is a potential risk to the economy and that is a price we have to pay for a more democratically accountable system of government.

Why do you think there would be any more democratic accountability, if we left the EU?

[Hope]

Its a fair point, I fully accept there is a potential risk to the economy and that is a price we have to pay for a more democratically accountable system of government.

What evidence do you have that Britain out of the EU would have a more democratically accountable system of government, jakswan?

[jakswan]

What evidence do you have that Britain out of the EU would have a more democratically accountable system of government, jakswan?

All policies that applied to Britain would be made in Britain, or devolved to more local governments.

http://sb.snp.org/brochan/democratic-case-for-indepen.html

You can flip most of that to UK\Euro.

[Stranger]

All policies that applied to Britain would be made in Britain, or devolved to more local governments.

This isn't more democratic accountability, that's just moving some of the accountability away from the EU to the UK.

Why so parochial?

[Hope]

All policies that applied to Britain would be made in Britain, or devolved to more local governments.

http://sb.snp.org/brochan/democratic-case-for-indepen.html

You can flip most of that to UK\Euro.

Those were principles, not practice.  I repeat, do you have any real-life evidence?

[jakswan]

Those were principles, not practice.  I repeat, do you have any real-life evidence?

It is a matter of principle.

By the way irony meter just went off given how many threads you've had to retreat from when asked for evidence.

[ippy]

Did Ippy claim it would be 'golden'?

Its a fair point, I fully accept there is a potential risk to the economy and that is a price we have to pay for a more democratically accountable system of government.

We just simply have different views on the potential risks and the rewards, which I think is fine.

No idea where the golden came from, nothing to do with me?

ippy

[Stranger]

It is a matter of principle.

Yes, it is: parochial Little Englander us-and-them or unity and cooperation.

[jakswan]

Yes, it is: parochial Little Englander us-and-them or unity and cooperation.

I'm Welsh, we cooperate and have unity with many countries on many issues without political union.

Blimey no wonder Leave are winning! 

[ippy]

I'm Welsh, we cooperate and have unity with many countries on many issues without political union.

Blimey no wonder Leave are winning!

I don't mind the Welsh.

ippy

[Stranger]

I'm Welsh, we cooperate and have unity with many countries on many issues without political union.

You fail to say what is wrong with political union.

At what point do you think it becomes a bad thing? Obviously, you don't like the EU level, what about the UK? Wales? Why not break up the whole of the UK into politically independent cities, towns and villages?

[jakswan]

You fail to say what is wrong with political union.

At what point do you think it becomes a bad thing? Obviously, you don't like the EU level, what about the UK? Wales? Why not break up the whole of the UK into politically independent cities, towns and villages?

I think political union should be broken down according to societies that share the same culture, language and where there are practical gains in sharing a macro economic system.

Are you going to be consistent, if we stay and the EU signs us up for TTIP should the US\Euro have political union?

[Hope]

I'm Welsh, we cooperate and have unity with many countries on many issues without political union.

That's right, j; the Welsh have unity with many countries without having political union (other, of course, then England!!)  At least the UK has a lesser degree of political unity with the EU than that!!

[Stranger]

I think political union should be broken down according to societies that share the same culture, language and where there are practical gains in sharing a macro economic system.

This is where we differ on principle. You seem to regard these as somehow insurmountable differences that divide "us" from "them". I regard them as practical obstacles that we should endeavour to overcome. I regard "us and them" thinking as undesirable and counterproductive. I think we should work towards as much unity as possible between the largest numbers possible.

Are you going to be consistent, if we stay and the EU signs us up for TTIP should the US\Euro have political union?

I'm sure we could start an entire separate discussion on TTIP and I think EU/US unity isn't going to happen any time soon. However; is it goal that we should aspire to in the long term? Yes.

As an aside, I have spent some time working in Germany, in the offices of a German owned multinational, and I felt quite at home; I found no great cultural divide. Sure, their native language was different but, interestingly, the only language requirement for working there was English.

[jakswan]

This is where we differ on principle. You seem to regard these as somehow insurmountable differences that divide "us" from "them".

No never said that.

I regard them as practical obstacles that we should endeavour to overcome.

I don't think we should.

I regard "us and them" thinking as undesirable and counterproductive.

You best stop doing it then.

I think we should work towards as much unity as possible between the largest numbers possible.

Which I think is fine but the best economic policy for Germany isn't the same one that should apply to Greece.

I'm sure we could start an entire separate discussion on TTIP and I think EU/US unity isn't going to happen any time soon. However; is it goal that we should aspire to in the long term? Yes.

So you are against any from of devolution, a global centralised bureaucracy your overall aim?

As an aside, I have spent some time working in Germany, in the offices of a German owned multinational, and I felt quite at home; I found no great cultural divide. Sure, their native language was different but, interestingly, the only language requirement for working there was English.

I never claimed there was a cultural divide just that is different.