Have you all sent back the EU brochure yet?

[Stranger]

No never said that.

That's why I said 'seem' - feel free to explain.

I don't think we should.

So, we differ in principle - that's what I said.

You best stop doing it then.

In what way do you think I'm using "them and us" thinking?

So you are against any from of devolution, a global centralised bureaucracy your overall aim?

I didn't say that; of course there should be local, regional and national government - I just regard unity above those levels as desirable. It's about wanting to unite, rather than divide.

[SusanDoris]

There was some ghastly woman in the audience of Question Time last night (I was listening on Five Live) who said, her voice dripping with, well, oozing with, in my opinion, sickly emotion, 'I just want my country back.' She obviously thought that all should agree with her. Yuck!

Fortunately, one of the phone-in voices was from an 18-year-old at university with a fairer view of the future for her generation. 

[jakswan]

That's why I said 'seem' - feel free to explain.

You want me to explain why you seem to think something?

So, we differ in principle - that's what I said.

In what way do you think I'm using "them and us" thinking?

By using the terms, if you don't want to think of it that way then you best stop using those terms.

I didn't say that; of course there should be local, regional and national government - I just regard unity above those levels as desirable. It's about wanting to unite, rather than divide.

I'm confused you want unity but divided?

I'm all for unifying the EU under a free trade agreement but because the economies and politics are so diverse across the EU I think that is a bad idea to have political union. Its not about dividing we have close ties with the USA but I think political union with the US would be crazy.

[Stranger]

You want me to explain why you seem to think something?

Seriously? I suggest going back over the conversation and trying again.

By using the terms, if you don't want to think of it that way then you best stop using those terms.

Right, so if I want to oppose (say) homophobia, I shouldn't actually use the term, otherwise I'd be guilty of homophobia?

I'm confused you want unity but divided?

Sorry if you find multiple levels of government confusing. Being in Wales, I'd have thought you'd be more familiar with it.

[jakswan]

Seriously? I suggest going back over the conversation and trying again.

I'd suggest you do the same.

Right, so if I want to oppose (say) homophobia, I shouldn't actually use the term, otherwise I'd be guilty of homophobia?

That is not a good analogy, if you started talking about us (heterosexuals) and them (homosexuals) that would be divisive. You were the first person to use those terms as follows:-

You seem to regard these as somehow insurmountable differences that divide "us" from "them".

Sorry if you find multiple levels of government confusing. Being in Wales, I'd have thought you'd be more familiar with it.

I know you are struggling to follow I'll try to dumb it down for you.

You want political and economic unity across nation states, as I recall I asked you about EU\US and you replied it should be the 'overall aim'.

Yet you also want devolution which seems inconsistent. Lets take a practical example Greece vote in a government, yet this Government can't enact many of its economic policies because much of its economic policy is dictated by the EU.

Lets use another I think we should be able to introduce a large tariff on Chinese steel to protect workers in this country but we can't because this policy is controlled by the EU. I suppose you want unity with China as well another 'overall aim' of yours?

[Stranger]

I'd suggest you do the same.

I'm more than happy with the way this part of the conversation has gone - I'll leave others to judge.

That is not a good analogy, if you started talking about us (heterosexuals) and them (homosexuals) that would be divisive. You were the first person to use those terms as follows:-

Try to pay attention. This is what was said:-

I regard "us and them" thinking as undesirable and counterproductive.

You best stop doing it then.

In what way do you think I'm using "them and us" thinking?

By using the terms, if you don't want to think of it that way then you best stop using those terms.

Compare to:-

I regard homophobia as undesirable and counterproductive.

You best stop doing it then.

In what way do you think I'm being homophobic?

By using the term, if you don't want to think of it that way then you best stop using the term.

Get it?

I know you are struggling to follow I'll try to dumb it down for you.

You want political and economic unity across nation states, as I recall I asked you about EU\US and you replied it should be the 'overall aim'.

I said it was a goal to aspire to in the long term. I don't see why you have such a problem with multiple layers of government.

The EU is far from perfect and gets quite a lot wrong. The UK is far from perfect and gets quite a lot wrong, too. I don't regard that as a basis to completely abandon either.

[jakswan]

I'm more than happy with the way this part of the conversation has gone - I'll leave others to judge.

Likewise.

I said it was a goal to aspire to in the long term. I don't see why you have such a problem with multiple layers of government.

Please try to pay attention, I do not have a problem with multiple levels of government. You are the one who wants widespread unity as much as possible and wants multiple levels of government there seems to be some inconsistency in your position. 

NHS prescriptions are free in Wales but not in England, do you favour this because it doesn't fit with your unity agenda?

The EU is far from perfect and gets quite a lot wrong. The UK is far from perfect and gets quite a lot wrong, too. I don't regard that as a basis to completely abandon either.

When I forward that argument I'll be sure to respond to it.

The argument I have forwarded is that the British Government should have more control of British borders, British economy, British trade agreements, British laws, etc. You disagree, e.g. you seem to think the economic policy of Greece is best controlled by the EU, trade agreements like TTIP is best negotiated at the EU level.

I think the EU because if its size and structure is undemocratic, and because of the nature of diverse range of countries within it, is unable come up with economic policy and trade agreements that suit all member states.

Please engage with the argument I forward, if you don't understand just ask.

[Hope]

Who has yet to receive the EU brochure mentioned in the thread title?

[floo]

Who has yet to receive the EU brochure mentioned in the thread title?

We haven't had ours.

[Brownie]

I haven't had mine and am beginning to fell left out.

[L.A.]

I think my copy just might have fallen in the bin, together with the rest of the junk mail.

[Hope]

I think my copy just might have fallen in the bin, together with the rest of the junk mail.

Well, don't blame the Government for failing to inform you of their side of the argument, then.

[Stranger]

... I do not have a problem with multiple levels of government. You are the one who wants widespread unity as much as possible and wants multiple levels of government there seems to be some inconsistency in your position. 
...
NHS prescriptions are free in Wales but not in England, do you favour this because it doesn't fit with your unity agenda?

If you can't understand that unity at a higher level doesn't mean uniformity at every level, then I can't help you.

...British Government should have more control of British borders, British economy, British trade agreements, British laws, etc....

Why? Why do you choose 'British' as your chosen tribe to identify with, rather than Welsh or European?

[L.A.]

Well, don't blame the Government for failing to inform you of their side of the argument, then.

I'm quite capable of making my own judgements without propaganda from either side of the argument Hope.

[Hope]

I'm quite capable of making my own judgements without propaganda from either side of the argument Hope.

Assuming that you have got the information to base that judgement on.  Thus far, as far as I can see, all we have been provided with is propaganda and personal opinion.

[jakswan]

If you can't understand that unity at a higher level doesn't mean uniformity at every level, then I can't help you.

I'm asking you to define 'higher level unity' and why its a good thing.

Why? Why do you choose 'British' as your chosen tribe to identify with, rather than Welsh or European?

I'll just repeat what you ignored.

I think the EU because if its size and structure is undemocratic, and because of the nature of diverse range of countries within it, is unable come up with economic policy and trade agreements that suit all member states.

You seem to think the economic policy of Greece is best controlled by the EU, trade agreements like TTIP is best negotiated at the EU level.

[Hope]

... trade agreements like TTIP is best negotiated at the EU level.

I'd suggest that the TTIP idea would be a far more important topic to have been referendum-ing about.  Mind yu, that would have required it to be properly explained and understood.  It seems that the US are adamant that this can't occur.

[L.A.]

Assuming that you have got the information to base that judgement on.  Thus far, as far as I can see, all we have been provided with is propaganda and personal opinion.

Information that appears through the letterbox tends not to be unbiased, whether it is selling pizzas or politics.

[Stranger]

I think the EU because if its size and structure is undemocratic...

Why do you think its size and structure make it undemocratic?

The iniquitous voting system for general elections and the absurd anachorism of the House of Lords, makes the UK undemocratic, IMO.

...and because of the nature of diverse range of countries within it, is unable come up with economic policy and trade agreements that suit all member states.

The trade arrangements seem to be what the leave campaign want to keep - they keep telling us we will be able to negotiate access to the single market.

You seem to think the economic policy of Greece is best controlled by the EU, trade agreements like TTIP is best negotiated at the EU level.

I haven't, as yet, said anything about economic policy. Greece had debt problems and much of what happened was because it was part of, and wanted to remain part of, the Eurozone. This is not a referendum about joining the Euro.

There are parts of the UK (notably Scotland) that don't think the Westminster government's economic policies suit them, and we have devolution. The UK government has far more autonomy in the EU than Scotland does in the UK. So again: what is so special about the UK that means you draw the line there?

[Hope]

Information that appears through the letterbox tends not to be unbiased, whether it is selling pizzas or politics.

Does it?  Not sure that you can call tax-band letters, council-tax and utility bill letters, letters from friends and groups one is associated with, subscription magazines, etc. - which make up the bulk of what comes through my letterbox can be regarded as biased.

Or is it that, because such things run counter to your own opinion, they are biased?

[floo]

I had a dream last night based on this thread! I discovered a woman with a German Shepherd dog trying to remove the EU brochure from my letterbox. When challenged she said that she was trying to save the country from staying in the EU, and offered me her dog as a reward if I voted to leave! I told her I didn't want her dog, and would definitely be voting to stay in the EU, at which point I awoke.

I still haven't had the brochure in reality.

[Hope]

I still haven't had the brochure ...

Likewise.

[L.A.]

Does it?  Not sure that you can call tax-band letters, council-tax and utility bill letters, letters from friends and groups one is associated with, subscription magazines, etc. - which make up the bulk of what comes through my letterbox can be regarded as biased.

Or is it that, because such things run counter to your own opinion, they are biased?

Obviously I'm not referring to communications with friends - but it's a fact of life Hope, that the information that is forced upon you is always biased and generally has some kind of hidden agenda - that's what the advertising industry is all about.

If you want to find some approximation to the truth, you need to do your own digging, preferably using many sources.

[ippy]

Does it?  Not sure that you can call tax-band letters, council-tax and utility bill letters, letters from friends and groups one is associated with, subscription magazines, etc. - which make up the bulk of what comes through my letterbox can be regarded as biased.

Or is it that, because such things run counter to your own opinion, they are biased?

Like I said being able to control our borders on it's own is enough for me Hope, nothing to do with who, it's largely to do with the numbers, there are far to many people comming here as a flood, this flood like speed has to be stemed to manageable proportions and we need to choose who we have here as well, Ausie fashon, nothing to do with race or where the imigrants come from it's to do with the numbers and the skills we need here in the U K and haven't got enough of our own.

Everything I hear about the free movement of E U citizens, doesn't indicate that it will be droped, anytime soon whatever we suggest, well that's fine for them as far as I'm concerned good luck to them, just don't take us here in the U K along with you.

Of course I have other reasons for not wanting to be a part of the E U but as I said the above is enough reason for me on it's own.

I don't suppose that brochure is any more or any less biased than any other, it's against the spirit of fair play, had they spent equal amounts on two brochures one for and one against we would be discussing the facts, rather than more of how those underhanded tory bastards have reverted to type.

ippy

[jakswan]

Why do you think its size and structure make it undemocratic?

It attempts to represent a population that has to wide a range of political views and the EU commission is not directly elected yet initiates legislation.

The iniquitous voting system for general elections and the absurd anachorism of the House of Lords, makes the UK undemocratic, IMO.

Democracy isn't binary, IMO the UK is more democratic than the EU.

The trade arrangements seem to be what the leave campaign want to keep - they keep telling us we will be able to negotiate access to the single market.

A trade agreement between say the US negotiated by the EU, TTIP, and the UK negotiating its own agreement with the US even you can understand is not the same?

I haven't, as yet, said anything about economic policy. Greece had debt problems and much of what happened was because it was part of, and wanted to remain part of, the Eurozone. This is not a referendum about joining the Euro.

We are debating something which you support, 'unity' which you want at 'higher levels', which is your argument for remain. Surely a united currency and economic policy is 'higher level', its a position you seem unable to define much less defend.

There are parts of the UK (notably Scotland) that don't think the Westminster government's economic policies suit them, and we have devolution. The UK government has far more autonomy in the EU than Scotland does in the UK. So again: what is so special about the UK that means you draw the line there?

See previous posts.